Flying Race?

[Hadesman]

So I need help making a race that can fly. It needs to be physically possible such as wing span, hollow bones, muscle mass stuff like that. Need help with penalties, how flying works, bonuses... Stuff like that. So far I got:

-2 Constitution--Their hollow bones make them more fragile
1/4 Carrying capacity (Air)-- They can't have too much stuff on them when they fly.
3/4 Carrying Capacity (Land)-- Still can't hold on to much stuff as they really can't be that muscular (Strain on hollow bones).
Natural Weapon: Claws (Retractable)-- 1D4
+2 Dexterity-- Naturally agile, and have quick reflexes.
Possibly a +2 to spot/listen?

More suggestions would be fantastic. Changes would definitely be welcomed.

[questionmark693]

Check out the Raptoran race...either races of the wild or savage species as I recall.

EDIT: otherwise, you'll probably get more help in the home brew section.

[Ravenica]

Pathfinder has the Strix as a flying playable race

[Daftendirekt]

So I need help... how flying works

DMG, page 20 has a chart showing how flight works.

[KillianHawkeye]

Check out the Raptoran race...either races of the wild or savage species as I recall.

Raptorans are from Races of the Wild.

Also see Avariel (the winged elves) from one of the Forgotten Realms books. They have the whole hollow bones thing already going for them, and something like a 12 foot wingspan.

[Jeff the Green]

-2 Constitution--Their hollow bones make them more fragile

Actually, that's not true. Hollow bones are stronger than solid ones. They're a lot more mineralized and the struts in the hollow spaces work like arches and triangular supports on bridges. A number of large non-flying dinosaurs also had hollow bones, actually.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Actually, that's not true. Hollow bones are stronger than solid ones. They're a lot more mineralized and the struts in the hollow spaces work like arches and triangular supports on bridges. A number of large non-flying dinosaurs also had hollow bones, actually.
In addition, birds have really efficient hearts and respiratory systems, given how much energy flying takes.

Bird muscles have to be strong enough to, you know, fly, so I don't know about dropping carrying capacity so much. Maybe limit them to only flying with light loads.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

So I need help making a race that can fly. It needs to be physically possible such as wing span, hollow bones, muscle mass stuff like that. Need help with penalties, how flying works, bonuses... Stuff like that. So far I got:

If you're going for some realism, make sure you've read this first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight

Are you going for a race that is nimble like a swallow or hummingbird, or a race that has a lot of endurance like a seagull or albatross? Agile birds have each wing about as long as their body, while larger birds have each wing about twice as long as their body. That means a Small-sized three-foot race would have a wingspan of at least six feet, and a Medium-sized race would have a wingspan of at least ten feet. They'd probably weigh 50% to 75% as much as races of similar size. No need to put these things in the stats, of course, but they're nice fluff.


-2 Constitution--Their hollow bones make them more fragile
1/4 Carrying capacity (Air)-- They can't have too much stuff on them when they fly.
3/4 Carrying Capacity (Land)-- Still can't hold on to much stuff as they really can't be that muscular (Strain on hollow bones).
Natural Weapon: Claws (Retractable)-- 1D4
+2 Dexterity-- Naturally agile, and have quick reflexes.
Possibly a +2 to spot/listen?

More suggestions would be fantastic. Changes would definitely be welcomed.

Having their claws on their feet and only letting them use the natural attack while flying makes more sense than "retractable" claws. However, according to the flight rules anything under Good maneuverability has to keep moving every round of combat, so that needs to be considered too. If you don't give them the needed maneuverability, you could give them Fly-By Attack as a bonus feat, or make the natural attack simply be a special attack that can be used as part of movement while flying (with the intent that they would normally charge and then drop to the ground afterwards unless they do something to hover or strafe the target with the appropriate feats). It's also important to consider that some birds are quite dexterous with their talons, you might want to consider a racial feat that allows the race to use certain types of weapons while flying (things with big handles like polearms).

The maneuverability class and speed of their flight is extremely important. At low levels any kind of flight is really really helpful as a utility ability. Starting at 5th level wizards can let people fly at 60' (good). It may be a good idea to let their flight scale with level or with racial feats. Read this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions

Raptorans may be a good base for this. (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1)

Reducing carrying capacity is an unwiedly penalty. It may be better to say, "they cannot fly with more than a light load" and that should cover up most abuses related to carrying party members. An explicit note on how medium and heavy armor slows them couldn't hurt. However, I recommend you do more elegant things to balance them. Not being able to use your arms while flying is probably enough of a penalty already anyways.

I highly recommend you give them the ability to glide and have it upgrade to true flight at 5th level (the same level that wizards get the spell). This saves GMs a lot of headaches with regards to encounters and pre-made adventures that don't account for characters from 1st to 4th level having flight ability. Gliding is simple, just say they have such and such a flight speed, but that until 5th level they must fall one foot for every five feet traveled and cannot normally gain altitude.

[Hadesman]

You guys are probably the most amazing people ever. I'm going for more of a endurance thing..

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

You guys are probably the most amazing people ever. I'm going for more of a endurance thing..

Okay, in that case you should definitely give them a gliding ability at low levels. When they hit 5th level keep it at 40' movement (but it's okay to increase their flight speed at higher levels) and make it so that an hour of flying counts as a forced march.

[Jeff the Green]

Take a look at Raptoran in Races of the Wild. Take their glide and flight abilities and steal them whole-cloth, with a couple exceptions:

Give them Poor maneuverability (have you ever seen an albatross try to maneuver?)
Give them the ability to glide without descending at 3rd level (soaring birds can glide spending minimal energy).
Bump their true flight up to 6th level.
Double the amount of time they can spend in the air once they get flight.


I'd also give them +2 Con, -2 Dex. Maybe homebrew a feat allowing them to sleep while aloft, gliding in a circle.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Take a look at Raptoran in Races of the Wild. Take their glide and flight abilities and steal them whole-cloth, with a couple exceptions:

Give them Poor maneuverability (have you ever seen an albatross try to maneuver?)
Give them the ability to glide without descending at 3rd level (soaring birds can glide spending minimal energy).
Bump their true flight up to 6th level.
Double the amount of time they can spend in the air once they get flight.


I'd also give them +2 Con, -2 Dex. Maybe homebrew a feat allowing them to sleep while aloft, gliding in a circle.

By the way... how do people feel about Raptorans as far as balance goes?

[Selein]

Aarakocra (Arakkoa) Pg. 130 Races of Faerûn

[Jeff the Green]

By the way... how do people feel about Raptorans as far as balance goes?

Well, as you can probably tell from my "rip off the raptoran" statement, I think they're pretty good. Granted, I generally compare non-core races to things like fire elves, dwarves, humans, and halflings and not half-orcs or garden-variety elves, but I'd say free flight, which is limited until the levels where you could get it anyway, is worth +2 Constitution or a feat.

[Komatik]

Something about that kind of graded flight annoys me a hell of a lot. I guess it's the "Hey look wingsflightcooln... SORRY LOLNOPE you thought we'd let you have this stuff without LA lol you're stupid" thing. Otherwise great, fluff and all.

[Kaeso]

While it's not exactly a "race", having a cleric with animal devotion gives him flight for 2 minutes, with an additional 2 minutes per turn undead usage. I'm sure that could be refluffed into something.

[hamishspence]

One oddity I've noticed with flying creature carrying capacities- many are not reduced, but increased- despite a giant eagle being a biped, it has the carrying capacity of a quadruped.

Giant Eagle: Str 18 Large: 300 lb Light Load

When extrapolated downward, this produces eagles, ravens etc with rather ridiculous Light Load capacities.

Raven: Str 1 Tiny: 2.25 lb Light Load
Owl: Str 4 Tiny: 9.75 lb Light Load
Hawk: Str 6 Tiny: 15 lb Light Load
Eagle: Str 10 Small: 33 lb Light Load

[Soranar]

As far as balance goes, towards raptorans

-basically their only racial feature is flight (and a handful of substitution levels)

-flight is a very common effect that can be reproduced through templates (dragonborn of bahamut for example), magic items (grafts, magic carpet, etc) and spells

Basically, as much as you need flight in any high level build, you also have a LOT of ways to get it so it's not that powerful.

Perfect maneuverability however, is far more valuable. If you're willing to give that it usually requires at least 1 LA

[Xerxus]

Actually, that's not true. Hollow bones are stronger than solid ones. They're a lot more mineralized and the struts in the hollow spaces work like arches and triangular supports on bridges. A number of large non-flying dinosaurs also had hollow bones, actually.

That totally depends on what you mean by stronger, and hollow.

[nobodez]

One oddity I've noticed with flying creature carrying capacities- many are not reduced, but increased- despite a giant eagle being a biped, it has the carrying capacity of a quadruped.

Giant Eagle: Str 18 Large: 300 lb Light Load

When extrapolated downward, this produces eagles, ravens etc with rather ridiculous Light Load capacities.

Raven: Str 1 Tiny: 2.25 lb Light Load
Owl: Str 4 Tiny: 9.75 lb Light Load
Hawk: Str 6 Tiny: 15 lb Light Load
Eagle: Str 10 Small: 33 lb Light Load

Consider that Bald Eagles have been known to attack, kill, nd carry off lambs weighing up to 24 pounds, a 33 pound light load isn't that far off.

[Daftendirekt]

Likewise with hawks (or is it falcons? Nevertheless, the point remains) attacking other birds and carrying them off.

[nobodez]

Likewise with hawks (or is it falcons? Nevertheless, the point remains) attacking other birds and carrying them off.

I was thinking of mentioning the Haasts Eagle and its Moa diet, but they're larger than normal eagles (more like small Rocs).

[Jeff the Green]

Consider that Bald Eagles have been known to attack, kill, nd carry off lambs weighing up to 24 pounds, a 33 pound light load isn't that far off.

I've never been able to find a confirmed source of an eagle carrying something that big. Eyewitnesses, sure, but laypeople are pretty bad at describing wildlife. Do you know of a confirmed one?


I was thinking of mentioning the Haasts Eagle and its Moa diet, but they're larger than normal eagles (more like small Rocs).

Eh, they weren't that big. Their wings were kind of stubby, actually, because they lived in forests, but they were almost half again as heavy as the largest raptors extant. Argentavis, on the other hand, had a wingspan longer than most SUVs.

[GnomeGninjas]

Drop the carrying capacity thing. Creatures can't fly if they have more then a light load, you don't need to add more rules about this.

[Andion Isurand]

and also, the flight speed for birds are often way to slow

http://magerune.blogspot.com/2011/10/hummingbird-airspeed-velocity.html

[hamishspence]

Consider that Bald Eagles have been known to attack, kill, nd carry off lambs weighing up to 24 pounds, a 33 pound light load isn't that far off.

The last time I discussed eagle carrying ability, "eagles can carry four times their own weight" was brought up, I did some looking, and found this:

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=343

It says that while a bald eagle might manage 6-8 lb if it swoops down on the prey at high speed, it probably wouldn't be able to take off with it.