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View Full Version : Improving Monkey Grip



Magnus_Samma
2006-11-17, 09:16 AM
I have a guilty pleasure. I love portraying characters carrying around weapons that are unreasonably large, and the Monkey Grip feat complements this perfectly. The problem is that it sucks. I mean, it sucks (oh, I said it again). So the way I see it, we just need to make it less sucky so people will stop yelling at me for using it.

There are two ways we can do this. First of all, change the feat itself, lowering the penalty to attack rolls. Or build a chain- create an "Improved Monkey Grip" feat that eliminates the penalty completely. I think the feat could also be modified to include allowing a character to wield a two-handed weapon of their size category in their primary hand.

Honestly, I don't think it would be terribly overpowered to build all of that into one feat- maybe add on a couple of requirements, like a minimum strength score. But I'm generally a poor judge of what is and isn't "balanced." Would putting all of that into the same feat be ridiculous, or should there be a chain?

vanyell
2006-11-17, 09:20 AM
look at the 3.0 monkey grip. that's probably what you want...

Pegasos989
2006-11-17, 09:46 AM
Well, the problem with MG is that it is so dependant on weapon. For example, dwarven waraxe turns from 1d10 to 2d8, so from 5.5 to 9 average. 3.5 damage for -2 is actually better for a sword (axe) and board fighter than power attacking. Well, they are also subpar but that is not the issue we are solving here.

So you want the feat to raise weapon category to one bigger for no penalty (it would become actually useful fot THW fighters but not overpowered, as their damage wouldn't raise enough that it would be too good for a feat and it might become harder to find magical weapons, etc) but then again, it boosts damage of sword and board fighters by 3.5 then with the feat, which is a lot better than weapon spec.

Many people would say that weapon spec isn't that awesome feat and that sword and board fighters need a small boost and I won't disagree. Just mentioning.

Ambrogino
2006-11-17, 10:31 AM
Use the NWN2/3.0 Mokey grip rules. -2 penalty to use a 2-handed weapon in one hand, nothing to do with different size catagories. You want huge weapons, play BESM.

Serakus_DeSardis
2006-11-17, 10:33 AM
I have a guilty pleasure. I love portraying characters carrying around weapons that are unreasonably large, and the Monkey Grip feat complements this perfectly.

Anime fanboy?

Were-Sandwich
2006-11-17, 10:39 AM
The problem with changing Monkey Grip, is that taking away the main problem with it (The attack penalty) makes it too good. It would be standard issue for every low-level fighter.

Callos_DeTerran
2006-11-17, 10:56 AM
Anime fanboy?

I wish people would stop saying anyone who uses Monkey Grip is an anime fanboy/girl. I've seen plenty of people who have picked Monkey Grip solely because they want to do something like the picture for it. People who don't even know what anime is.



On topic though a chain of feats for Monkey Grip, stuff that throws in extra abilities for using oversized weapons (Read: WORTHWHILE abilities), seems like the best way to mitgate the penalty and make it...well better. Perhaps an Improved Monkey Grip that removes the penalty entirely (Or even gives a + to hit. Combing Weapon Focus and MG). That would probaly be a mid-range feat though. Maybe requiring a BAB of +9-10, Monkey Grip, and maybe another MG related feat.

Darrin
2006-11-17, 11:05 AM
I have a guilty pleasure. I love portraying characters carrying around weapons that are unreasonably large, and the Monkey Grip feat complements this perfectly. The problem is that it sucks. I mean, it sucks (oh, I said it again). So the way I see it, we just need to make it less sucky so people will stop yelling at me for using it.


It sucks. Reading the horribly confusing wording on the 3.5 version causes my brain to shrink 1d4 size categories. Even if you fixed it, it would still stuck.

The best way to get that proper "I have an oversized weapon" strut is to wield an oversize weapon without Monkey Grip. And lo, the powers that be heard the masses, and thus they created "Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade". But alas, this was only 3.0 compatable, erratified, and possibly just illegal to begin with (A medium creature wielding a huge weapon? Can you EWP something that you can't legally wield?).

Which means you're stuck with the Bastard Sword/Dwarven Waraxe and a few uninspiring pokey/smashy-things in Complete Warrior. Although, if you want to go TWF+Oversize TWF, dishing out two-fisted 1d10 whoopass isn't a bad way to go.

Complete Warrior gives you the Maul (cheaper but heavier version of the Dwarven Waraxe), the Warmace (one-handed version of a Great Axe for -1 AC), a Greatspear (basically a Greatsword + reach that you can... uh... throw?), and a Heavy Poleaxe (heavier version of the Greatspear that... uh... can't be thrown?).

A Ftr6 with Two Warmaces + TWF + Oversize TWF + ITWF + TWD + ITWD could be interesting. Revenge of the "cry yourself to sleep" die indeed.

Slightly easier way to get Monkey Grip without any penalty (well, ok, with a +1 LA): Play a Half-Ogre or Golaith with the racial ability "Powerful Build".

Fax Celestis
2006-11-17, 11:18 AM
Yeah, NWN2's Monkey Grip is actually, you know, useful. Using their Monkey Grip + TWF + Oversize TWF lets you wield two greatswords at once, which is certainly intimidating.

Magnus_Samma
2006-11-17, 12:36 PM
Anime fanboy?

Beowulf fanboy, thanks very much.

the_tick_rules
2006-11-17, 12:45 PM
there's also an epic feat with monkey grip as a pre req in complete warrior (or adventurer, as previously stated i always mix up those two) that let you use weapons as if you were one category bigger than you actually are.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2006-11-17, 12:54 PM
there's also an epic feat with monkey grip as a pre req in complete warrior (or adventurer, as previously stated i always mix up those two) that let you use weapons as if you were one category bigger than you actually are.

It is called Wield Oversized Weapon and can be found on page 153 of Complete Warrior. :smallsmile:

Person_Man
2006-11-17, 01:54 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with Monkey Grip with no To-Hit penalties.

But I would require that it be for a specific weapon, and I would require Greater Weapon Specialization as a pre-req. That way, anyone willing to go up to Fighter 12 and invest 4 feats in one weapon would get to wield an insanely powerful version of that weapon. And at level 12, Wizards are throwing around Empowered area of effect spells that cause 18d6 damage, Disintigrate, Dominate Person, etc. So giving the Fighter 12 an extra 3.5 points of damage on each attack is fine with me.

Fax Celestis
2006-11-17, 02:01 PM
Why GWS? Why not GWF and WS? Beyond that, I think it makes sense.

Matthew
2006-11-17, 03:37 PM
Beowulf fanboy? What has Beowulf got to do with oversized weapons?

Fax Celestis
2006-11-17, 03:52 PM
...Beowulf uses exotic weaponry? Damfino.

MrNexx
2006-11-17, 04:20 PM
Beowulf, in fighting Grendel's mother, uses a sword of the ettins, who are often translated as giants.

Matthew
2006-11-17, 04:31 PM
I thought that might be what this was about! No textual evidence for giant swords there, I'm afraid...

Kraitos
2006-11-17, 06:16 PM
A Ftr6 with Two Warmaces + TWF + Oversize TWF + ITWF + TWD + ITWD could be interesting. Revenge of the "cry yourself to sleep" die indeed.

Sorry, I read that and could just hear a DM friend of mine:
DM: "You need how many d12s?"


:smallbiggrin:

Pegasos989
2006-11-17, 06:43 PM
A Ftr6 with Two Warmaces + TWF + Oversize TWF + ITWF + TWD + ITWD could be interesting. Revenge of the "cry yourself to sleep" die indeed.

Yeah, I tried to play that once, but gave up after it being too crippled. I think the quote from my DM was something like
"So, you took all the TWF penalties, spent two feats just to get your offhand damage up by 3 points and mainhand 1 point, paid 2 points of armorclass for the fun and it actually took you a better part of three levels before giving up."

Needing to have profiency and oversized TWF in addition to normal TWF and improved TWF... And to negate the damn penalties to AC you actually need 2 more feats. It means you just spent 6 feats to get d12s instead of 2 feats and d6s (so 3 points of diffrence in average damage of each attack for 4 feats. That is like weapon specialization divided by three.)...

cupkeyk
2006-11-17, 07:08 PM
The key to making a character that wields an unnecessarily large weapon is taking the Master of The Unseen Hand prestige class.

Magnus_Samma
2006-11-17, 07:12 PM
I thought that might be what this was about! No textual evidence for giant swords there, I'm afraid...

No textual evidence against it, though, and logically a sword forged by a giant would be larger than a human-made one. Beyond that, Beowulf often recounts characters performing superhuman feats of strength (swimming for three days in iron mail armor, tearing a monster's arm off) and treating these frankly impossible tasks as almost commonplace occurences. That's the flavor in the story that I love that fits so well with D&D: The idea that great warriors can simply DO stuff that defies the laws of physics, because they're just that good. And carting around weapons as big as you are just seems like a natural extention of that to me.

Turcano
2006-11-17, 07:25 PM
I wish people would stop saying anyone who uses Monkey Grip is an anime fanboy/girl. I've seen plenty of people who have picked Monkey Grip solely because they want to do something like the picture for it. People who don't even know what anime is.

We can still accuse them of overcompensation, right? :smalltongue:


Beowulf fanboy, thanks very much.

I think that Beowulf just sucked it up and went with the -4 penalty; he would have been pretty high level, anyway.

The only real way to make Monkey Grip worthwhile is to either reduce the penalty to -1 or eliminate it entirely. An "Improved Monkey Grip" isn't really worth it, since it's a two-feat investment that is still outclassed by Power Attack/Leap Attack.

Fax Celestis
2006-11-17, 07:28 PM
The only real way to make Monkey Grip worthwhile is to either reduce the penalty to -1 or eliminate it entirely. An "Improved Monkey Grip" isn't really worth it, since it's a two-feat investment that is still outclassed by Power Attack/Leap Attack.

There's no reason you can't use both at the same time, you know.

Turcano
2006-11-17, 07:34 PM
Yeah, but that's also true about Monkey Grip as it stands now.

MrNexx
2006-11-17, 07:43 PM
No textual evidence against it, though, and logically a sword forged by a giant would be larger than a human-made one. Beyond that, Beowulf often recounts characters performing superhuman feats of strength (swimming for three days in iron mail armor, tearing a monster's arm off) and treating these frankly impossible tasks as almost commonplace occurences. That's the flavor in the story that I love that fits so well with D&D: The idea that great warriors can simply DO stuff that defies the laws of physics, because they're just that good. And carting around weapons as big as you are just seems like a natural extention of that to me.

Actually, when I took Old English a few years ago, it was pointed out that the word used for "swam" was the same as a word for "rowed"; I'd have to find it in my facing translation to give you the word, and those might be packed, to show the the arguments they used (though that class was weird; I was the only undergrad, the only non-English major, and the only person with a working knowledge of grammar... and that came from taking Latin and German concurrently with that course).

However, ad res, there's a few possibilities. First of all, one could assume that his ettin-blade was actually a ettin-sized short sword, and thus more appropriately sized for him. Since it was so long ago, he was OBVIOUSLY under the 1st edition rules covering such things, and so wouldn't have any penalty to use it, since an ettin short sword would be the right size. :smallamused:

Magnus_Samma
2006-11-17, 08:37 PM
... okay, yeah, just forget I said anything.

Foeofthelance
2006-11-17, 08:50 PM
Personally, leave the -2 penalty, just allow it to work with all the other feats, especially two weapon fighting. Granted, it is a rather focused combat style, and is hard to turn off, but it is rather satisfying to be dealing several hundred damage a turn. Especially when adding in a few spare feats such as improved crit. Throw in a haste ability...

By the time I was level twelve, I had seven attacks, at regular or better attack bonuses, and dealt 2d8+double digit damage on a regular strike. I'll see if I can't find the build and post it.

Callos_DeTerran
2006-11-17, 09:30 PM
We can still accuse them of overcompensation, right? :smalltongue:


Go right ahead.

Draco Ignifer
2006-11-17, 09:49 PM
Personally, I'd just reduce the penalty to -1. Longsword to Greatsword grants +2.5 damage, Greatsword to REALLY Greatsword grants +3.5 damage... close enough to +3 for government work. Since Weapon Specialization is +2, it seems a tad too strong to eliminate the penalty altogether, so just balance it with a -1... makes choosing between the two reasonable.

Ambrogino
2006-11-18, 02:14 AM
However, ad res, there's a few possibilities. First of all, one could assume that his ettin-blade was actually a ettin-sized short sword, and thus more appropriately sized for him. Since it was so long ago, he was OBVIOUSLY under the 1st edition rules covering such things, and so wouldn't have any penalty to use it, since an ettin short sword would be the right size. :smallamused:

I'll shamefully admit to having never read Beowulf (though I'm about to watch the Neil Gaiman scripted movie version, which is a start I guess) but where does he get the sword from? Is there any chance Ettin sword means sword Made by Ettins, for Beowulf or another human, the way Mjolnir was made by Dwarves, but for Thor? If so it could as well be normal sized, and just using mystical craftsmanship or the like.

Turcano
2006-11-18, 02:34 AM
If I remember correctly, Grendel and his mother have a stash of weapons in their lair, which were presumably collected from less fortunate heroes. The particular weapon he uses was made for a Jotun and required someone of Beowulf's strength to wield it, so it was presumably fairly big. Furthermore, it was destroyed by Grendel's mother's acidic blood (I suppose the failure of his normal sword to do any damage was a blessing in disguise).

Pagz
2006-11-18, 05:30 AM
*confusion* Ive never heard of Beowulf, I feel out of it

But yer monkey grip... just soo feat extencive, although the thought of this guy welding two huge bastard swords appeals to me as well :smallbiggrin:

You can just imagine your char walking up to someone and them going "uhh... oh dear"

Matthew
2006-11-18, 12:32 PM
Beowulf is an Old English Epic. Just do an internet search and you'll find plenty of references to it (and probably the text itself).

As for Beowulf and Monkey Grip, well I would have to say that if I was inclined to stat him out he wouldn't have the Feat and if another Character did it wouldn't help. His ability to use the 'Ettin Blade' is directly related to his God given Strength, much like Odysseus' Bow can only be strung by Odysseus...

AtomicKitKat
2006-11-20, 02:15 AM
Maybe make the Strength/BAB requirement fairly high? Something like BAB+6, Str 15, and removing the provisio that you cannot wield them in the off-hand.

Oversized Critical
Pre-req: Str 19, BAB 12, Monkey Grip(with the revisions I listed above)
Benefit: When wielding a weapon sized for a creature larger than yourself,
the critical multiplier is increased by 1(*2 becomes *3, *3 becomes *4, *4 becomes *5)

SDF
2006-11-20, 06:54 AM
A race with powerful build can help with this. The Goliath and Half-Giant both have it and are LA +1. Add monkey grip to that and you have a rediculous looking combatant on your hands. Just make a Half-Giant that looks like Fabio and you have an ideal Beowulf!

Matthew
2006-11-20, 11:05 AM
You know, I was reading a translation of Beowulf again the other day and I noticed that Wiglaf's sword was described as a 'relic of the Giants'...

Turcano
2006-11-20, 01:18 PM
A race with powerful build can help with this. The Goliath and Half-Giant both have it and are LA +1. Add monkey grip to that and you have a rediculous looking combatant on your hands. Just make a Half-Giant that looks like Fabio and you have an ideal Beowulf!

Monkey Grip doesn't stack with Powerful Build.

SDF
2006-11-21, 02:56 AM
Monkey Grip doesn't stack with Powerful Build.


And why wouldn't it? The powerful build description mentions that it stacks with anything that changes your size category, but neither the feat nor the powerful build say that one can't be used with the other.

Turcano
2006-11-21, 03:33 AM
They don't stack because Powerful Build does not actually change the character's effective size regarding weapons; it just allows the character to use weapons one size category larger than himself without penalty. Monkey Grip does the same thing, but at a -2 penalty.

SDF
2006-11-21, 03:44 AM
It may not make realistic sense, but by RAW it still works specifically because they are NOT the same thing. Powerful build gives you a variety of different advantages that treat you as if you were bigger. Monkey Grip doesn't treat you as if you were bigger, it just lets you use a bigger weapon with a penalty.

Zincorium
2006-11-21, 04:15 AM
It may not make realistic sense, but by RAW it still works specifically because they are NOT the same thing. Powerful build gives you a variety of different advantages that treat you as if you were bigger. Monkey Grip doesn't treat you as if you were bigger, it just lets you use a bigger weapon with a penalty.

No. It does not work by RAW.

A half giant (or goliath) is still a medium creature. Powerful build lets you use weapons that are one size category larger than you are, but you aren't large. That means you can use large weapons. Monkey grip lets you use weapons that are one size larger than you are. This is still large.

It's not that they don't stack, it's that they do the same thing, and monkey grip doesn't do it as well.

Edit: SRD entry.


Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#sizeModifier) or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grappleChecks), bull rush (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush) attempts, and trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) or swallow whole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#swallowWhole)) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Emphasis mine

SDF
2006-11-21, 04:34 AM
Okay, I was reading it as being treated as being larger, not able to use a weapon for larger size as they are for most of their other powerful build traits. You are right, they wouldn't stack. Reading over it again I find the wording ambiguous at best.

Thomas
2006-11-21, 05:49 AM
Isn't that thing FAQ'd, anyway?

Pegasos989
2006-11-21, 10:02 AM
Don't think so. I searched FAQ for it once and atleast didn't find it.

Would you think it is too powerful to stack? The worst case scenario I can think of would be half-giant psywar with the expansion power.
Originally TWFing huge shortsword in one hand (large+monkey grip) and large in other one, then expanding to gargantuan and huge shortswords, so 3d6 weapon in one hand, 2d6 in other, by using psionic power, LA race and a feat...

sleepy
2006-11-21, 04:11 PM
Doesn't a nonpsionic thrikreen with greater multiweapon fighting and 4 short swords of speed already do something similar with the same LA, and also (probably) gets the 11 BAB required for the greater TWF/MWF earlier than the 3/4 psychic warrior? He also adds 1/2 his str mod 8 more times.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-11-21, 05:25 PM
Regarding Powerful Build, there's this: http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=992&p_created=1143662563&p_sid=kQEn-eni&p_accessibility=0&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MSZwX3Byb2RzPTY4LDc5LDE3MyZwX2NhdHM9JnB fcHY9My4xNzMmcF9jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzL nNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PU1vbmt leSBHcmlw&p_li=&p_topview=1

Of course, it refers to the FAQ, but, as Pegasos989 pointed out, there appears to be no mention of this issue in there.

cupkeyk
2006-11-22, 04:10 PM
Uhh... half-giants have the human subtype right, if one follows the rules in races of destiny for half breeds? So A half Giant with the JotunBrud feat from Player's Guide to Faerun or Races of Faerun or whatever is considered Huge whenever beneficial?

pevinsghost
2007-11-16, 02:55 PM
Uhh... half-giants have the human subtype right, if one follows the rules in races of destiny for half breeds? So A half Giant with the JotunBrud feat from Player's Guide to Faerun or Races of Faerun or whatever is considered Huge whenever beneficial?

The way I read it, only for grapple and other oppsed checks that have size modifiers.

Since we're on the topic of gigantic weapons here, does anyone know what the damage on a greatsword or greataxe sized for a H, G, or C sized creature would be?

Karsh
2007-11-16, 03:30 PM
Seems to me like the best thing to do would be to grant a character Monkey Gripping a Large reach weapon to gain the benefit of its reach as if they were Large with 5 foot reach (I.E. a Large Glaive in the hands of a Medium creature would grant 15 ft. of reach, no threatening squares within 5 feet). Sure, this makes trip monster builds even stronger, but I would definitely take this feat as a Spiked Chain tripper for an extra 5 feet of reach.

Thinker
2007-11-16, 03:41 PM
Holy Thread Ressurection, Batman! This is a year old.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-16, 03:46 PM
This is so big it qualifies as necrophilia. This one's going for BoVD version 4th ed!

Roland St. Jude
2007-11-16, 03:50 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: What happens over six weeks and three-pages ago, stays...hrm, that doesn't quite work. Um, please don't resurrect old threads. Please do see the rules on thread necromancy. Thank you.

Indon
2007-11-16, 03:59 PM
Monkey grip rewrite!

Monkey Grip
Reqs: 17 Strength, +3 BAB
Effect: Allows you to wield a weapon one size category larger than you normally would, at its' proper level of use (light weapons may be wielded as light weapons, rather than one-handed, etc), at half the normal penalty.
Additionally, for every 4 points of strength and 3 Base Attack Bonus by which you exceed the requirements for this feat, you may wield a weapon one additional size category larger, to a maximum of 3 size categories (at 25 strength and +9 BAB).
Normal: Attempting to wield a weapon of a larger size imposes a penalty of -2 per size category, and must be wielded at one step greater difficulty per size increase (so a large 1-handed weapon must be wielded with two hands).

That's my attempt.

Edit: Oh, wow, that's what I get for keeping the reply window open for so long.