3.5 Familiars for Gishes and other help

[herrhauptmann]

I'm trying to join a pbp game at level 12 gestalt where everyone is a gish. As gishes, we are being hunted by an Inquisition. DM hasn't decided if it's a religious group, or a secular group; but regardless, we only get 1 divine character.



Game starts at level 12, so combos that don't come online until later will probably be useless given the speed of pbp.

I'd sort of like to have a familiar that's actually useful for once
Step 1) Trade out my wizard familiar for some ACF
Step 2) Take the feat Obtain Familiar.
Step 3) ?
My build:


1. Wizard 1// Swordsage 1
2. Wizard 2// Human Paragon 1
3. Human Paragon 2// Fighter 1
4. Human Paragon 3 // Fighter 2
5. Wizard 3// Fighter 3
6. Incantatrix 1// Fighter 4
7. Incantatrix 2// Fighter 5
8. Abjurant Champion 1// Fighter 6
9. Abjurant Champion 2// Swordsage 2
10. Abjurant Champion 3// Swordsage 3
11. Abjurant Champion 4// Swordsage 4
12. Abjurant Champion 5// Swordsage 5


13. Incantatrix3// Swordsage 6
14. Paragnostic Apostle 1// Swordsage 7
15. Jade Phoenix Mage 1// Wizard 4
16. Jade Phoenix Mage 2// Swordsage 8
17. Jade Phoenix Mage 3// Swordsage 9
18. Jade Phoenix Mage 4// Swordsage 10
19. Jade Phoenix Mage 5// Swordsage 11
20. Jade Phoenix Mage 6// Wizard 5

There's some houserules present, but the only one that would probably matter is that classes like spellsword and greenstar adept are full casting instead of 5/10.

Second question. What good gish spells would you guys recommend?
I've got a partial list suggested by someone in an old thread of mine, but it could be improved upon.
1st Level Spells:
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerveskitter (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Fist of Stone (CArc)
Mage Armor as an abjuration spell.
Enlarge Person (PHB)


2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)
Luminous Armor (BoED good preparation casters only)


3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)
Greater Mage Armor (SC)

4th Level Spells:
Greater Luminous Armor (BoED good preparation casters only)
Dimension Door (PHB)
Polymorph (PHB)

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Teleport (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB) (Probably not this one, unless it's got more utility applications than I realize)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)

7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)

[ArcturusV]

Well, Improved Familiar Feat would get you access to the ever popular Imp, who can UMD stuff for you (And thus why it's popular). Hummingbird for the Initiative, which is always useful as well.

I've been having fun with the Sea Snake familiar myself. +3 to Bluff isn't too great, unless you're using bluff a lot of course. Tiny size, natural swim speed, and the venom to be able to take out those less than hardy people is always useful in my experience.

Snow Owl would also be pretty useful in the typical "Scout Familiar" role.

[herrhauptmann]

I forget, does the IMP require you to be evil? Or just heavily imply it?

edit:
Also, I've got a nice list of feats (http://dndtools.eu/feats/?name=Familiar&normal=&rulebook__slug=&required_feats__required_feat__name=&benefit=&special=&description=&page_size=50) that get/modify a familiar. And a few oddballs that snuck in due to poor filters.

[Karnith]

I forget, does the IMP require you to be evil? Or just heavily imply it?
Per the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar)

When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed below are also available to the spellcaster. The spellcaster may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each of the alignment axes (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).
(Emphasis mine)

So you don't need to be evil to have an imp for a familiar, but you can't be good or chaotic.

[herrhauptmann]

Per the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar)

(Emphasis mine)

So you don't need to be evil to have an imp for a familiar.

So with a CE imp, I'm limited to NE, CE, TN, and CN? Or are imps LE? (Giving me LE, NE, LN, TN)

[ArcturusV]

Imps are Devils, and Lawful Evil.

[Kazyan]

Familiars are good for special senses. Pseudodragons (Improved Familiar) have 60 ft Blindsense and Darkvision, for example. That, and Telepathy.

My familiar in the same game is an owl. It's already been mentioned, but owls are great scouts, considering their huge stealth and spot bonuses.

One of the best things you can do with a familiar is to share spells with it, e.g. Cloud of Knives. UMDing wands is another one--in an epic game I'm planning for, my familiar readies an action to use a CL 6 wand of Dimension Step whenever someone shouts a codeword, teleporting itself and the caller away from harm's way.

[Karnith]

So with a CE imp, I'm limited to NE, CE, TN, and CN? Or are imps LE? (Giving me LE, NE, LN, TN)
Imps, as devils, are lawful evil, so you can be LE, NE, LN, or TN.

Quasits are the chaotic evil rough-equivalents of imps, if alignment is a problem.

[ArcturusV]

Course, if you're more towards the Good side of life, there's always the Celestial Familiar feat. Thus you can get familiars like a Lantern Archon (Always useful in my book). Nice free abilities like Magic Circle vs. Evil, Dark Vision, damage immunities and DR means it's not exactly a fragile familiar, natural perfect flight, etc.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, your class build is.... bad. If Spellsword gives full casting, then don't take Human Paragon 2-3 with it, you can't gain +2 levels of spellcasting in a single level per the standard gestalt rules. You don't even qualify for Spellsword when you start taking it in that build, you only have a +2 BAB at 3rd and it requires a +4. Drop the Ranger levels, you're better off with more Fighter, which I'll get to later. Get one of those Swordsage levels at 1st, it gets a base six skill points instead of the four of Human Paragon, and RAW it gets x6 skill points at 1st instead of the standard x4. An alternative would be to gain BAB at 1st level, assuming you're not using fractional BAB rules.

Be good aligned. This is not optional, there is no alternative. You have to be good aligned to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED, which is the biggest reason to use Abjurant Champion over Spellsword in this particular game. If you're not good aligned, and/or want to wear armor, then don't even touch Abjurant Champion. If you do get Abjurant Champion, grab one level of Paragnostic Apostle for Mind Over Matter to get another +2 AC out of (Greater) Luminous Armor.

With fractional BAB, I'd go with the following:
1. Wizard 1// Swordsage 1
2. Wizard 2// Human Paragon 1
3. Human Paragon 2// Fighter 1
4. Human Paragon 3 // Fighter 2
5. Wizard 3// Fighter 3
6. Incantatrix 1// Fighter 4
7. Incantatrix 2// Fighter 5
8. Incantatrix 3// Fighter 6
9. Abjurant Champion 1// Swordsage 2
10. Abjurant Champion 2// Swordsage 3
11. Abjurant Champion 3// Swordsage 4
12. Abjurant Champion 4// Swordsage 5
13. Abjurant Champion 5// Swordsage 6
14. Paragnostic Apostle 1// Swordsage 7
15. Jade Phoenix Mage 1// Wizard 4
16. Jade Phoenix Mage 2// Swordsage 8
17. Jade Phoenix Mage 3// Swordsage 9
18. Jade Phoenix Mage 4// Swordsage 10
19. Jade Phoenix Mage 5// Swordsage 11
20. Jade Phoenix Mage 6// Wizard 5

Get Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel for 4,000 gp instead of spending a feat on it. Take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd level and invest every skill point you get from that point on into it for the greatest return, and dump as much as possible into Spellcraft. This allows you to take ten on your Incantatrix abilities and always succeed at persisting your highest level buffs. You can use cooperative metamagic on your own spells outside of combat because the action economy system only exists during initiative.

Make your item familiar a ring or similar so you can wear a glove or gauntlet over it, opponents will never have line of sight/effect to it and can never target it directly. An item familiar is an intelligent item, which is regarded as a construct. Constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining, and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas.

If you want to get Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar, there are a few ways you can do it. Maybe get a Blink Dog (CW) and a Wand of Benign Transposition, I've actually done this (was a Sorcerer using spell points and just knew the spell) and there are very few obstacles that this cannot get your entire party past. Another option is to get an outsider type familiar, doesn't matter what, and Persistent Draconic Polymorph it into something awesome like an Arrow Demon (MM3), and Persistent Bite of the Weretiger it as well. Note that outsiders are automatically proficient with all martial weapons, even if it's something like a Hell Hound. If you do that give it two composite bows (Str +15) and put (Lesser Rod of Extended) Greater Magic Weapon on each for +3 starting out, and it uses your +12 BAB, which allows it to make six shots/round for 1d8+18 each, averaging 135 damage/round without Haste.

You have all those Fighter levels for the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape. Persistent Draconic Polymorph yourself into a War Troll (MM3), and use Persistent Bite of the Weretiger or Werebear. Get the feat Knock-Back in RoS (qualify with Permanency Enlarge Person, you can dismiss it and keep the feat but only use it when large+), and if you're flying above an opponent you can Dungeoncrash them against the ground with every attack. You can also cast Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PH2) and add Dungeoncrasher damage to its effect if it knocks them into a solid obstacle, again the ground is suitable. Your weapon of choice should be a Persistent Fell Drain Thunderlance with (Lesser Rod of Extended) Greater Magic Weapon. You should also use Persistent and Fell Drain with Death Armor and Fire Shield (twice, hot and cold) on yourself every day.

I could go on, but you should have a pretty good idea of what to do by now.

[Urpriest]

As a Gish, your familiar will have decent BAB and hp, so it's actually worthwhile as a combatant. As such, you might want to consider familiars that work well for that sort of thing. I've heard good things about the Winter Wolf, though that may be a bit low level for you at present. Dragon Familiar might be tempting.

[herrhauptmann]

Lots of stuff.

Oohkay. A lot of info, I'll try to respond. First: No fractional bab. :(
Second, we start at level 12, and I don't know how long the game will last (most of pbps that I join die with 3 fights). So I need to limit tricks/combos to things that can be done at 12.

I know I can't get 2 levels of casting at once, paragon was originally put there when I thought spellsword would be 5/10 casting. When it changed, I didn't bother moving paragon2.

You're right on not making it into spellsword. I'd been thinking of 4 levels of full bab on one side, then Wiz3/Spellsword1, since regardless of my casting levels, I'd have sufficient bab. Missed that human only has 2/3 bab.

I don't think I'll be able to take Paragnostic. The party is all gishes, and the campaign has an Inquisition against arcane casters. The DM is allowing one divine character, and I think Paragnostic might be too divine for his tastes.

I asked about Item Familiar (mostly for the XP boost), and the DM said if we start using it like you describe, we'll face enemies that do the same. Obviously my charop needs work, and my play skills need more still. I won't survive a game like that for very long.
More later, but gotta go for now.
Edit.
Incantatrix3? Only version of the class I've got right now is on dndtools (MoF version) which gives me see ethereal at 3. Has the class been updated for Complete Arcane, or is See Ethereal that awesome of a stopping point?

Updating build

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Edit.
Incantatrix3? Only version of the class I've got right now is on dndtools (MoF version) which gives me see ethereal at 3. Has the class been updated for Complete Arcane, or is See Ethereal that awesome of a stopping point?

Updating build

The version in Player's Guide to Faerun gives you two abilities at the 2nd and 3rd level, Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect. Each are usable 3+Int/day.

Cooperative Metamagic allows you to apply a metamagic feat you know to a spell cast by an ally (or yourself if not in combat) by making a spellcraft check, without increasing the spell's level. This allows you to put Persistent Spell on your buffs for basically free, as long as your Spellcraft check is high enough. That's what Item Familiar is for.

Metamagic Effect does basically the same thing, but you first cast a noninstantaneous spell, then apply the metamagic feat to it by making a spellcraft check. So cast one of your buffs, and then add persistent spell to it so its duration is 24 hours.

Both of those have spellcraft DCs of 18 + three times the modified spell level as though the metamagic feat were applied normally. So to add Persistent Spell to a 6th level spell, it would be DC 54. Assuming 15 ranks, +15 for item familiar, +7 Int, +2 synergy, +2 masterwork tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork), and probably +3 Skill Focus, you can take ten and succeed on this check. It's a lot easier if you can put a custom Skill bonus (competence) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) on your Item Familiar, which means you wouldn't need Skill Focus or a masterwork tool or as high an Int score.

If it's an inquisition against arcane casters, you won't need to worry about your opponents (ab)using an Item Familiar to make spellcraft checks for Incantatrix. Explain to him that the 10% xp bonus is mostly for the costs of upgrading that item yourself, and it's not even the best feat for a discounted powerful magical item (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4).

Paragnostic Apostle is neither arcane nor divine, it's scholarly. I wouldn't consider it any more divine-themed than Loremaster, despite the fact that it offers certain abilities designed to make it appeal to divine casters. Just one level for Mind Over Matter, which requires Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering, is not something that should be considered divine-themed at all.

Be sure to get a Ring of Arcane Might (CM) to give your spells an extra +4 to the dispel DC. Consider taking the feat Extraordinary Spell Aim (CV), which will allow you to have a Persistent Antimagic Field up which excludes you and your entire party from its effect. There are tons of spells that you can apply Persistent Spell to:
Swift Expeditious Retreat, Shield, Swift Fly, Wraithstrike, Greater Invisibility, Ray Deflection, (Fell Drain) Death Armor, (Fell Drain) Fire Shield (twice), (Fell Drain) Thunderlance, Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon), Bite of the Werecreature (five spells 3rd-7th level), Dragonsight, (Extraordinary Spell Aim) Antimagic Field, Arcane Spellsurge, etc.
There are also tons of hour/level spells that last all day Extended at 12th:
Greater Magic Weapon, (Greater) Luminous Armor (BoED), Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire in CM, etc.
You've also got 24-hour spells:
Greater/Superior Resistance, Mind Blank, Energy Immunity, the Primal X line of spells in Dragon Magic, etc.

The reason Gish characters are good is because of their buffs, what few offensive spells you use should be to crowd control opponents so your party can focus fire down the encounter only a few at a time while suffering minimal damage. The party shouldn't have to use more than two or three such spells collectively in a given encounter, so each character is looking at maybe three or four of those prepared per day. All the rest should include a few utility/situational spells and the remainder is buffs. If you're persisting all your buffs, you only have to cast each once, so you can use all the rest of your spells for those situational spells and crowd controls.