So my player wants a Dinosaur.

[Hazzardevil]

I will be running an Eberron game soon and one of the players will be playing a Halfling Rogue, he wants a dinosaur.
Now it doesn't give costs in the Eberron Campaign Setting for buying a dinosaur and I don't want to shut this down entirely and rather hesitant to give him wild cohort.
Thoughts?

[hamishspence]

Arms & Equipment Guide gives 10,000 gp as the price for a Deinonychus egg, and 1500 gp as the cost to train it.

However, Page 121 of Eberron Campaign Setting lists the costs for various mounts- and those are much lower.

The Carver (Deinonychus) is 400 gp.
The Clawfoot (Velociraptor) is 150 gp

The Fastieth (Medium herbivore) is 50 gp.
The Glidewing (Large Pteranodon) is 800 gp.

Note that much later errata downsizes Deinonychus to Medium- same size as the Clawfoot.

[Ashtagon]

Wild Cohort was pretty much written with this character concept in mind. Why are you against the feat?

[Hazzardevil]

I'm not keen on it because he's in the party with a paladin and I don't want to have one overshadow the other.

[Greenish]

I'm not keen on it because he's in the party with a paladin and I don't want to have one overshadow the other.Actually, let me make the tables for you.

{TABLE]Paladin level|+HD|+NA|+Stat|Special
8-10|4|+6|2|Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws, Improved speed
11-14|6|+8|3|Command creatures of its kind
15-20|8|+10|4|Spell resistance
[/TABLE]

{TABLE]Rogue level|+HD|+NA|+Stat|Special
9-11|1|+1|0|Evasion
12-14|3|+3|1|
15-17|5|+5|2|
17-20|7|+7|3|Devotion
[/TABLE]


So, rogue invest less, and gets less in return (remember that the paladin's mount is also smart), but doesn't fall into uselessness. Looks pretty okay to me.

[Edit]: That's with both the paladin and rogue going for clawfoots.

[Alleran]

I'm not keen on it because he's in the party with a paladin and I don't want to have one overshadow the other.
I'm not seeing the problem here.

[Hyde]

Is the paladin's special mount a dinosaur also? The rogues dinosaur could be the paladin's dinosaur's brother (sister) following its sibling out of concern. When it finally finds the party, its brother (sister) is all "man, I got a quest now and ****. You should go home." And then the sibling dinosaur can befriend the rogue, as mutual outcast-y types.

I like the subplot, but frankly, I think this is a pretty bad idea.

[Jack Zander]

I'm not keen on it because he's in the party with a paladin and I don't want to have one overshadow the other.

Might as well ban all tier 3, 2, and 1 classes while you're at it then.

If the paladin wants to contribute in a meaningful way, he will find his niche. Mounted paladins were never very impressive to begin with. Most paladin builds focus more on foot combat, and if he does focus on his mount, it'll probably be better than the rogue's mounted tactics anyway.

[Hazzardevil]

Might as well ban all tier 3, 2, and 1 classes while you're at it then.

If the paladin wants to contribute in a meaningful way, he will find his niche. Mounted paladins were never very impressive to begin with. Most paladin builds focus more on foot combat, and if he does focus on his mount, it'll probably be better than the rogue's mounted tactics anyway.

I've told him he can use wild cohort, and honestly there isn't a huge difference in power between pure rogues and pure paladins, which to me means wild cohort could make a huge difference.

[Jack Zander]

Wild cohort is a feat. You shouldn't be comparing a feat to a class. Yeah, it's pretty powerful if the paladin spends his feats on things like toughness and weapon focus. But you should expect the paladin to also choose feats of comparable power.

[Ashtagon]

I've told him he can use wild cohort, and honestly there isn't a huge difference in power between pure rogues and pure paladins, which to me means wild cohort could make a huge difference.

The key point to me is that dinosaurs are BIG. Most places outside halfling communities simply won't have stabling facilities for what, to them, is a monster to be hunted slain and kept away from civilised folk. That's a logistics issue for the player to worry about.

Their size also means they can't help in dungeon or urban adventures, and their stabling needs will make them a liability in such adventures. Remember, it's an intelligent as a regular member of its species (ie not very). It may decide to go chasing after something that caught its eye, or running from something that scared it, while the party is off having an adventure. And good luck finding a rope strong enough to restrain him when that happens (imagine a 30-foot tall, overly affectionate puppy).

And in wilderness adventures, where it can actually help, remember that the paladin still has his mount. Which is intelligent (or a pokemon in 3.5e raw), so not a liability when the party is in a dungeon or city.

Did the player say what kind of dinosaur he wants? There's a world of difference between T. rex and Coelophysis.

[Greenish]

The key point to me is that dinosaurs are BIG.That's not true of either D&D (where they vary from Small to Gargantuan, with admittedly a bias towards Medium or larger) or the real world.

Also, this is Eberron we're talking about.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sharn_gallery/84563.jpg

[Ashtagon]

Okay, so basically, he wants to spend a feat on getting a horse? This is OP how?

[nobodez]

The key point to me is that dinosaurs are BIG. Most places outside halfling communities simply won't have stabling facilities for what, to them, is a monster to be hunted slain and kept away from civilised folk. That's a logistics issue for the player to worry about.

Their size also means they can't help in dungeon or urban adventures, and their stabling needs will make them a liability in such adventures. Remember, it's an intelligent as a regular member of its species (ie not very). It may decide to go chasing after something that caught its eye, or running from something that scared it, while the party is off having an adventure. And good luck finding a rope strong enough to restrain him when that happens (imagine a 30-foot tall, overly affectionate puppy).

And in wilderness adventures, where it can actually help, remember that the paladin still has his mount. Which is intelligent (or a pokemon in 3.5e raw), so not a liability when the party is in a dungeon or city.

Did the player say what kind of dinosaur he wants? There's a world of difference between T. rex and Coelophysis.

Um, the dinosaur the halfling is likely to get (clawfoot or carver) is somewhere between a large dog and a small horse in size, so yeah, not that hard to stable (plus, since in Eberron halflings run the Inns, they'll likely have stables with suitable segregated areas for vegi-saurus and carni-saurus). Also, since it's Eberron, he can get it magebred and it'll be even better trained than a normal mount. Plus, it's not like they can't ride it into a dungeon, look at how well the raptors did in the Jurasic Park movie, they even opened the doors.

(Insert "Clever Girl" meme here)

[Waspinator]

A Clawfoot is CR 2. Might be overpowered to have around initially, but quickly outclassed.

Also yeah, the dinosaurs we're talking about are the size of a horse, max. Probably no storage problem.

So yeah, just let the guy buy a Magebred Clawfoot. It'll basically be a really cool horse and after the first few levels will probably be used mostly for riding and carrying capacity..

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I've told him he can use wild cohort, and honestly there isn't a huge difference in power between pure rogues and pure paladins, which to me means wild cohort could make a huge difference.

Wild cohort is a great feat for doing this sort of thing, just be careful to pick an appropriate base animal (compare the challenge ratings).

In combat he can't actually control it as a player, he has to use actions (as described in the Handle Animal skill) to tell it to do anything. If he has to spend a move or full-round action and make a skill check just to tell his companion to move into flanking position, that will limit his options in combat.

[Waspinator]

Yeah, it's worth remembering that a Wild Cohort is still a dumb animal. You want it to do anything specific, you have to have trained it previously and then use actions to direct it. Paladin mounts are a little more independent.

[Urpriest]

In combat he can't actually control it as a player, he has to use actions (as described in the Handle Animal skill) to tell it to do anything. If he has to spend a move or full-round action and make a skill check just to tell his companion to move into flanking position, that will limit his options in combat.

Ride can usually take care of that sort of thing. It should be a combat-trained mount, after all.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Aside from everything else that's been said, every time someone denies a player a dinosaur buddy, one more piece of the childlike glee that holds this world together through its darkest hours is snuffed out.

This isn't like physics and catgirls. This is serious.

Really, though, I'm pretty bummed at the fact that I've never gotten to have a dinobuddy, no-matter how hard I try.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Ride can usually take care of that sort of thing. It should be a combat-trained mount, after all.

He's a rogue, I doubt he'll be riding it into combat.

[Arbane]

That's a carnivore, right?
Keeping it fed might be a problem, unless it eats what the party kills. Trail rations probably aren't any good for animals...

[Waspinator]

Yeah, a Clawfoot is a human-sized carnivorous raptor. Not sure if the rules cover what it eats too in too much detail, but you can probably just assume a bunch of beef jerky would work as field rations. You could probably have it carry it in packs. And of course if you kill something that's safe for it to eat, you've got a meal for it right there.

Of course, the kind of dark side of this would be to use the thing to help dispose of bodies....

[Juntao112]

That's a carnivore, right?
Keeping it fed might be a problem, unless it eats what the party kills. Trail rations probably aren't any good for animals...

Or adventurers.

[Greenish]

He's a rogue, I doubt he'll be riding it into combat.It gets extra HD, which grant feats. Martial Study -> Martial Stance: Island of Blades.

Now your mount also flanks for you.

That's a carnivore, right?
Keeping it fed might be a problem, unless it eats what the party kills. Trail rations probably aren't any good for animals...A Ring of Sustenance is relatively cheap.

[Waspinator]

Huh. Martial Study is technically legal for animals, you're right. Which is odd, since it's supposed to be a trained martial art. Is there some kind of dojo out there teaching kung-fu to dinosaurs?

[Greenish]

Huh. Martial Study is technically legal for animals, you're right. Which is odd, since it's supposed to be a trained martial art. Is there some kind of dojo out there teaching kung-fu to dinosaurs?How could there not be a dojo teaching kung-fu to dinosaurs? Think about it.

[magwaaf]

page 82 of arms and equip has megaraptor

egg is 13k, cost to train is 2k. so a full grown one is less than 13k depending on how long its been since hatched.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

How could there not be a dojo teaching kung-fu to dinosaurs? Think about it.

http://tbivision.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/dinoposse-460x503.jpg

I believe we rest our case.

[Eslin]

Huh. Martial Study is technically legal for animals, you're right. Which is odd, since it's supposed to be a trained martial art. Is there some kind of dojo out there teaching kung-fu to dinosaurs?

I really, really hope so.

[Waspinator]

Oh wow, it's a real show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_Dino_Posse

And if we want to count martial artists who use dinosaurs....

http://i.imgur.com/CwY90oSl.jpg

[Slipperychicken]

Huh. Martial Study is technically legal for animals, you're right. Which is odd, since it's supposed to be a trained martial art. Is there some kind of dojo out there teaching kung-fu to dinosaurs?


dojo out there teaching kung-fu to dinosaurs?


kung-fu dinosaurs?

*DING* *DING!*
Waspinator has won the thread!



I want to play as a Kung-Fu Dinosaur now. Maybe something in Savage Species...

But seriously, since dinosaurs are an actual mount in the setting, people would have appropriate stabling facilities built, and would sell rations with carnivorous dinosaur mounts in mind. It's simple market forces: if there's demand for dino-stables (Practically the entire Halfling race rides them in Eberron. Not to mention they're completely goddamn awesome, and would surely inspire dino-riding biker gangs), there's going to be supply.

[dwlc2000]

Dinosaurs are completely unrealistic for the time period and shouldnt exist. Then again it is eberron.

[Waspinator]

Want to know what's also unrealistic? Magic.

[Rubik]

Oh wow, it's a real show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_Dino_Posse

And if we want to count martial artists who use dinosaurs....

http://i.imgur.com/CwY90oSl.jpgCould you put that image in spoiler tags please?

[Phelix-Mu]

Huh. Martial Study is technically legal for animals, you're right. Which is odd, since it's supposed to be a trained martial art. Is there some kind of dojo out there teaching kung-fu to dinosaurs?

This is kind of a bandwagon at this point, but damn, it's the coolest bandwagon that I've ever had the chance to jump on.

My mind immediately summoned up some strange, hash-induced blend of Kung-Fu: The Legend Continues and the muppet-based "Dinosaurs" sitcom.

But, honestly, the stuff that animals can learn to do is awesomely very cool. Extremely non-reality based, but I think that's the fun of the game. It's a little sad that most of the best op is available mainly to druids (of course! druids! give them a martial adept! awesome!).

Let the rogue take Wild Cohort. Stuff like this that isn't out-of-the-box rogue op, but still a strong choice, is good. Makes the character both effective and moderately different from the legions of other halfling rogues out there.

Also, I would add that a well-played unusual animal companion or familiar can be a positive boon to the role playing atmosphere.

[Waspinator]

"The Noble Wild" has rules for a crocodile PC, but sadly not dinosaurs.

[Phelix-Mu]

"The Noble Wild" has rules for a crocodile PC, but sadly not dinosaurs.

Weren't saurials updated for 3e? They are pretty much bipedal dinosaurs. If sure a sensible DM would let you revamp the fluff if you found it onerous; they had some very distinct flavor back in 2e FR.

[Greenish]

Dinosaurs are completely unrealistic for the time period and shouldnt exist. Then again it is eberron.Why are dinosaurs unrealistic for 998 YK?

[Slipperychicken]

Dinosaurs are completely unrealistic for the time period and shouldnt exist. Then again it is eberron.

So, let me get this straight:

You're playing a game where normal play involves a kung-fu Buddhist-ripoff monk with magic hands teaming up with a bearded midget dork who can rewrite the laws of physics by shouting nonsense-words and waving his hands around, so they can go run into monster-infested caves and beat up evil lizard-people and 1,000 year old 64ft tall magic flying Dragons who sleep on mountains of gold coins...

...and you're complaining that the presence of dinosaurs is unrealistic?

[TuggyNE]

So, let me get this straight:

You're playing a game where normal play involves a kung-fu Buddhist-ripoff monk with magic hands teaming up with a bearded midget dork who can rewrite the laws of physics by shouting nonsense-words and waving his hands around, so they can to run into monster-infested caves and beat up evil lizard-people and 1,000 year old 64ft tall magic flying Dragons who sleep on mountains of gold coins...

...and you're complaining that the presence of dinosaurs is unrealistic?

Yes. It's a fairly common attitude, for what it's worth. I think it's basically the "They can't make up the rules for X because I already know those rules!" (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2012-04-01) problem.

[Ashtagon]

It gets extra HD, which grant feats. Martial Study -> Martial Stance: Island of Blades.

Now your mount also flanks for you.
A Ring of Sustenance is relatively cheap.

He'd need to be at least 9th level before gaining enough bonus HD to grant the extra feats required. I'm okay with that.

Of course, that means you're putting a ~7 HD animal in a fight a few CRs above it. Given it's a clear threat in the fight with that stance, enemies will probably being targeting it. Sounds like a glass cannon tactic.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Dinosaurs are completely unrealistic for the time period and shouldnt exist. Then again it is eberron.

The period being what? I was an English major, but I took my share of history classes and I don't remember learning about the era where the Lich King Khazzas turned Europe into an icy Hell governed by his undead minions. I mean, maybe I missed something, though.

[Hazzardevil]

Okay, so basically, he wants to spend a feat on getting a horse? This is OP how?

A horse that was basically a slightly weaker animal companion and people often say that the Druid gets a fighter as a class feature.
Then people reminded me of the Paladins mount, never mind, he can use wild cohort.

[Waspinator]

I realized something worth pointing out on this subject: the level various dinosaurs qualify as animal companions and wild cohorts. In the Eberron Campaign Setting, it lists various animal companions on page 37. A fastieth is a level 1 companion and a clawfoot is level 4. If you look at fastieths, they have a -2 bite attack that does 1d3+1. Not really impressive even at level 1. Clawfoots are a bite more dangerous since have more and better natural attacks, but by level 4 they're not very impressive either.