[3.5] Gish Party! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

A_S

2013-03-29, 12:49 PM

As sword-and-sorcery character concepts go, I like gishes. They get the sword and the sorcery in there, I like the "I'm so hardcore I'm good at everything" vibe, and probably most importantly, all my favorite fantasy badasses are gishes. Off the top of my head:

Everybody cool in the Dragaera novels (Morrolan, Vlad, Aliera, Sethra, etc.)
Cimorene and Mendenbar in the Enchanted Forest Chronicles (any of you guys read those as kids?)
Sparhawk (who I thought was cooler before I realized that David Eddings keeps writing the same book over and over)
Corwin (of Amber)
Sabriel and her family
All my characters from the TES games
I'll feel bad about whoever I forgot and left out
Oh, yeah, like Kvothe

So, it should come as no surprise that, since I also like 3.5 character building, I spend a decent chunk of time reading about and fiddling around with gish builds. And don't get me wrong, they're cool (the standard Sorcadin build, especially, tickles me with how elegantly it fits together). But they also very often leave me feeling unsatisfied. Yes, your bog-standard 3.5 gish can both cast powerful spells and swing a sword with the best of them, but when I play a gish in a game, I don't want to be just like every other gish anybody's ever built. I want to be able to weave magic and swordplay together like my favorite fantasy heroes, but also be able to do some other cool stuff that distinguishes me from other gishes.

It's out of this last desire that this project was born: I decided to see, as a geeky time-wasting exercise, whether I could make a four-man D&D 3.5 party that was composed entirely of gishes, but which also hewed to the stereotypical tank/healer/sneak/blaster party composition. I think I succeeded. And, because it feels lame to put this much effort into something and then just sit on it, I've decided to post it here, because...maybe somebody will get a kick out of it? I dunno...

I held myself to various standards when working on these characters. Every party member lives up to exacting standards of gish-dom. Each character:

Relies on attacks with a melee weapon as his or her primary form of damage.
Has 16 or higher BAB.
Casts 9th level arcane spells off the sorc/wiz list.
Has the Arcane Strike feat.
Is designed to play as gishily as possible.

In addition, I used only 1st party published material, tried to avoid cheese, stuck to a 28 point buy, and used the more conservative interpretation in cases of rules ambiguity (e.g., DMG2 Apprentice feats only granting class skills through level 5, ToB classes requiring the first stance to be level 1 regardless of character level). My only major regret in the elegance department is that the party uses material from both Eberron-specific and Faerun-specific sourcebooks. However, none of the material used is setting-specific in its fluff.

So, without further ado, the party:

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The TankA gish designed with defense in mind. The early Duskblade chassis adds durability (compared to a character who starts off with Wizard levels or similar). Access to a bunch of immediate action defensive spells helps out survivability, and eventually, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (you get all seven levels of class features) gives you immediate action "no" buttons that can protect both you and the rest of your party from basically everything.

I envision this character as an urban street kid who got by as a petty carnival magician (thus the Apprentice feat), but had to join the army to get out of a tight spot, and came back badass.

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Race: Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 14 > 19

Level Progression:
1 - Duskblade 1 - Apprentice (Entertainer), Power Attack
2 - Duskblade 2 - Combat Casting (b)
3 - Duskblade 3 - Cleave
4 - Duskblade 4 - Cha 15
5 - Duskblade 5
6 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
7 - Abjurant Champion 2
8 - Abjurant Champion 3 - Cha 16
9 - Warrior Skald 1 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
10 - Abjurant Champion 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Cha 17
13 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
14 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
15 - Legacy Champion 1 - Arcane Strike
16 - Legacy Champion 2 - Cha 18
17 - Legacy Champion 3
18 - Legacy Champion 4 - Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord), Channel Legacy
19 - Legacy Champion 5
20 - Legacy Champion 6 - Cha 19

ACF: Skilled City-Dweller (Ride > Tumble)

Skills:

1 (24) - Knowledge (arcana) 4, Knowledge (history) 4, Knowledge (nature) 4, Perform (poetry) 4, Perform (sing) 4, Spellcraft 4
2 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (history) 5, Listen .5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 5, Perform (sing) 5, Spellcraft 5
3 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 6, Listen 1.5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 6, Perform (sing) 6, Spellcraft 6
4 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 7, Listen 3 (cc), Perform (poetry) 7, Perform (sing) 7
5 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 8, Listen 4 (cc), Perform (poetry) 8, Perform (sing) 8, Profession (astrologer) .5 (cc)
6 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 9, Listen 4.5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 8.5 (cc), Perform (sing) 9 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 1 (cc)
7 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 10, Listen 5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 9 (cc), Perform (sing) 10 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 1.5 (cc)
8 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 11, Profession (astrologer) 4 (cc)
9 (8) - Listen 12, Profession (astrologer) 5
10 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 13, Listen 13 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 6 (cc)
11 (8) - Concentration 8
12 (6) - Spellcraft 12
13 (6) - Concentration 14
14 (6) - Balance 1.5 (cc), Concentration 17
15 (8) - Balance 5 (cc), Concentration 18
16 (8) - Concentration 19, Spellcraft 18, Tumble 1
17 (8) - Concentration 20, Listen 18, Spellcraft 20
18 (8) - Concentration 21, Listen 21, Spellcraft 21, Tumble 4
19 (8) - Concentration 22, Listen 22, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 1, Knowledge (local) 1, Spellcraft 22, Tumble 5, SKILL TRICK: Collector of Stories
20 (8) - Concentration 23, Knowledge (religion) 1, Knowledge (the planes) 1, Listen 23, Spellcraft 23, Use Magic Device 1, SKILL TRICK: Twisted Charge

Balance: 5
Concentration: 23
Knowledge (arcana): 13
Knowledge (dungeoneering): 1
Knowledge (history): 5
Knowledge (local): 1
Knowledge (nature): 4
Knowledge (religion): 1
Knowledge (the planes): 1
Listen: 23
Perform (poetry): 9
Perform (sing): 10
Profession (astrologer): 6
Spellcraft: 23
Tumble: 5
Use Magic Device: 1

Skill Tricks: Collector of Stories, Twisted Charge

Base Saves:
Fort: +9
Ref: +6
Will: +18

Notable Spells:
-Immediate action defensive spells (Deflect, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Greater Mirror Image, etc.)
-Buffs (Bite of the X, Ironguard, Mind Blank, etc.)
-Channelable goodies (Night's Caress for straight damage, Irresistable Dance two spell levels early via the Bard list)

Notable Items:
-A legacy item (Faithful Avenger is probably the best published option, but custom would be preferable)
-Novice Rings of the Diamond Mind to get Mind over Body and Action Before Thought to shore up weaker saves.
-All the standard stuff.

The HealerWell, really the healer/support, since in-combat healing is pretty bad in 3.5. This character gets access to both Bard and Druid healing (though the Druid casting comes late, so might not be worth much), which, along with Healing Hymn and some wands, Healing Belts, etc. should be enough to take care of the party's healing needs. More impressively for a gish, this character also pulls off Inspire Courage (with DFI and Lingering Song to stack both versions) as a level 18 Bard, along with some party-friendly ToB material (esp. White Raven Tactics). Also serves well as the party's face, with maxed Diplomacy, decent Bluff, and access to Glibness.

This character has a lot of "nature" flavor (Savage Bard, Druid), and a lot of "cold" flavor (silver dragon ancestry, Snowflake Wardance). Should work as a northern barbarian mystic type who's come to the big city for some reason and learns more about the higher mysteries of magic as time goes by.

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Race: Silverbrow Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 10
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14 > 15
Cha: 15 > 19

Level Progression:
1 - Bard 1 - Lingering Song, Dragonfire Inspiration
2 - Bard 2
3 - Bard 3 - Snowflake Wardance
4 - Bard 4 - Cha 16
5 - Bard 5
6 - Crusader 1 - Song of the White Raven
7 - Bard 6
8 - Bard 7 - Cha 17
9 - Warblade 1 - Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots)
10 - Druid 1
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Sublime Chord 2 - Open Least Chakra (feet), Cha 18
13 - Fochlucan Lyrist 1
14 - Fochlucan Lyrist 2
15 - Fochlucan Lyrist 3 - Arcane Strike
16 - Fochlucan Lyrist 4 - Cha 19
17 - Fochlucan Lyrist 5
18 - Fochlucan Lyrist 6 - Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord)
19 - Fochlucan Lyrist 7
20 - Fochlucan Lyrist 8 - Wis 15

ACF's: Eberron Bard (Suggestion > Song of the Heart at level 7), Healing Hymn, Savage Bard, Spellbreaker Song

Skills:

1 (32) - Balance 4, Concentration 3, Diplomacy 4, Knowledge (nature) 4, Listen 4, Perform (dance) 4, Perform (stringed instruments) 1, Sleight of Hand 4, Spellcraft 4, Tumble 4
2 (8) - Balance 5, Gather Information 1, Knowledge (nature) 5, Listen 5, Perform (dance) 5 Sleight of Hand 5, Spellcraft 5, Tumble 5
3 (8) - Gather Information 3, Knowledge (arcana) 2, Listen 6, Perform (dance) 6, Sleight of Hand 6, Spellcraft 6
4 (8) - Gather Information 5, Knowledge (arcana) 6, Listen 7, Sleight of Hand 7
5 (8) - Gather Information 7, Knowledge (arcana) 8, Listen 8, Perform (stringed instruments) 4
6 (6) - Concentration 6, Diplomacy 7
7 (8) - Knowledge (arcana) 10, Listen 10, Perform (stringed instruments) 8
8 (8) - Knowledge (arcana) 11, Listen 11, Perform (stringed instruments) 10, Profession (astrologer) 4
9 (6) - Concentration 10, Knowledge (arcana) 12 (cc)
10 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 13 (cc), Listen 13, Profession (astrologer) 6
11 (6) - Decipher Script 1, Knowledge (nature) 7, Perform (stringed instruments) 13
12 (6) - Decipher Script 7
13 (8) - Concentration 16, SKILL TRICK: Conceal Spellcasting
14 (8) - Bluff 5, Concentration 17, Diplomacy 8, Perform (dance) 7
15 (8) - Bluff 8, Concentration 18, Diplomacy 9, Perform (dance) 8, SKILL TRICK: Social Recovery
16 (8) - Concentration 19, Diplomacy 10, Perform (dance) 10, Spellcraft 8, SKILL TRICK: False Theurgy
17 (8) - Concentration 20, Diplomacy 13, Perform (dance) 14
18 (8) - Concentration 21, Diplomacy 17, Perform (dance) 17
19 (8) - Concentration 22, Diplomacy 20, Perform (dance) 21
20 (8) - Concentration 23, Diplomacy 23, Perform (dance) 23, SKILL TRICK: Listen to This

Balance: 5
Bluff: 8
Concentration: 23
Decipher Script: 7
Diplomacy: 23
Gather Information: 7
Knowledge (arcana): 13
Knowledge (nature): 7
Listen: 13
Perform (dance): 23
Perform (stringed instruments): 13
Profession (astrologer): 6
Sleight of Hand: 7
Spellcraft: 8
Tumble: 5

Skill Tricks: Conceal Spellcasting, False Theurgy, Social Recovery, Listen to This

Base Saves:
Fort: +10
Ref: +11
Will: +16

Maneuvers:
6 - Battle Leader's Charge, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, Mountain Hammer, Vanguard Strike, Bolstering Voice (stance)
9 - Action Before Thought, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Punishing Stance (stance)

Notable Spells:
-Bard goodies (Inspirational Boost, Glibness, etc.)
-Some healing spells (available from both Bard and Druid)
-Party buffs

Notable Items:
-Snowflake Wardance means Scimitar or Longsword are going to be the weapons of choice
-A Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind, since I couldn't fit in Mind Over Body
-A Vest of Legends to buff up Inspire Courage
-All the standard stuff

The SneakA gish who does the gish thing, but also the sneaky thing. It would have been cool to use Beguiler in this build, but they make, like, the absolute worst gishes, so Wizard it is. In terms of doing the rogue job, this character has Trapfinding and plenty of search/disable device to get by, access to Knock to make up for only one rank in open lock, excellent stealth (maxed hide/MS and Darkstalker, along with spells), and lots of backstabbing potential (4d6 sneak attack, Craven, Hunter's Eye for 7d6 or 8d6 more, Staggering Strike, maxed Iaijutsu Focus via Human Paragon's floating class skill).

This is the first of these characters I built, and it was for an actual game. She was a small-time thief who was caught and rehabilitated by a big-time wizard she tried to rob, but eventually found the life of magical academia too constraining and moved on to a life of adventuring. Made a pretty satisfying character to play, especially since I was borrowing heavily from my own dissatisfaction with the academic life at the time.

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Race: Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 15 > 17
Con: 14
Int: 15 > 20
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Level Progression
1 - Ranger 1 - Darkstalker, Combat Casting
2 - Human Paragon 1
3 - Wizard 1 - Extend Spell, Two-Weapon Fighting
4 - Wizard 2 - Int 16
5 - Human Paragon 2 - Practiced Spellcaster (wizard)
6 - Fighter 1 - Craven
7 - Human Paragon 3 - Int 18
8 - Unseen Seer 1 - Dex 16
9 - Unseen Seer 2 - Arcane Strike
10 - Unseen Seer 3
11 - Unseen Seer 4
12 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Staggering Strike, Dex 17
13 - Abjurant Champion 2
14 - Abjurant Champion 3
15 - Abjurant Champion 4 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
16 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Int 19
17 - Unseen Seer 5
18 - Unseen Seer 6 - Persistent Spell
19 - Unseen Seer 7
20 - Unseen Seer 8 - Int 20

ACF's: Abrupt Jaunt, Martial Wizard, Skilled City-Dweller (Ride > Tumble, Survival > Sense Motive, Nature > Local), Sneak Attack Fighter, Thug, Trap Expert

Skills:

1 (36) - Concentration 4, Disable Device 4, Handle Animal 1, Hide 4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 1, Knowledge (geography) 1, Knowledge (local) 1, Move Silently 4, Search 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 4, Tumble 4
2 (7) - Balance 5, Iaijutsu Focus 1, Open Lock 1
3 (5) - Concentration 6, Iaijutsu Focus 4
4 (6) - Concentration 7, Iaijutsu Focus 5, Spellcraft 4
5 (8) - Concentration 8, Hide 8, Iaijutsu Focus 7, Spot 5
6 (8) - Iaijutsu Focus 8, Sleight of Hand 7
7 (9) - Concentration 10, Search 8, Spot 8
8 (11) - Disable Device 5, Iaijutsu Focus 11, Move Silently 8, Search 5, SKILL TRICK: Conceal Spellcasting
9 (11) - Disable Device 7, Hide 10, Iaijutsu Focus 12, Move Silently 10, Search 7, SKILL TRICK: Point it Out
10 (11) - Disable Device 9, Hide 13, Iaijutsu Focus 13, Move Silently 13, Search 8, Sleight of Hand 8
11 (11) - Disable Device 11, Hide 14, Move Silently 14, Search 11, Spot 12
12 (7) - Concentration 11, Iaijutsu Focus 15, Spellcraft 6, SKILL TRICK: Spot the Weak Point
13 (7) - Concentration 13, Iaijutsu Focus 16, Spellcraft 8, SKILL TRICK: False Theurgy
14 (7) - Concentration 15, Iaijutsu Focus 17, Tumble 6, SKILL TRICK: Clarity of Vision
15 (7) - Concentration 18, Iaijutsu Focus 18, Tumble 9
16 (7) - Concentration 19, Iaijutsu Focus 19, Tumble 12, SKILL TRICK: Acrobatic Backstab
17 (11) - Concentration 20, Disable Device 13, Hide 17, Iaijutsu Focus 20, Move Silently 16, Search 13
18 (11) - Concentration 21, Disable Device 15, Hide 19, Iaijutsu Focus 21, Move Silently 19, Search 15
19 (11) - Concentration 22, Disable Device 17, Hide 22, Iaijutsu Focus 22, Move Silently 21, Search 17
20 (12) - Concentration 23, Decipher Script 1, Disable Device 20, Hide 23, Iaijutsu Focus 23, Move Silently 23, Search 20

Balance: 5
Concentration: 23
Decipher Script: 1
Disable Device: 20
Handle Animal: 1
Hide: 23
Iaijutsu Focus: 23
Knowledge (dungeoneering): 1
Knowledge (geography): 1
Knowledge (local): 1
Move Silently: 23
Open Lock: 1
Search: 20
Sense Motive: 4
Sleight of Hand: 8
Spellcraft: 8
Spot: 12
Tumble: 12

Skill Tricks: Acrobatic Backstab, Clarity of Vision, Conceal Spellcasting, False Theurgy, Point it Out, Spot the Weak Point

Base Saves:
Fort: +8
Ref: +6
Will: +16

Notable Spells:
-Stuff to help with stealth (Superior Invisibility being the standout)
-Hunter's Eye adds +7d6 sneak attack due to Unseen Seer's caster level boost. Get 2 more caster levels via items and it's 8d6. Not bad.
-Normal gish buffs

Notable Items:
-Like the others, could use Novice Rings of the Diamond Mind to shore up low saves.
-Glove of the Master Strategist to trigger Iaijutsu Focus, since she's not proficient with Gnomish Quickrazors
-Sneaky goodies
-All the standard stuff

The BlasterIt took me a while to decide how I was going to make a character who felt like a gish but filled the mechanical role of the blaster arcanist. I ended up with a sword-chucking Swiftblade who focused on spamming Whirling Blade with metamagic attached to it. Thanks to Swiftblade's extra standard action, at high levels this character has no problem chucking out 6 Whirling Blade attacks per round (Quicken+Twin, Twin, Twin), which I think gets the blaster's job done.

Of the four characters I've come up with here, this one has the least fluff built into it. It's pretty much just a Swiftblade. So, it lends itself to pretty much any character concept that can fit a gish.

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Race: Fire Elf

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 16 > 18
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 16 > 19
Wis: 8
Cha: 6

Level Progression:
1 - Wizard 1 - Combat Casting, Expeditious Dodge
2 - Wizard 2
3 - Wizard 3 - Spell Mastery
4 - Wizard 4 - Int 17
5 - Wizard 5 - Mobility
6 - Wizard 6 - Signature Spell (Whirling Blade)
7 - Swiftblade 1
8 - Swiftblade 2 - Int 18
9 - Swiftblade 3 - Arcane Strike
10 - Swiftblade 4
11 - Swiftblade 5
12 - Swiftblade 6 - Quicken Spell, Str 17
13 - Swiftblade 7
14 - Swiftblade 8
15 - Swiftblade 9 - Twin Spell
16 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Str 18
17 - Abjurant Champion 2
18 - Abjurant Champion 3 - Arcane Thesis (Whirling Blade)
19 - Abjurant Champion 4
20 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Int 19

ACF's: Focused Specialist (transmutation), Martial Wizard, Skilled City-Dweller (Ride > Tumble), Sudden Shift

Skills:

1 (20) - Concentration 4, Knowledge (arcana) 4, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 4, Knowledge (geography) 4, Spellcraft 4
2 (5) - Concentration 5, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 5, Knowledge (geography) 5, Spellcraft 5
3 (5) - Concentration 6, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 3, Spellcraft 6
4 (5) - Concentration 7, Decipher Script 1, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 5, Spellcraft 7
5 (5) - Concentration 8, Decipher Script 4, Spellcraft 8
6 (5) - Concentration 9, Decipher Script 5, Spellcraft 9, Use Magic Device 1 (cc)
7 (7) - Balance 5, Concentration 10, Spellcraft 10
8 (8) - Concentration 11, Spellcraft 11, Tumble 6
9 (8) - Concentration 12, Spellcraft 12, Tumble 12
10 (8) - Concentration 13, Spellcraft 13, Spot 5, Tumble 13
11 (8) - Concentration 14, Spellcraft 14, Spot 8, Tumble 14, SKILL TRICK: Point it Out
12 (8) - Concentration 15, Spellcraft 15, Spot 12, SKILL TRICK: Spot the Weak Point
13 (8) - Concentration 16, Spellcraft 16, Spot 14, Tumble 16, SKILL TRICK: Clarity of Vision
14 (8) - Concentration 17, Jump 2, Spellcraft 17, Spot 17, Tumble 17
15 (8) - Concentration 18, Jump 5, Spellcraft 18, Spot 18, SKILL TRICK: Extreme Leap
16 (6) - Concentration 19, Spellcraft 19, Spot 19 (cc), Tumble 19
17 (6) - Concentration 20, Spellcraft 20, Spot 20 (cc), SKILL TRICK: Twisted Charge
18 (6) - Concentration 21, Spellcraft 21, Spot 21 (cc), Tumble 21
19 (6) - Concentration 22, Spellcraft 22, Spot 22 (cc), SKILL TRICK: Back on Your Feet
20 (6) - Concentration 23, Spellcraft 23, Spot 23 (cc), Tumble 23

Balance: 5
Concentration: 23
Decipher Script: 5
Knowledge (arcana): 5
Knowledge (architecture and engineering): 5
Knowledge (geography): 5
Knowledge (nobility and royalty): 5
Spellcraft: 23
Spot: 23
Tumble: 23
Use Magic Device: 1

Skill Tricks: Back on Your Feet, Clarity of Vision, Extreme Leap, Point it Out, Spot the Weak Point, Twisted Charge

Base Saves:
Fort: +6
Ref: +12
Will: +15

Notable Spells:
-Haste (duh)
-Whirling Blade (also duh)
-Normal gish stuff

Notable Items:
-Lesser Metamagic Rods can help you out a lot...Quickened Twinned Whirling Blade is good, but Quickened Twinned Repeating Widened Whirling Blade is even better
-Again, a Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind is a must-have for Mind Over Body
-All the standard stuff

Adaptation: As Randomguy points out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14989850&postcount=3) in the thread, this build may well be better made with Sorcerer instead of Wizard. Doing so will lose you 9th level spells, but will allow you to spam substantially more Whirling Blades per round, thanks to access to the Arcane Fusion line. You'll also drop Spell Mastery and Signature Spell (which are useless for Sorcerers), and replace them with Expeditious Dodge and Mobility, which you no longer get via Wizard bonus feats.

Going this route also has a few other benefits: Using the Battle Sorcerer variant negates the need for you to be an elf (since it grants the martial weapon proficiency we took elf for), allowing you to go Human instead. I recommend Power Attack for your bonus feat. Arcane Spellsurge also negates the need for Quicken Spell. Unfortunately, due to Twin Spell's prerequisite, you have to replace it with another metamagic feat instead of something like Practical Metamagic; I recommend Widen Spell.
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So, that's all I got. Thanks for reading (if you didn't tl;dr this monstrosity, that is, which I would totally understand). Whaddaya think?

Would this function as an effective party?
Do you have ideas to improve these characters, or ideas for characters of your own that would fit in with this concept?
Do you think my whole thesis that gishes are usually boring is way off the mark, or does it bother you too?
Are there other issues with gishes (like their tendency to mature late) that you think are bigger barriers to playing them? Do you have ideas for solving those problems?
Do you think that posting this thread in the first place was a gigantic waste of time?

Lemme know!

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*edits*

Changed the blaster to be a transmuter, due to Swiftblade entry requirements.
Corrected the sneak's skill progression to account for the two extra skill points granted by the Thug fighter variant.
Added the "adaptation" section to the blaster, per Randomguy's comments.
Fixed the healer's attribute point buy (added 2 str).

Sgt. Cookie

2013-03-29, 01:43 PM

Your healer is nice, but I can one-up him, with Cleric casting:

Savage Bard 6/Ur-Priest 3/Prestige Paladin 11

All the heroic flavour of a Paladin, without the crapiness that accompanies it.

This works by RAW, because although you have to be Evil to take Ur-Priest levels, you don't have to be Evil to advance the casting. You don't get very many spells per day, but you do have access to ALL Cleric and Paladin spells. And some low level Bard spells, to boot. Downside? your Wisdom takes priority over Charisma.

Because Prestige Paladin IS, technicaly, a spellcasting class, you add your full Paladin Level to your caster level (Half due to advancement and half again due to Ur-Priest rules), alongside half your Bard level. So, your total Caster Level is 17.

It uses one less Bard level than you do, but Devoted Performer and Initiate of Milil feats mean that you still Bard it out as a level 17 Bard.

Since this is a completely different build, all but the first two feats are useless: Snowflake Wardance (You have a Wis focus), Song of the White Raven (No Warblade Levels), Shape Soulmeld (You have no Dex Bonus to AC), Open Chakra (Your reflex save is abysmal), Arcane Strike (Ur-Priest casting), Practiced Spellcaster (Caster Level of 17, do you really need more?).

Instead, pick up Spell Focus (Evil) as your third level feat and Ride as your Sixth. Stop by an Otugh hole (Complete Scoundrel) for Iron Will as soon as possible. Your 9th level feat can become Song of the Heart. Choose Devoted Performer (Complete Adventurer) as your 12th level Feat and at 15th level, pick up Serenity (Dragon Compendium), so your Paladin abilities are based off Wisdom. Choose Initiate of Milil (Champoins of Valor Web Enhancement) as your 18th level feat.

This build has all the Bard goodies of your build, but he tacks on Paladin Goodies, Paladin Spells AND Cleric spells. His Bard abilities don't really progress until 18th level, but that is an acceptable sacrifice.

Randomguy

2013-03-29, 01:47 PM

I'd have gone with sorcerer instead of wizard for the blaster: Arcane Fusion could bring your spells per round up to ridiculous levels. Especially since sorcerer frees up 2 feats, which you could use for 2 metamagic reducers (like easy metamagic (Twin Spell) and Arcane Thesis (Arcane fusion)) which would let you cast:

A: Twinned Whirling Blade (Level 4 spell, 2 castings)
B: Twinned Arcane Fusion (A, Whirling Blade) (Level 7 spell, 6 castings)
C: Greater Arcane Fusion (B, A) (level 8 spell, 8 castings)

And with swiftblade you can cast Greater arcane fusion twice a round, for 16 castings of whirling blade and more than double the damage output of the current build.
You'd also lose Abrupt Jaunt, but you make up for it with Wings of Cover.

Also, I'm not sure that specialist wizards other than transmuters can even get into swiftblade, since they can't use all their spell slots on Haste. Unless maybe they left those slots empty.

As for my thoughts, I think that the would make a fully functional party. Maybe even more functional that most, thanks to the abundance of arcane casting.

Xervous

2013-03-29, 01:50 PM

obviously, if you're going the GAF route with swiftblade, you are casting 3 of them each round :P

arcane spellsurge obviously.

A_S

2013-03-29, 01:51 PM

My understanding is that classes which advance spellcasting do not count as "spellcasting classes" in and of themselves. For example, if I made a Spellthief 1/Beguiler 9/Unseen Seer 10, I would not expect to be able to double count the Unseen Seer levels for Master Spellthief to achieve a caster level of 30. At the very least, doing so would be extreme cheese based on a highly questionable interpretation of "spellcasting class," no?

*edit* Hmmm, I'd been counting on using prepared Conjuration spells to cast Whirling Blade spontaneously, but you're right, that does run afoul of Swiftblade's prerequisite wording. Guess I can't get Abrupt Jaunt in there.

Sorc may well be a better choice, there...it misses out on 9th level spells, but gets more Whirling Blade spam, which I guess is the point of the build. Worth it, do you think?

*edit 2* Oh, and although Sorcerer does free up two feats (Spell Mastery and Signature Spell), it also grants two less bonus feats (the Martial Wizard bonus feats, which I'm using for Swiftblade prerequisites), so it's a wash in that department.

RFLS

2013-03-29, 02:00 PM

These are damn beautiful. I may swipe the concept at some point, if you don't mind.

Sgt. Cookie

2013-03-29, 02:01 PM

Extreme? Maybe, required? Yes. Very much so.

A_S

2013-03-29, 02:14 PM

These are damn beautiful. I may swipe the concept at some point, if you don't mind.

Thanks :) ! And, of course I don't mind.

Extreme? Maybe, required? Yes. Very much so.

Hmmm...it's a cool TO trick if it works (which I'm still skeptical about...even the Word doesn't use that interpretation when cheesing out its Ur-Priest caster level, it just gets levels in a bunch of different base casting classes that reference one another for their own effective CL). But I was going for a much more practical optimization thing here. Like, I would allow these characters at my table, no problem.

Larkas

2013-03-29, 02:22 PM

Now, those are beautiful! :smalleek: Great work, mate! I just have one idea to give, actually: see if you can fit some debuffing and battlefield controlling potential into either the healer or the sneak!

Sgt. Cookie

2013-03-29, 02:30 PM

Hmmm...it's a cool TO trick if it works (which I'm still skeptical about...even the Word doesn't use that interpretation when cheesing out its Ur-Priest caster level, it just gets levels in a bunch of different base casting classes that reference one another for their own effective CL). But I was going for a much more practical optimization thing here. Like, I would allow these characters at my table, no problem.

For this build, the difference betweem TO and PO is "Do I get my full Paladin Level to my caster level?". TO answer is Yes, PO answer is No.

Honestly, though, CL 17 is anything but broken.

A_S

2013-03-29, 02:36 PM

For this build, the difference betweem TO and PO is "Do I get my full Paladin Level to my caster level?". TO answer is Yes, PO answer is No.

Honestly, though, CL 17 is anything but broken.

Yeah, I guess what you're suggesting is really just a not-very-cheesy use of a rules interpretation that would have extremely-cheesy consequences if used in other ways.

*edit*
Now, those are beautiful! :smalleek: Great work, mate! I just have one idea to give, actually: see if you can fit some debuffing and battlefield controlling potential into either the healer or the sneak!
Thanks! I think when it comes to battlefield control, that's largely a matter of spell selection. There's nothing stopping anybody here from picking Solid Fog, for instance, or whatever else you like in that area (the healer even gets two level 9 spells, so he could grab Time Stop + Vortex of Teeth cheese).

As for debuffing, the two big ticket items I see are channeled Irresistable Dance (a no-save-just-lose that the tank gets access to at level 14 13) and Staggering Strike from the sneak. As with BFC, though, no reason not to stick some more spells along those lines into somebody's spell list

Unrelated: Just made a couple corrections/changes to the OP, noted there.

Larkas

2013-03-29, 02:46 PM

@Sgt. Cookie: Hmmm... Divine Crusader/Contemplative/Prestige Paladin might work too! But, to be honest, I think I prefer A_S's... Arcane Casting and all. If Fochlucan Lyrist didn't need Druidic, Sublime Chord/Divine Crusader could work just fine...

Norin

2013-03-29, 02:48 PM

Nice builds, with some unusual twists. Great!!

I want more. :smallwink:

Tokuhara

2013-03-29, 03:12 PM

I had an oddly similar idea, but idk how well it'd work as a party.

The party would have one restriction: Hybrid classes only (so Bard, Hexblade, Duskblade, Spellthief, PF's Inquisitor, Paladin, PF's Summoner, PF's Magus)

How well could a party survive if the party is made of classes that are split-focused?

A_S

2013-03-29, 03:22 PM

Nice builds, with some unusual twists. Great!!

I want more. :smallwink:

Thank you!

As for more...those four can't be the only D&D character concepts around. Pick another one and see if you can gish-ify it. See how many different twists we can put on this idea?

I had an oddly similar idea, but idk how well it'd work as a party.

The party would have one restriction: Hybrid classes only (so Bard, Hexblade, Duskblade, Spellthief, PF's Inquisitor, Paladin, PF's Summoner, PF's Magus)

How well could a party survive if the party is made of classes that are split-focused?

Hm...well, because casting is so strong in 3.5/PF, hybrids tend to be stronger than non-casting versions. So, like, Bard is just straight-up better than Marshall, Magus and Duskblade are both better than Fighter, etc. So, a party of Magus, Bard, Summoner, Spellthief would be pretty strong, I would think; it'd only suffer for not having a tier 1-2 caster in it. But honestly, even though that's a classic composition (fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard), it tends to lead to pretty unsatisfying play if the casters have any idea at all what they're doing.

So, I think an all-hybrid party would be really fun to play, and quite effective.

Norin

2013-03-29, 03:31 PM

how about minionmancer and debuffer?

preferably necro based. :smallsmile:

Tokuhara

2013-03-29, 03:35 PM

As a note, the classes would get a retooling so they fit Pathfinder rules and classes wouldn't overshadow each other (Magus & Duskblade/Hexblade mostly, though others could fall into the same traps) and it'd be a published adventure (Emerald Claw) with more than just "Enter Dungeon. Kill Everything. Next Dungeon." type of encounters (I'd modify 4e's Skill Challenges to work for 3.5). And also, I'd treat this much like a test of Player Skill than "Here's my build. Watch me Kill everything", allowing creativity to outweigh "standard" options (for instance, a fight with drake eggs that the party could wade into and face the drakes that hatch 1/round, or they could drop the roof on them and paste them all) [Wow, I'm quoting and side-noting a lot].

Edit: Here's the few Non-PF class themes and how I plan on implementing them-

Duskblade - More of an Arcane Paladin who is themed around the idea of Protecting Magic at All Costs. Looking at letting them start with 0 ASF in Medium Armor and Shields and making them less cast-y (like Paladin)

Hexblade - This one's the doozy. I'm going to treat Hexblade like witch/fighter gish with a super-selective spell list. They get access to Witch's hexes as Witch Level/2

Spellthief - This one ironically doesn't need much modification.

And as a note, I forgot 2 classes that I consider "Hybrids":

Ranger (how on earth did I miss this one?) and Alchemist (Sort of a Melee/Ranged/Buffer/Healer hybrid)

Dusk Eclipse

2013-03-29, 03:38 PM

how about minionmancer and debuffer?

preferably necro based. :smallsmile:

Get some necromancy-making spells on the sneak guy and you get tons of flanking buddies, for debuffing you could add fell drain to your touch spells.

Edit: With some variance in spell selection you can cover almost all roles fairly easy.

Larkas

2013-03-29, 03:51 PM

A_S

2013-03-29, 04:12 PM

Okay, tentative build: Savage Bard 7/ Druidic Avenger 1/ Crusader 1/ Divine Crusader 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 9.

I didn't double check everything, but it should qualify for the hardest parts. Ideally, we'd want a level of Contemplative and/or Prestige Paladin. Damn, I have to recheck everything when I get back home :smallbiggrin:

Doesn't hit +7 BAB in time for DC. But you could pick up an extra level of Bard and still get ninths (dropping one level of FL), you'd just cast as a 9/9 DC/SC instead of 10/10.

Minionmancer gish sounds awesome. I actually have one lying around, though it doesn't stick to the restrictions I used in the OP at all:The classic "conflicted demon-hunter" archetype. FE at level 2 hints at a standard "home village murdered by demons, looking for revenge" backstory. Full Malconvoker class features for Summon Monster and Planar Binding goodness, 8th level Nar Demonbinder spells. Bonus points for TWFing like a proper demon hunter should (what do you think Illidan's weapons were in D&D terms?). A splash of ToB to take advantage of all those flankers you can summon.

Race: Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 15 > 20

Level Progression:
1 - Mystic Ranger 1 - Iron Will, Spell Focus (conjuration)
2 - Mystic Ranger 2 - FE (outsider [evil])
3 - Mystic Ranger 3 - Augment Summoning, Two-Weapon Fighting (b)
4 - Mystic Ranger 4 - Endurance (b), Cha 16
5 - Mystic Ranger 5
6 - Mystic Ranger 6 - Sword of the Arcane Order
7 - Malconvoker 1
8 - Malconvoker 2 - Cha 17
9 - Malconvoker 3 - Arcane Strike
10 - Nar Demonbinder 1
11 - Malconvoker 4
12 - Legacy Champion 1 - Extend Spell, Cha 18
13 - Legacy Champion 2
14 - Legacy Champion 3
15 - Legacy Champion 4 - Practiced Spellcaster (Nar Demonbinder)
16 - Legacy Champion 5 - Cha 19
17 - Legacy Champion 6
18 - Crusader 1 - Demon Mastery
19 - Mystic Ranger 7 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (b)
20 - Crusader 2 - Cha 20

ACF's: Planar Ranger, Crowd Walker, Skilled City-Dweller (Ride>Tumble, Survival>Sense Motive)

Maneuvers: Covering Strike, Flanking Maneuver, Mountain Hammer, Vanguard Strike, White Raven Tactics

Stances: Leading the Charge, Tactics of the Wolf

Skills:

1 (36) - Bluff 2 (cc), Concentration 4, Hide 4, Intimidate 2 (cc), Knowledge (the planes) 4, Move Silently 4, Sense Motive 2, Speak Language (Celestial), Spellcraft 4, Spot 1, Tumble 4
2 (9) - Concentration 5, Hide 5, Knowledge (history) 2 (cc), Knowledge (the planes) 5, Move Silently 5, Tumble 5
3 (9) - Bluff 3 (cc), Concentration 6, Hide 6, Move Silently 6, Spellcraft 6, Spot 3, Tumble 6
4 (9) - Concentration 7, Hide 7, Intimidate 3 (cc), Knowledge (history) 3 (cc), Knowledge (the planes) 7, Move Silently 7, Tumble 7
5 (9) - Bluff 4 (cc), Concentration 8, Hide 8, Move Silently 8, Spellcraft 8, Spot 5, Tumble 8
6 (9) - Concentration 9, Hide 9, Intimidate 4 (cc), Knowledge (history) 4 (cc), Knowledge (the planes) 9, Move Silently 9, Tumble 9
7 (5) - Bluff 7
8 (5) - Bluff 10, SKILL TRICK: False Theurgy
9 (5) - Bluff 12, Intimidate 5 (cc), Knowledge (the planes) 10
10 (5) - Concentration 13, Spellcraft 9
11 (5) - Bluff 14, Concentration 14, Knowledge (history) 5 (cc)
12 (7) - Bluff 15, Concentration 15, Tumble 14
13 (7) - Bluff 16, Concentration 16, Hide 10, Move Silently 10, Spellcraft 10, Tumble 16
14 (7) - Bluff 17, Concentration 17, Hide 12, Move Silently 12, Tumble 17
15 (7) - Bluff 18, Concentration 18, Hide 14, Move Silently 14, Tumble 18
16 (7) - Bluff 19, Concentration 19, Hide 16, Move Silently 16, Tumble 19
17 (7) - Bluff 20, Concentration 20, Hide 18, Move Silently 18, Tumble 20
18 (7) - Balance 5, Concentration 21, Tumble 21
19 (9) - Bluff 21 (cc), Hide 21, Move Silently 21, Tumble 22
29 (7) - Bluff 23 (cc), Concentration 23, Tumble 23

Balance: 5
Bluff: 23
Concentration: 23
Hide: 21
Intimidate: 5
Knowledge (history): 5
Knowledge (the planes): 10
Move Silently: 21
Sense Motive: 2
Spellcraft: 10
Spot: 5
Tumble: 23

Skill Trick: False Theurgy

Larkas

2013-03-29, 04:16 PM

Doesn't it? Wait, Bard 7 + Druid 1 + Crusader 1 gives 7 BAB, does it not? Oh... I used fractional BAB! Otherwise, it would be 6. :smallsmile:

A_S

2013-03-29, 04:17 PM

Ah, right, it does work fine with the fractional rules; I forgot about those.

Norin

2013-03-29, 04:54 PM

Anyone have any good gish builds with a dread necro base?

I like that malconvoker. ;)

As far as hybrids, what about psy war? Is it as good as a duskblade?

A_S

2013-03-29, 05:00 PM

As far as hybrids, what about psy war? Is it as good as a duskblade?

I haven't fooled around with psionics all that much, but the prevailing opinion around these parts seems to be that it's pretty excellent, probably better than duskblade. I believe PsyWar is pretty good for melee blasting, combat maneuver stuff (e.g., reach tripper), and can do some action economy manipulation, whereas Duskblades can pretty much just blast.

Maybe Psyren will drop by and set us straight about the details.

danzibr

2013-03-29, 06:59 PM

I don't have anything to contribute since the only gish I ever made was a Cha-based Kobold Swiftblade, but I wanted to say I like the idea and all of your builds. Especially the sneak. Hopefully I'll be able to play something like it at some point. I made a Goliath Unseen Seer once but never got to play it.

A_S

2013-03-30, 12:14 AM

I made a Goliath Unseen Seer once but never got to play it.

That sounds sorta crazy. How did it work?

A_S

2013-04-01, 12:18 AM

I've been trying to make a decent Dread Necromancer gish for the last couple days, and I can't see, like, any synergy there whatsoever. What do they get?

Low BAB, which means you have to PrC out early, like sorc/wiz gishes.
DR (nice, but basically useless at high levels)
Negative energy attacks (can't be combined with physical attacks).
Rebuke Undead (I guess this can be used to fuel Divine Might...doesn't work with DMM without Southern Magician cheese).
Necromancy spells (Inflict/Harm would be nice if it could be channeled, but Duskblade loses too many caster levels, and Spellsword sucks past 1...nothing else stands out as gishy)
Trivial save bonuses (woo...)
Fear aura (good, but keyed off class levels, so sucks if you PrC out)
A familiar (good, but any gish can get one with a feat)
Extra HD of undead to control (keyed off class levels again)

...and everything else comes too late to really get it and still be a gish. So, I think if you want a necro-gish, your best bet is going to be casting off the Cleric or Wiz/Sorc list, and just picking out some spells and feats that let you command the undead hordes.

Can anybody else come up with anything better? I really like the idea of the death-knight leading his undead hordes from the front, cutting a swath through the flesh of the living with his humongous sword...but I can't seem to make it work very well :( .

Norin

2013-04-01, 02:26 AM

I cant make it work well either, thats why i asked for it.

It seems to do best in caster focus.

Draz74

2013-04-01, 11:03 AM

This is a cool project, btw. I'm impressed by the four in the OP, although I'm a trifle disappointed that none of them were the classic Sorcadin. :smallwink:

Rebuke Undead (I guess this can be used to fuel Divine Might...

... or Law Devotion, or Travel Devotion, or Divine Shield.

Overall, though, I agree that finding any DN synergy is quite a trick. Spellsword 4 would be able to channel Harm 3/day, and "only" loses 2 caster levels ... which could still lead to getting 9ths.

RFLS

2013-04-01, 12:49 PM

I'm also having a hard time with a gish build. I'm working on a sorcadin that specializes in illusion magic, and I can't really get it to do what it's supposed to.

A_S

2013-04-01, 12:53 PM

I'm also having a hard time with a gish build. I'm working on a sorcadin that specializes in illusion magic, and I can't really get it to do what it's supposed to.

Yeah, I saw your thread, it looks a little tough. Can you list out what exactly your goals for the character are? Like:
-You want maxed Stealth?
-You want any other rogue abilities (Disable Device, etc.)?
-For the illusion stuff, how important are SCM class features?

Like I said over there, PF's CC skill rules let you just substitute Unseen Seer for Sacred Exorcist in the standard sorcadin build, but doing so gets you sneakiness kind of late in the build. Is being a late bloomer like that a deal-breaker for you?

RFLS

2013-04-01, 01:10 PM

Sadly, being a late bloomer is a deal breaker =/ The campaigns I play in don't tend to break level 10 that often. Anyway, here're the build goals, in no particular order:

Maxed Stealth and related abilities. Probably necessitates Darkstalker, but that can wait.
Paladin levels. These are core; a sneaky gish is completely doable, as you demonstrated. The Paladin levels are what's hanging me up.
I don't particularly want Rogue abilities. He's not going for disabling traps or anything, but messing with opponents' heads during a fight.
SCM class features are nice, and almost certain to show up later in the build, but definitely not a first.
I'm considering the Dark template on a human. Thoughts?

Overall build goal is a gish that manipulates the crap out of the battlefield through illusion spells, hopefully completely negating fights, or at least demoralizing opponents. That probably calls for learning Shadow Conjuration and Major Image ASAP.

A_S

2013-04-01, 01:30 PM

I'm not sure I'd ever eat the LA for Dark when the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis exists. If LA buyoff is in play, I guess it's fine.

I don't have a whole lot of PF knowledge; is there a Paladin archetype for the gumshoe-inquisitor kind of character? Or has that all been offloaded on the actual Inquisitor class?

If you want access to high-ish level illusions early but Paladin levels are a must-have, then you can't really afford to be losing caster levels on anything else. I really think Shadow Bloodline Sorc 4 / Paladin 2 is probably the way to start the build, and then stuff that advances casting. I'm trying to come up with something better than Sorc 4 / Paladin 2 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 1 / Unseen Seer 8 / Abjurant Champion +4, and I haven't come up with much.

How about this: Shadow Bloodline Sorc 4 / Paladin 2 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 1 / Unseen Seer 2 / Shadowcraft Mage 2 / Legacy Champion 4 (advancing SCM) / Abjurant Champion +4

It gets:

Stealth right off the bat
Illusion spell access 2 levels behind straight sorc, which is the best you can do with those 2 paladin levels
Full SCM class features starting at level 11, which again is the best you can do with two lost caster levels slowing you down
15 BAB, or 16 if you use Battle Sorcerer

*edit* Wait, crap, Legacy Champion loses another caster level, so no 9ths. Probably not worth it.

RFLS

2013-04-01, 05:45 PM

A_S

2013-04-03, 05:08 PM

Okay, here's what I've come up with for a Dread Necromancer gish. It's not a minionmancer at all, but it does at least rely on the DN base. I haven't done the full skill progression, etc.

-----

Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 16

1 - Monk 1 - Dreadful Wrath, Tomb-Tainted Soul
2 - Dread Necromancer 1
3 - Dread Necromancer 2 - Versatile Spellcaster
4 - Dread Witch 1 - Cha 17
5 - Dread Witch 2
6 - Enlightened Fist 1 - Arcane Disciple (competition)
7 - Enlightened Fist 2
8 - Enlightened Fist 3 - Cha 18
9 - Dread Witch 3 - Arcane Strike
10 - Dread Witch 4
11 - Enlightened Fist 4
12 - Dread Necromancer 3 - Travel Devotion, Cha 19
13 - Dread Necromancer 4
14 - Enlightened Fist 5
15 - Enlightened Fist 6 - Fell Frighten
16 - Enlightened Fist 7 - Cha 20
17 - Abjurant Champion 1
18 - Abjurant Champion 2 - Divine Might
19 - Abjurant Champion 3
20 - Enlightened Fist 8 - Cha 21

-----

Goodies:

Dreadful Wrath fear aura, enhanced by Aura of Terror (picked up with Advanced Learning at level 13). Doesn't have a HD cap, increases fear status by two steps at a time, bypasses fear immunity.
9th level spells via Versatile Spellcaster.
Travel Devotion + Rebuke Undead makes sure you get off plenty of full attacks (a common Monk problem). They trigger Dreadful Wrath.
You can channel touch spells (Inflict X Wounds, Bestow Curse, Harm) and ray spells (Enervation, Energy Drain) as part of a full attack action by burning Stunning Fist uses (you have 11/day). Enhance any of them you feel like with Fell Frighten for more fear stacking.
You make up for your crappy BAB with Divine Power, granted by the competition domain, and for your mediocre damage with Arcane Strike and Divine Power.
Cheese bonus: Use the sloppy wording of Enlightened Fist's Arcane Fist ability to bypass long casting times. Punch somebody in the face with a Geas and they have to do what you say!

Don't think I'm gonna do much better. Anybody have suggestions/changes they'd make to the build?

*edit* If you're willing to completely tank your BAB and just rely on always having Divine Power available, you can replace the three Abjurant Champion levels with one level each of Dread Witch, Dread Necromancer, and Enlightened Fist. That gets you two more fear auras (which I believe all get the Aura of Terror benefits, which keep their DC's from being irrelevant, and all stack...Dread Witch one has a low HD cap, though), one more Stunning Fist use, some crappy spell resistance, and a couple Dread Witch fear gimmicks.

Draz74

2013-04-03, 05:50 PM

That there's some clever combos ... but I believe Divine Might has Power Attack as a prerequisite, and Arcane Disciple restricts you to one daily use of each granted spell, which could put a damper on the plan of having Divine Power up constantly.

A_S

2013-04-03, 05:55 PM

Derp, embarrassed I forgot the Power Attack prereq. Not central to the build, though.

You're right, the 1/day DP casting could be a serious issue. I believe, looking at Arcane Disciple's wording, that you could bypass that restriction using Heighten Spell. See any problems with that approach?

Draz74

2013-04-03, 06:04 PM

Nope, that looks legal by RAW. Gets you 4 DP's per day at high levels, assuming you can combine Heighten with Versatile Spellcasting.

A_S

2013-04-03, 06:06 PM

6/day, right? 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Assumes you've got +5 or higher to Wis, of course. That said, I'd probably use some of them on Righteous Might instead, since that's also an excellent buff.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-04-03, 07:15 PM

Wouldn't Versatile Spellcaster bypass the 1/day restriction? I mean it allows you to cast any spell you know.

A_S

2013-04-03, 07:22 PM

I wouldn't think so. The relevant wording in Arcane Disciple is, "Each day, you may [cast] a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level." Versatile Spellcaster lets you burn lower level spell slots to "cast a spell you know that is one level higher." But, since you're still explicitly casting it, I don't see any reason it would allow you to do so more than once per day. Otherwise, you'd be violating Arcane Disciple's clause.

It'd work that way for a prepared spellcaster, since they only get restricted to preparing it once per day, but not for spontaneous, I think.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-04-03, 07:33 PM

Damn... when you put it that way versatile won't work, a shame really.

Draz74

2013-04-03, 10:51 PM

6/day, right? 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

... ok, so now I'm going to emulate your example from earlier and say "derp."

A_S

2013-04-04, 10:01 AM

Alright, here's a more complete version of the build above:

-----

Dread Necromancer GishRace: Human > Necropolitan

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 8 > -
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 16 > 21

Level Progression:
1 - Monk 1 - Dreadful Wrath, Travel Devotion
2 - Dread Necromancer 1
3 - Dread Necromancer 2 - Versatile Spellcaster
4 - Dread Witch 1 - Cha 17
5 - Dread Witch 2
6 - Enlightened Fist 1 - Arcane Disciple (competition)
7 - Enlightened Fist 2
8 - Enlightened Fist 3 - Cha 18
9 - Dread Witch 3 - Ascetic Mage
10 - Dread Witch 4
11 - Enlightened Fist 4
12 - Dread Necromancer 3 - Arcane Strike, Cha 19
13 - Dread Necromancer 4
14 - Enlightened Fist 5
15 - Enlightened Fist 6 - Heighten Spell
16 - Enlightened Fist 7 - Cha 20
17 - Dread Necromancer 5
18 - Enlightened Fist 8 - Fell Frighten
19 - Dread Witch 5
20 - Enlightened Fist 9 - Cha 21

Skills:

1 (28) - Balance 4, Concentration 4, Diplomacy 4, Knowledge (arcana) 4, Knowledge (religion) 4, Spot 4, Tumble 4
2 (5) - Concentration 5, Intimidate 4
3 (5) - Concentration 6, Intimidate 6, Knowledge (arcana) 5
4 (5) - Concentration 7, Intimidate 7, Spellcraft 3
5 (5) - Bluff 1, Concentration 8, Intimidate 8, Spellcraft 5
6 (7) - Balance 5, Concentration 9, Spot 6, Tumble 5, SKILL TRICK: Never Outnumbered
7 (7) - Concentration 10, Spellcraft 7, Spot 8, SKILL TRICK: Point it Out
8 (7) - Concentration 11, Diplomacy 5 (cc), Spellcraft 8, Spot 11
9 (5) - Concentration 12, Intimidate 12
10 (5) - Bluff 4, Concentration 13, Intimidate 13
11 (7) - Concentration 14, Spot 14, Tumble 6, SKILL TRICK: Clarity of Vision
12 (5) - Concentration 15, Intimidate 15, SKILL TRICK: Spot the Weak Point
13 (5) - Bluff 8, Intimidate 16
14 (7) - Concentration 17, Spot 17, SKILL TRICK: False Theurgy
15 (7) - Concentration 18, Spot 18, Tumble 9, SKILL TRICK: Social Recovery
16 (7) - Concentration 19, Spot 19, Tumble 14
17 (5) - Concentration 20, Intimidate 20
18 (7) - Concentration 21, Spot 21, Tumble 18
19 (5) - Concentration 22, Intimidate 22, Tumble 19 (cc)
20 (7) - Concentration 23, Intimidate 23 (cc), Tumble 23

Balance: 5
Bluff: 8
Concentration: 23
Diplomacy: 5
Intimidate: 23
Knowledge (arcana): 5
Knowledge (religion): 4
Spellcraft: 8
Spot: 23
Tumble: 23

Skill Tricks: Clarity of Vision, False Theurgy, Never Outnumbered, Point it Out, Social Recovery, Spot the Weak Point

Base Saves:
Fort: +7
Ref: +10
Will: +16

Notable Spells:
-Offensive touch spells (Vampiric Touch, Inflict X Wounds, (Greater) Harm, Slay Living, etc.) to be channeled
-Ray spells (Enervation, Ray of Exhaustion, Energy Drain, etc.), also can be channeled
-Aura of Terror (central to the fear aspect of the build)
-Everything else good on the DN list

Notable Items:
-Novice Rings of the Diamond Mind for low saves
-Fearsome armor (the DotU version) for move action demoralize
-Belt of Battle is especially useful for allowing you to demoralize and full attack (triggering Dreadful Wrath) in the same round, which gets foes all the way to panicked in one round
-Amulet of Natural Attacks with whatever you want on it
-All the standard stuff

Adaptation: If the Necropolitan template is unavailable, you'll probably want to pick up Tomb Tainted Soul at first level. Delay Travel Devotion to 9th level, then drop whichever of Ascetic Mage, Arcane Strike, or Fell Frighten seems least useful to you. If you go this route, you'll probably want to prioritize Con higher than Str, too.

thethird

2013-04-04, 10:32 AM

One personal favorite of mine is:

Cleric 4 / Ordained Champion 5 / Prestige paladin 1 / Bone knight 10.

Simple flavorful and effective.

I also like

Wu Jen 5 / Warblade 1 / Jade phoenix mage 10 / Arcane Hierophant Abjurant Champion 4 dyslexia I hate you.

A_S

2013-04-04, 10:37 AM

How are you qualifying for Arcane Hierophant with that class layout? Bamboo Spirit Folk (which doesn't work)?

thethird

2013-04-04, 10:48 AM

Lol I hate my dyslexia was trying to write abjurant champion.

On another note I once tried a:

Sha'ir 4 / Fighter 1 / Knight of the raven 4 / Prestige paladin 1 / Knight phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 10

It was fun

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-04, 10:49 AM

Hmm... What about a dwarf crusader/dread necro/runesmith/ebon phoenix mage? I'm on my phone now but I can try to knock out a build stub this evening. Runesmith + Arcane Disciple could give you three uses of Divine Power if necessary, to shore up BAB. But really, I'd save the SLA for Animate Dread Warrior...

(Actually, thinking about it, I have no clue how rune magic would interact with DN casting. I'm away from my books but I'm pretty sure they can qualify if they take Scribe Scroll, but how they prepare runes with their fixed list casting is anyone's guess.)

A_S

2013-04-04, 11:12 AM

I'm totally missing how rune magic + fixed list casting interact oddly. It looks to me like it just makes you become a prepared spellcaster, with your spells known list equal to your class list. And, Permanent Rune is indeed a cute way to get around Arcane Disciple's 1/day restriction.

I don't really see much synergy in the rest of the build, though. The reason I was having trouble coming up with a decent DN gish in the first place is because they have, like, zero combat buffs on their spell list. If you went, like, Crusader 1/DN 4/Runesmith 4/DN +4/Runesmith +1/EPM 5, you'd have a decent chassis (9th level spells, 15 BAB, rune casting, Advanced Learning for a 2nd level spell and a 6th level spell, permanent rune on a 6th level spell, 7th level maneuver/stance). But, you'd run up against all the problems I was whining about up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15004290&postcount=27):

You have no buffs because the DN list doesn't have any (you can add some via Arcane Disciple, but so can everybody else).
Your attack spells don't work with physical attacks, because you have no way of channeling them.
Your class features are barely doing you any good because they're all keyed to class level.

I'm not seeing any reason to use DN in this build rather than Sorcerer or Wizard.

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-04, 07:39 PM

I'm totally missing how rune magic + fixed list casting interact oddly. It looks to me like it just makes you become a prepared spellcaster, with your spells known list equal to your class list.

I guess that makes the most sense; it's just that rune magic mentions that you can create runes when you are preparing your spells, whereas a DN will never prepare spells ordinarily.

I don't really see much synergy in the rest of the build, though. The reason I was having trouble coming up with a decent DN gish in the first place is because they have, like, zero combat buffs on their spell list. If you went, like, Crusader 1/DN 4/Runesmith 4/DN +4/Runesmith +1/EPM 5, you'd have a decent chassis (9th level spells, 15 BAB, rune casting, Advanced Learning for a 2nd level spell and a 6th level spell, permanent rune on a 6th level spell, 7th level maneuver/stance). But, you'd run up against all the problems I was whining about up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15004290&postcount=27):

You have no buffs because the DN list doesn't have any (you can add some via Arcane Disciple, but so can everybody else).
Your attack spells don't work with physical attacks, because you have no way of channeling them.
Your class features are barely doing you any good because they're all keyed to class level.

I'm not seeing any reason to use DN in this build rather than Sorcerer or Wizard.

Yeah, that problem still stands, but the solid Crusader maneuvers plus Arcane Strike and a lot of spells per day means that you can function decently in melee, while your DN spells are mostly there for debuffing, minionmancy and self healing. But it is true, replace DN with Wizard in the build and you can have something functionally the same but much better, thanks to the ability to self-buff. I do like the idea of WRT on a minionmancer, though.

A_S

2013-04-05, 09:01 PM

I guess that makes the most sense; it's just that rune magic mentions that you can create runes when you are preparing your spells, whereas a DN will never prepare spells ordinarily.
Yeah, but the first sentence of that class feature is "A runesmith learns to prepare his arcane spells as runes inscribed on solid objects..." So, Runesmith makes you a prepared caster, and then tells you what happens when you prepare your spells.

I do like the idea of WRT on a minionmancer, though.
Don't minions act on your own initiative count?

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-05, 09:02 PM

Don't minions act on your own initiative count?

Summoned minions do. I don't know of anything that says undead followers would, though.

A_S

2013-04-05, 09:05 PM

Summoned minions do. I don't know of anything that says undead followers would, though.

Hmmm...that's kinda cool. Means finding a martial adept to Animate Dread Warrior would be super helpful for WRT chaining.

Norin

2013-04-09, 12:29 PM

So, I was setting up a build for a backup character and want some critique and suggestions.

We are around lvl 6-7 in our current campaign and my Beguiler\Mindbender does not fit into the playing style and type of encounters and adventuring we seem to be doing alot of. In light of this i am considering to retire him (or have an unfortunate accident), and run my backup char.

The players i play with are always laughing at how silly elves are, so that just made me want to play a very elven elf with some elf on top. Bladesinger screams elf at me but all the official prc's kind of suck.

So here is my build so far. And yeah, it's not the absolute best OP wise, but it's true to the flavour i want on my char and still packs a punch.

Fighter 1 - Combat casting, Power Attack
Elf Gereralist Wizard 1
Elf Paragon 1 - Knowledge Devotion
Elf Paragon 2
Elf Paragon 3
Wizard 2 - Practiced Spellcaster
Spellsword 1
Abj Champ 1
Abj Champ 2 - Arcane Strike
Abj Champ 3
Abj Champ 4
Abj Champ 5 - Feat?
Eldritch Knight 1 - Bonus Feat?
Eldritch Knight 2
Eldritch Knight 3 - Feat?
Eldritch Knight 4
Eldritch Knight 5
Eldritch Knight 6 - Feat?
Eldritch Knight 7
Eldritch Knight 8

The build is quite simple and i find it rather elven flavoured. I was considering Swiftblade, but it's web based (probably not allowed) and the CL loss is too much. ToB is allowed but the group already has a crusader and a warblade.

With what ive set up thus far, i get +18BAB, decent saves, medium to good HP, 9th spells (with 2 9th\day at 20th because of the generalist feature, right?), free weapon focus, the great abj champ features and pretty good damage boost from arcane strike. Knowledge devotion seems to blend in well with my high int (probably 18 at lvl 1, +2 sun elf +2 paragon +levels). I also want to keep my dex pretty decent for that agile elf flavour.

I planned on using longsword and have a comp long bow as backup wep. Mithral chain shirt +X and switching that for some better armour later. That combined with abj champ's silly boosted shield spells and other self buffs, i should be able to be both a caster and melee char.

I need feat suggestions really. Was considering maximize spell at lvl 12 and improved init at EK1 bonus feat. What else?

Any ideas and\or suggestions?

A_S

2013-04-09, 01:39 PM

It looks perfectly serviceable as-is. If you want to squeeze a little more power out of it, I have some suggestions, but not all of them entirely preserve the flavor of the build, so use whatever seems kosher to you:

The fighter dip is iffy...you're not feat starved, so you don't need the bonus feat, just the BAB and proficiencies to get into Spellsword on time. There are much better 1-level dips that'll get you those. The top of the line for me would be Crusader (unfortunately, Warblade only grants melee martial weapon proficiency), but you might also look at Barbarian 1 (would need Heavy Armor Prof. as a feat, but Barbarian 1 is a great dip).
Eldritch Knight is okay as filler in a gish build, but 8 levels of it is an awful lot of no-class-features. Look into cooler options, especially since you've got BAB to spare (the difference between 18 and 16 BAB in actual play for a gish is pretty negligible).
If you want to go metamagic for feats, I don't think you can beat Extend/Persist for gishes. Even without any form of metamagic cost reduction, Persistent Wraithstrike is practically worth two feats on its own.
Consider the Domain Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) in conjunction with Elven Generalist, if it's allowed. The cheesy use of this pairing is an obscure way to get level 9 spells at level 1, but used normally it's just a strong combination to get you extra spells and spell slots, especially if you only barely get into 9ths like this build.

Here's two builds to consider that squeeze more class features out of those last 8 levels without radically changing the build.

ToB variant
1 - Elf Generalist Wizard 1 - Knowledge Devotion
2 - Elf Paragon 1
3 - Elf Paragon 2 - Power Attack
4 - Elf Paragon 3
5 - Wizard 2
6 - Crusader 1 - Combat Casting
7 - Spellsword 1
8 - Abj Champ 1
9 - Abj Champ 2 - Arcane Strike
10 - Abj Champ 3
11 - Abj Champ 4
12 - Abj Champ 5 - Extend Spell
13 - Jade Phoenix Mage 1
14 - Jade Phoenix Mage 2
15 - Jade Phoenix Mage 3 - Persistent Spell
16 - Jade Phoenix Mage 4
17 - Jade Phoenix Mage 5
18 - Ruathar 1 - Practiced Spellcaster (wizard)
19 - Ruathar 2
20 - Ruathar 3

Gets some fun maneuvers, stances (potentially including one of the Devoted Spirit alignment stances) better saves, the same casting, and some somewhat useful class features from JPM and Ruathar, for the cost of one BAB and one feat.

Incantatrix variant1 - Fighter 1 - Combat casting, Power Attack (b)
2 - Elf Generalist Wizard 1
3 - Elf Paragon 1 - Knowledge Devotion
4 - Elf Paragon 2
5 - Elf Paragon 3
6 - Wizard 2 - Extend Spell
7 - Spellsword 1
8 - Abj Champ 1
9 - Abj Champ 2 - Arcane Strike
10 - Abj Champ 3
11 - Abj Champ 4
12 - Abj Champ 5 - Iron Will
13 - Incantatrix 1 - Persistent Spell (b)
14 - Incantatrix 2
15 - Incantatrix 3 - Practiced Spellcaster (wizard)
16 - Incantatrix 4 - [metamagic feat of choice] (b)
17 - Eldritch Knight 1 - Improved Initiative (b)
18 - Eldritch Knight 2 - [feat?]
19 - Eldritch Knight 3
20 - Eldritch Knight 4

This is basically just your build, but sacrificing 2 BAB and a feat to Iron Will to get more metamagic and the ability to persist absolutely everything with Spellcraft checks for free. Incantatrix is never, ever a bad idea.

Norin

2013-04-09, 01:53 PM

Thanks for the ideas.

As for the ToB build, i really wanted to stay out of ToB on this char, just because we already have two ToB characters in the group. I know how grand the JPM is, but i think i will skip it this time.

The Incantatrix build is interesting. It does complicate the build a bit more. Making it less effortless to run, but alot more powerful.

This is basically just your build, but sacrificing 2 BAB and a feat to Iron Will to get more metamagic and the ability to persist absolutely everything with Spellcraft checks for free. Incantatrix is never, ever a bad idea.

The above underlined part has me a bit confused though. What do you mean there? Maybe i have missed something about the incantatrix, or there is some trick or rule i am not aware of. Please elaborate?

Also, persisting wraithstrike should be on my to-do list, i agree. :smallbiggrin:

Draz74

2013-04-09, 01:56 PM

Looks pretty functional in general. I'm not sure you get anything out of taking Abjurant Champion 5, since your caster level is already pretty good and you have Practiced Spellcaster boosting it right up to be equal to your level. You might be better off taking Eldritch Knight 9, since at least that boosts your poorer Saves.

Don't forget the Elven Generalist substitution ability to double the bonuses you get from a familiar. Sadly, your familiar will be limited by only having 2 actual Wizard levels, so this doubled bonus is the main thing you're going to get from it. Of course the optimizers' favorite familiar to double is the Hummingbird, which gives you +4 (IIRC) initiative ... but it's in Dragon Magazine, which is kinda suspect. So pick something else that will be a useful boost. Rats (Fortitude +2) are always popular.

9th spells (with 2 9th\day at 20th because of the generalist feature, right?),
3/day, if you can get your INT pumped up to 28. Shouldn't be too hard with the +2 INT bonus from Elf Paragon, especially if you start as a Gray Elf (MM1) or Fire Elf (UA), which you should if you can.

Mithral chain shirt +X and switching that for some better armour later.
Assuming you end up with DEX +6 or so as a final modifier, there really isn't any better armor than mithral chain shirt. Look up the Twilight armor enhancement (most recently in Magic Item Compendium).

I need feat suggestions really. Was considering maximize spell at lvl 12 and improved init at EK1 bonus feat. What else?

Oh boy, so many options.

First of all, Empower is generally better than Maximize. Other tempting metamagic options are:

Quicken (PHB, duh)
Fell Drain (LM)
Extend (PHB; possibly more efficient to just get in Rod form)
Chain (CA)
Sculpt (CA)
Twin (CA?)
Ocular (LoM)
Searing (Sandstorm)

Or, since you don't have enough Wizard levels to pick up the lovely (overpowered) Spontaneous Divination ACF, you might want to consider stretching your adaptability by picking up Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought.

Instead of Improved Initiative, your bonus feat from EK1 should be Martial Study (ToB), making you able to 1/encounter auto-pass either a Fortitude save (Mind Over Body) or a Reflex save (Action Before Thought).

A_S

2013-04-09, 02:12 PM

The above underlined part has me a bit confused though. What do you mean there? Maybe i have missed something about the incantatrix, or there is some trick or rule i am not aware of. Please elaborate?

Incantatrix gets the class feature Metamagic Effect at class level 3. It allows you to use a full round action to apply a metamagic feat you know to a spell with a duration that is already active. To do so, you use a full round action and make a Spellcraft check (DC 18 + [3 x metamagic modified spell level]). You can do it 3 + Int modifier times/day, and by my reading of the text, failed Spellcraft checks don't count against daily uses (because you have to make the check "to use this ability," and the use limit as the number of times per day you can "use this ability").

So, if you have Bite of the Werebear up (+16 str, +8 con, +7 nat. armor, claw and bite attacks, free Multiattack and Blind Fight, but only lasts rounds/level), you can attempt to make a DC 57 Spellcraft check to persist it, and you can make one attempt per round for as long as the spell is up without spending extra uses.

At level 20, you should easily be rocking:
+23 ranks
+9 Int or so
+2 Know (arcana) synergy

Have your Cleric buddy or anybody with UMD cast Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) on you (surely they can spare the level 2 spell slot, or a charge on a cheap wand), and you'll make the check super easy; otherwise, you'll have to try and squeeze a few more points out of items, or Skill Focus, or whatever.

Oh, and you can also persist other people's spells as they cast them, using a similar mechanic. In case yours weren't cool enough.

Incantatrix is OP.

Norin

2013-04-09, 02:19 PM

Thanks! Let me reply:

Looks pretty functional in general. I'm not sure you get anything out of taking Abjurant Champion 5, since your caster level is already pretty good and you have Practiced Spellcaster boosting it right up to be equal to your level. You might be better off taking Eldritch Knight 9, since at least that boosts your poorer Saves.

Just to get d10 instead of d6 hd really. My con won't be amazing as elf.

Don't forget the Elven Generalist substitution ability to double the bonuses you get from a familiar. Sadly, your familiar will be limited by only having 2 actual Wizard levels, so this doubled bonus is the main thing you're going to get from it. Of course the optimizers' favorite familiar to double is the Hummingbird, which gives you +4 (IIRC) initiative ... but it's in Dragon Magazine, which is kinda suspect. So pick something else that will be a useful boost. Rats (Fortitude +2) are always popular.

I skipped Natural Link because i like my familiar to deliver touch spells really. I was considering Raven for the fly+language. The +Fort rat is not relaly that good as my fort will be pretty much ok from all my PrC's.

3/day, if you can get your INT pumped up to 28. Shouldn't be too hard with the +2 INT bonus from Elf Paragon, especially if you start as a Gray Elf (MM1) or Fire Elf (UA), which you should if you can.

It's a Forgotten Realms campaign, so ill go Sun Elf (+2 int \ -2 con) i think.

Assuming you end up with DEX +6 or so as a final modifier, there really isn't any better armor than mithral chain shirt. Look up the Twilight armor enhancement (most recently in Magic Item Compendium).

Yeah, mithral chain shirt +X until i can get my sticky fingers on some Twilight Mithral [medium armour] +X.

Oh boy, so many options.

First of all, Empower is generally better than Maximize. Other tempting metamagic options are:

Quicken (PHB, duh)
Fell Drain (LM)
Extend (PHB; possibly more efficient to just get in Rod form)
Chain (CA)
Sculpt (CA)
Twin (CA?)
Ocular (LoM)
Searing (Sandstorm)

Or, since you don't have enough Wizard levels to pick up the lovely (overpowered) Spontaneous Divination ACF, you might want to consider stretching your adaptability by picking up Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought.

Instead of Improved Initiative, your bonus feat from EK1 should be Martial Study (ToB), making you able to 1/encounter auto-pass either a Fortitude save (Mind Over Body) or a Reflex save (Action Before Thought).

Uncanny forethought is amazing. Ill look into squeezing that in somehow. :smallwink:

Quicken and empower is tempting. But it comes online quite late withouth metamagic reducers. Extend is what i almost always have a rod for anyways, yeah. But if i want persist i need the feat. Oh the choises. :smalltongue:

Ill look into Martial Study, thanks.

Norin

2013-04-09, 02:24 PM

Incantatrix gets the class feature Metamagic Effect at class level 3. It allows you to use a full round action to apply a metamagic feat you know to a spell with a duration that is already active. To do so, you use a full round action and make a Spellcraft check (DC 18 + [3 x metamagic modified spell level]). You can do it 3 + Int modifier times/day, and by my reading of the text, failed Spellcraft checks don't count against daily uses (because you have to make the check "to use this ability," and the use limit as the number of times per day you can "use this ability").

So, if you have Bite of the Werebear up (+16 str, +8 con, +7 nat. armor, claw and bite attacks, free Multiattack and Blind Fight, but only lasts rounds/level), you can attempt to make a DC 57 Spellcraft check to persist it, and you can make one attempt per round for as long as the spell is up without spending extra uses.

At level 20, you should easily be rocking:
+23 ranks
+9 Int or so
+2 Know (arcana) synergy

Have your Cleric buddy or anybody with UMD cast Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) on you (surely they can spare the level 2 spell slot, or a charge on a cheap wand), and you'll make the check super easy; otherwise, you'll have to try and squeeze a few more points out of items, or Skill Focus, or whatever.

Oh, and you can also persist other people's spells as they cast them, using a similar mechanic. In case yours weren't cool enough.

Incantatrix is OP.

Wow. I never looked into that part of the PrC. How could i miss it? :smalleek:

That just might get the PrC completely banned from my group if i try to use it.

Draz74

2013-04-09, 02:33 PM

Just to get d10 instead of d6 hd really. My con won't be amazing as elf.
Fair point.

I skipped Natural Link because i like my familiar to deliver touch spells really. I was considering Raven for the fly+language. The +Fort rat is not relaly that good as my fort will be pretty much ok from all my PrC's.
True about the rat. I just couldn't think of any other familiar bonus that seemed more appealing.

But if I were you, I'd definitely still go for Natural Link. Delivering touch spells is nice, but for a gish in particular it's rather unnecessary. You won't have any trouble delivering touch spells yourself as a Gish.

... Except wait, you need to be 3rd level Wizard to get Natural Link or Deliver Touch Spells, don't you? OK, moot.

Usually, the appeal of a Raven is trying to convince your DM that it can use wands and scrolls via UMD ... but I don't think UMD is a class skill for any of your classes.

I'm starting to think the only major use you'll get out of a familiar at all is thru the Imbue With Spell Ability spell, letting you break the action economy more at the cost of spell slots.

I guess before that, at least (flying) familiars are always good targets for Benign Transposition ...

Yeah, mithral chain shirt +X until i can get my sticky fingers on some Twilight Mithral [medium armour] +X.
Breastplate, I assume? Only +1 AC better than Chain Shirt, and I'm not sure Twilight + Mithral brings it all the way down to 0% ASF. And if you have DEX +6 or higher, even the +1 AC part goes away.

Quicken and empower is tempting. But it comes online quite late withouth metamagic reducers.

So does Maximize. :smallwink: Actually if you pick the right spells to use it on, even Quickened Level 1 spells (effectively Level 5) can be invaluable ...

A_S

2013-04-09, 02:34 PM

Wow. I never looked into that part of the PrC. How could i miss it? :smalleek:

That just might get the PrC completely banned from my group if i try to use it.

You can ease them into it by starting off with just Extending stuff, or Persisting lower level spells, just saving yourself the higher level spell slots you'd otherwise have to use. It's really only at very high levels that you'll be able to meet the really absurd Spellcraft DC's that let you do things like have effective level 15 spell slots, and if your party is surprised that a wizard can do something OP at level 20, then I don't know what to tell you.

That said, not gonna lie, Incantrix is one of the most-banned PrC's for precisely this reason.

*edit* Oh, yeah, just thought of another feat you might want to look at: Minor Shapeshift, from Complete Mage. Temporary HP equal to HD as many times as you want as a swift action. Great for front-line durability. And, seconding Draz's advice that Quicken is a feat worth having.

Norin

2013-04-09, 02:46 PM

I'm starting to think the only major use you'll get out of a familiar at all is thru the Imbue With Spell Ability spell, letting you break the action economy more at the cost of spell slots.

I guess before that, at least (flying) familiars are always good targets for Benign Transposition ...

My thought exactly. I was thinking a wand for it and use it as tactical movement and such. I love that spell.

Also the raven familiar looks cool. Sounds silly, but sometimes you just have to go with fluff too. :smallwink:

Breastplate, I assume? Only +1 AC better than Chain Shirt, and I'm not sure Twilight + Mithral brings it all the way down to 0% ASF. And if you have DEX +6 or higher, even the +1 AC part goes away.

Yep, something like that. I'm sure ill just stick to mithral shirt, dex and the silly Abj.Champ boosted shield spell combined with miss chance spells\items. Should do the trick.

So does Maximize. :smallwink: Actually if you pick the right spells to use it on, even Quickened Level 1 spells (effectively Level 5) can be invaluable ...

Words of wisdom. Noted. :smallwink:

Norin

2013-04-11, 05:55 AM

1 - Elf Generalist Wizard 1 - Knowledge Devotion
2 - Elf Paragon 1
3 - ...
{spip snip}

Just wondering how you get Knowledge Devotion in at 1st lvl qithout being cleric and converting the domain to the feat?

Prereq is knowledge (any) 5 ranks.

Can i put 1 rank in 5 different knowledge skills and have that count towards the prereq? I was under the impression that i had to have 5 ranks in a knowledge skill, not 5 ranks in total on my different knowledge skills.

Thanks.

A_S

2013-04-11, 06:45 PM

Just wondering how you get Knowledge Devotion in at 1st lvl qithout being cleric and converting the domain to the feat?

Prereq is knowledge (any) 5 ranks.

Can i put 1 rank in 5 different knowledge skills and have that count towards the prereq? I was under the impression that i had to have 5 ranks in a knowledge skill, not 5 ranks in total on my different knowledge skills.

Thanks.

No, I just forgot the skill prereq. Whoops. Swap the order of the first two feats.

Norin

2013-04-12, 03:46 AM

No, I just forgot the skill prereq. Whoops. Swap the order of the first two feats.

Ah, i see. That explains it. :smallwink:

only1doug

2013-04-12, 05:27 AM

Norin

2013-04-12, 07:26 AM

Duskblade will alter my buidl too much. I'm losing my bonus fighter feat, and to get combat casting from dusk i need to take 2 lvl's.

It's a good idea, but not sure if it's fitting in my build.

A_S

2013-04-17, 04:55 PM

Okay, so I've been working on making a version of the blaster in the OP that hits my "gishiness" milestones but gets access to the sorcerer goodness that Randomguy pointed out I was missing (especially Greater Arcane Fusion for far more Whirling Blades). A couple things I've noticed:

Although GAF is sorcerer-only, it can be added to another spell list via Wyrm Wizard or Recaster.
Due to the way it's worded, the spells that you pick out to cast with GAF have to be known via sorcerer (so for this case, I'd have to have Whirling Blade as a sorc spell), but GAF itself still works fine from another spell list.
You can't get 9ths as a sorcerer while getting 9 levels of Swiftblade (for the extra standard action), but if you front-load at least 5 levels of Swiftblade before level 11, you can get 9ths as a Sublime Chord and pull it off.
Unfortunately, the only way I've found to get GAF on SC's spell list without losing another caster level (and therefore denying myself 9ths) is to take the first level of Recaster before 11 and then more later, advancing Sublime Chord.
This means I need to somehow fit 1 level of Recaster, 5 levels of Swiftblade, and some way of getting Bardic Music, all into my first 10 levels. This seems to be extremely hard.
Battle Sorcerer almost works, but doesn't get 3rd level spells in time to get into Swiftblade early. Dragonwrought Kobold cheese might help out here, but would disqualify me from Recaster.
I keep thinking that Prestige Bard will somehow help me, but since it loses a caster level at 1, I'm not sure it's actually any better than a straight-up bard dip.

This really feels like a puzzle that ought to be solvable if I can just find the right oddity from the right splatbook, but I haven't managed yet. I would love some help figuring this out.

Draz74

2013-04-17, 05:25 PM

First of all, a nitpick: the Kobold cheese you would need (Greater Draconic Rite of Passage) doesn't actually have anything to do with being Dragonwrought.

A Kobold could get into Wyrm Wizard pretty easily ... but I guess that's not much help, since WW would require 9 levels to get GAF, wouldn't it?

A_S

2013-04-17, 05:32 PM

I was figuring I'd need both Rite of Passage and Loredrake, but maybe my math was wrong. Doesn't Rite of Passage only grant one extra caster level? Also, only need 4 levels of Swiftblade early, not 5.

The problem with Wyrm Wizard isn't that it can't pick up GAF (the only restriction is that it has to be equal or lower to the highest level spell you can cast), it's that it loses a caster level at the same level it gets Spell Research, so it can't be tacked onto Sublime Chord along with the end of Swiftblade without losing 9ths. If I'm doing that, might as well just go Sorc 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 like was suggested earlier.

*edit* If I take 4 levels of Recaster instead of 2, I can use the first Expanded Knowledge to add Haste to my Sorc list as a level 1 spell from the Trapsmith list...lemme think about whether that helps at all...

*edit 2* No, it doesn't, have to be able to cast 3rds to become a Recaster anyway.

Draz74

2013-04-17, 05:49 PM

Derp, I was looking at completely the wrong ability in Wyrm Wizard.

And I thought you only needed 1 extra level of Sorc casting for the Battle Sorcerer method ... but that's all kinda moot since it would disallow you from Recaster in any case.

I suppose there's always Phaerimm cheese. :smallbiggrin:

A_S

2013-04-17, 06:03 PM

How does that work? I haven't heard about it before.

Turned up this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261490) from a couple years ago, which doesn't sound hopeful. Clay Half Golem doesn't get in even if you can find somebody to turn you into one before level 6 and ignore the fact that it has no listed LA, since its Haste is (Su), not (Sp).

I think, inevitably, levels 6-10 in the build have to look something like:

6 - Swiftblade 1
7 - Swiftblade 2
8 - Swiftblade 3
9 - Swiftblade 4
10 - Recaster 1

...since I doubt I'll be able to get 3 BAB and 3rd level spell access before those levels. So, the goal here is to figure out whether it's possible to:

Be (or somehow count as?) a Changeling
Be able to cast Haste as a spell or (Sp)
Have at least one level of Sorcerer casting
Have 3 BAB
Have Bardic Music

...at ECL 5. I'm kinda thinking the answer is no, but I wanna keep trying.

Draz74

2013-04-17, 07:28 PM

How does that work? I haven't heard about it before.

Phaerimm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146107) are an Aberration race from Lost Empires of Faerun. LA +2, 1d8 racial Hit Dice. Has Sorcerer casting (based on its total Hit Dice) as a racial feature. Which stacks with regular Sorcerer levels.

So at ECL 6, you could be LA +2 / Aberration 1 / Sorcerer 3, for a total of Level 7 Sorcerer Casting. And as it continues taking Sorcerer (or PrC) levels, its casting will only get further and further ahead of what it should have at its ECL.

Oh yeah, and it also allows you to ignore all component requirements of its Sorcerer spells. No XP costs, no material component costs.

So by ECL 15, you could be LA +2 / Aberration 1 / Sorcerer 2 / whatever 1 / Swiftblade 9. You cast as a Level 21 Sorcerer (with no components), and you have a +11 BAB as long as the "whatever" is a class with good BAB. (Crusader, maybe?) Then you only need to get up to BAB 16 by taking another five levels of full-BAB classes (which, incidentally, gets you up to Level 26 Sorcerer casting).

Hey, I did warn you it was cheese. Stinky, stinky cheese.

Vaz

2013-04-17, 07:39 PM

I'm also having a hard time with a gish build. I'm working on a sorcadin that specializes in illusion magic, and I can't really get it to do what it's supposed to.

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 7/Stoneblessed 3 (if not Gnome)/SCM 5/Incantatrix 3

Problem is, you drop 5 Sorcerer Caster Levels, and consequently, can't get the most benefits from it. Still. If you're a Gnome, you get more benefits from it, and can get 9ths.

A_S

2013-04-18, 11:36 AM

If a Wizard has copied a spell into his spellbook that is of a higher level than any spell he can currently cast, would he be considered to "know" that spell by RAW? If so, I think I can get this build to work, albeit a bit cheesily.

*edit* Curmudgeon'd (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15115840&postcount=2961)

A_S

2013-04-19, 09:50 PM

Bahahahahaha...here's one that I think works if you use fractional BAB:

-----

1 - Sorcerer 1 - Alternate Spell Source
2 - Cleric 1
3 - Cleric 2 - Versatile Spellcaster
4 - Mystic Theurge 1
5 - Bard 1
6 - Swiftblade 1
7 - Swiftblade 2
8 - Swiftblade 3
9 - Swiftblade 4
10 - Recaster 1
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Swiftblade 5
13 - Swiftblade 6
14 - Swiftblade 7
15 - Swiftblade 8
16 - Swiftblade 9
17 - Abjurant Champion 1
18 - Abjurant Champion 2
19 - Abjurant Champion 3
20 - Recaster 2

-----

Learn Haste as a Cleric spell via the Time domain; Clerics know their entire spell list. That also lets you cast 2nd level divine spells via Versatile Spellcaster, and Alternate Spell Source lets you also count them as arcane. That gets us into Mystic Theurge, which advances Sorcerer (to 2) and Cleric (to 3), getting us 2nd level spell slots which we can burn to cast Haste, qualifying us for Swiftblade in time (assuming here that using 0/0 3rd level spell slots counts as "all").

By the time we're qualifying for Recaster and Sublime Chord, we cast as a level 4 Sorcerer and level 3 Cleric, which gives us plenty of 2nd level spell slots to burn casting 3rds off the Cleric list, which again, thanks to Alternate Spell Source, can count as arcane, qualifying us for those two classes. From there on out, it's smooth sailing.

I need to go take a shower; I smell like cheese.

*edit* Doesn't work with Southern Magician; caved and used Dragon material instead.