Dealing with a wizard of far higher level (3.5)

[Polar266]

Hi
Our DM has decided to "clone" our wizard and make it chaotic evil and able to cast 9th level spells. Our Party consists of a wizard, a factotum, a ninja (from complete adventurer) and a warblade. We are all level 12 and not too optimized in our rolls, though the warblade has optimized charging to get 2d6 +99 damage.
The Question is what easy ways with our classes are their to kill an optimized higher level wizard without getting killed in the process, assume a reasonable total amount of gold for items, 20k gp.
Any advice would be appreciated

[Venger]

Hi
Our DM has decided to "clone" our wizard and make it chaotic evil and able to cast 9th level spells. Our Party consists of a wizard, a factotum, a ninja (from complete adventurer) and a warblade. We are all level 12 and not too optimized in our rolls, though the warblade has optimized charging to get 2d6 +99 damage.
The Question is what easy ways with our classes are their to kill an optimized higher level wizard without getting killed in the process, assume a reasonable total amount of gold for items, 20k gp.
Any advice would be appreciated

depends heavily on your DM's skill in playing wizard and what high level spells he decided to drop in his lap.

element of surprise is pretty darn important. if you can win initiative and he doesn't have celerity or the like up, you should be able to feed him feet first into the buzz saw that is the warblade. what maneuvers does your warblade specialize in?

what spells does your normal wizard have? is he a straight wizard or did he prc into something? did he specialize? would his clone have abrupt jaunt?

did any of your other party members prc/dip or are they just straight base classes? what did your factotum do? if you can work together and pump his int, have him use his 1st lvl arcane dilettante for nerveskitter, second for heroics (improved initiative), etc, and of course remember brains over brawn lets him add int to init rolls, he should be able to go first and do something horrible to the wizard.

wizard don't tend to be good at grappling, so if he isn't specced for it, a meaty summon such as a gargantuan monstrous centipede will ruin his day. if the warblade doesn't have anything better to do, have him stand next to the wizard and ready actions to disrupt his spellcasting with a maneuver of his choice (bonecrusher, etc) forcing an impossible concentration check.

[Karnith]

You've said that your characters aren't very optimized, but what level of optimization has your DM been making the enemies in the campaign, and what do you expect of the wizard? You said high-op in your post, but it's kind of vital to understand what exactly you mean by that. Because a wizard capable of casting 9th-level spells will easily muder your whole party if built/played competently.

Some general advice/things, that will vary in usefulness depending on op-level:
-Look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851), because you would be well served having freedom of movement, mind blank, flight, teleportation, true seeing, and ways to avoid being disjoined/having your buffs and items dispelled.
-Try to take him by surprise (though it will be incredibly hard to do so). At the very least, try not to let him spend time preparing for your fight.
-This goes along with what I just said, but get everyone's initiative as high as possible, because if he gets a chance to act you're probably all going to die. Depending on the enemy wizard's op-level and the sources that are legal in your game, your party's wizard could be well-served by having a contingent celerity to get something off in the first round.
-You won't be able to reliably dispel his buffs etc. because his caster level is going to be a lot higher than yours. So don't bother trying.
-Make sure you have attacks that can reliably hit ethereal enemies (force effects, etc.).
-Don't group together when you attack the wizard.
-You really need to kill the wizard in the first round. I know I already said it, but it needs to be emphasized.
-You'll need a way to prevent dimensional travel (like Dimensional Lock, though it's too high a level spell for you) so he doesn't just run away and come back again to fight later.

Some ideas:
Is there any way to get a similarly-leveled wizard on your side?
Is there any way to avoid fighting him?

[Venger]

You've said that your characters aren't very optimized, but what level of optimization has your DM been making the enemies in the campaign, and what do you expect of the wizard? You said high-op in your post, but it's kind of vital to understand what exactly you mean by that. Because a wizard capable of casting 9th-level spells will easily muder your whole party if built/played even minimally competently.

Some general advice/things, that will vary in usefulness depending on op-level:
-Look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851), because you would be well served having freedom of movement, mind blank, flight, teleportation, true seeing, and ways to avoid being disjoined/having your buffs and items dispelled.
-Try to take him by surprise (though it will be incredibly hard to do so). At the very least, try not to let him spend time preparing for your fight.
-This goes along with what I just said, but get everyone's initiative as high as possible, because if he gets a chance to act you're probably all going to die. Depending on the enemy wizard's op-level and the sources that are legal in your game, your party's wizard could be well-served by having a contingent celerity to get something off in the first round.
-You won't be able to reliably dispel his buffs etc. because his caster level is going to be a lot higher than yours. So don't bother trying.
-Make sure you have attacks that can reliably hit ethereal enemies (force effects, etc.).
-Don't group together when you attack the wizard.
-You really need to kill the wizard in the first round. I know I already said it, but it needs to be emphasized.
-You'll need a way to prevent dimensional travel (like Dimensional Lock, though it's too high a level spell for you) so he doesn't just run away and come back again to fight later.

Some ideas:
Is there any way to get a similarly-leveled wizard on your side?
Is there any way to avoid fighting him?

this is just going off the information given in the OP, but I don't think that he's going up against any sort of tippy-style wizard. I'm relatively certain his definition of "optimized wizard" and the board's aren't exactly close. my basis for this is "2d6+99 at lvl 12 is optimized"

no offense at all intended, Polar266, we're just trying to figure out exactly what you need to prepare against.

if the party is wizard, factotum, ninja, warblade, I somehow doubt the NPC is going to be attacking them via astral projection from his private demiplane full of osmium golems.

dimensional lock is off limits at lvl 12, but dimensional anchor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) is still a possibility (and a good one) so you should definitely hit him with that so he can't teleport/ghostform/etc away if he starts losing the fight.

[Karnith]

this is just going off the information given in the OP, but I don't think that he's going up against any sort of tippy-style wizard. I'm relatively certain his definition of "optimized wizard" and the board's aren't exactly close. my basis for this is "2d6+99 at lvl 12 is optimized"
Right, I get that, but he said that his group wasn't very optimized and that the wizard would be. And, honestly, at level 12 and with that party, it's entirely possible that a wizard with 9th-level spells could just spam Wail of the Banshee or something until they fail their saves, so it's not even like high-op tactics are necessary to make the fight rocket tag.

But, really, we do need an idea of the optimization level involved to give appropriate advice.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to think that I offered some advice that's useful at all op-levels.

[Venger]

Right, I get that, but he said that his group wasn't very optimized and that the wizard would be. And, honestly, at level 12 and with that party, it's entirely possible that a wizard with 9th-level spells could just spam Wail of the Banshee or something until they fail their saves, so it's not even like high-op tactics are necessary to make the fight rocket tag.

But, really, we do need an idea of the optimization level involved to give appropriate advice.

well, yeah, that's kind of what I meant. I somehow doubt that a "final boss" type character will be played to use one-hit kill tactics like that, but it's definitely a possibility.

we'll have to withhold until he tells us some more information.

[Crake]

Right, I get that, but he said that his group wasn't very optimized and that the wizard would be. And, honestly, at level 12 and with that party, it's entirely possible that a wizard with 9th-level spells could just spam Wail of the Banshee or something until they fail their saves, so it's not even like high-op tactics are necessary to make the fight rocket tag.

But, really, we do need an idea of the optimization level involved to give appropriate advice.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to think that I offered some advice that's useful at all op-levels.

Clearly death ward should be one of the buffs you walk in the door with

[Juntao112]

It is clear that you must all start taking levels in monk.

[Karnith]

Clearly death ward should be one of the buffs you walk in the door with
Which is unfortunately a bit difficult when no one in the party is capable of casting it. Unless somebody's focusing on UMDing, of course.

[Venger]

Which is unfortunately a bit difficult when no one in the party is capable of casting it. Unless somebody's focusing on UMDing, of course.

factota are capable of UMD. a scroll of death ward only costs 700gp, and for a boss fight is a pretty good investment

[Karnith]

factota are capable of UMD. a scroll of death ward only costs 700gp, and for a boss fight is a pretty good investment
Well, they actually need more than one if they want to save more than one person. It's still a good investment when the alternative is a good chance of dying horribly, though.

And I'm not sure if the factotum has ranks in UMD. I really hope that he does, but I'm still stuck where I was before, at the whole op-level thing.

[Venger]

Well, they actually need more than one if they want to save more than one person. It's still a good investment when the alternative is a good chance of dying horribly, though.

And I'm not sure if the factotum has ranks in UMD. I really hope that he does, but I'm still stuck where I was before, at the whole op-level thing.

well, yeah, I meant at least 1 per party member. he said "reasonable wbl" and 20k per person, so people can easily afford that.

a factotum without UMD? gosh I hope he has some ranks in it. can't really imagine one without them. we'll find out soon enough.

[Karnith]

a factotum without UMD? gosh I hope he has some ranks in it. can't really imagine one without them.
I have had rogues in my games decide not to take UMD, despite my advice (sometimes even my insistence) as a DM. The explanations given were usually along the lines of "I don't want to have to spend money on consumables," "I don't want to waste skill points to be a bad wizard," and the ever-popular "that's not what my character would do." So when someone says that they're not optimizing, I try not to assume much.

[Polar266]

To make it more clear by optimized I mean that our DM has gone on the internet and found one of the various wizard handbooks and given all the good stuff to the wizard "clone" regardless of rules. Sorry for not making it clear.

Fortunately our Factotum HAS taken ranks in UMD so we can at least save him from death. I've passed on the information about the scroll and he is also planning to get a wand of dimensional anchor at the next shop point.

Thanks for all the info and advice guys/girls and we came up with another plan to get our wizard to teleport in and use Anti Magic Field via the spell or other item if he does not have it and then get our 2d6+99er to attempt to 1-hit kill him. But if that doesn't work we're planning to pee our pants so that's great.

[Sith_Happens]

To make it more clear by optimized I mean that our DM has gone on the internet and found one of the various wizard handbooks and given all the good stuff to the wizard "clone" regardless of rules. Sorry for not making it clear.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003442515/43192780_2234967_you_are_already_dead__n1296951764 362__answer_1_xlarge.jpeg

...That's about the best advice any of us can give at this point.

...Actually, that's not true. There's also this:

http://i.qkme.me/3sjl18.jpg

[Karnith]

Well, you can always hope that he didn't read the guides correctly, or that he didn't process the information/doesn't know how to use it.

Just kidding. Omae wa mou shindeiru... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSgpU70MZno)

EDIT:
Thanks for all the info and advice guys/girls and we came up with another plan to get our wizard to teleport in and use Anti Magic Field via the spell or other item if he does not have it and then get our 2d6+99er to attempt to 1-hit kill him. But if that doesn't work we're planning to pee our pants so that's great.
I don't know if your DM knows this (hopefully not), but Greater Anticipate Teleportation is a pretty standard spell to have up all the time once you reach high levels, and will give him 3 rounds' notice that you're coming. Which will allow him time to get himself some space and gate in some creatures, prepare to use his heavily-metamagic'd orbs of force, prepare his disjunction, or just teleport away himself to make you waste your resources.

[Polar266]

I'm fairly sure he doesn't know about that particular spell so at least we have that going, he has also said that if/when we do encounter him he will let us bring a back up character to deal with it so he doesn't mean for us to die.

[Kornaki]

You can try the goold ol' bluff check strategy. Get the wizard monologuing, then declare "I shoot him with a sneak attack"

Roll fast, roll high, and start high fiving. If you roll higher than the wizard's hit points, DM - playing a high level wizard for the first time - has a 50% chance of forgetting about stoneskin, wind wall, false life etc. At that point you just need to stall as long as possible to prolong the 'Oh wait he's not dead yet' until it's too late to rewind.