882: Before we left the city, you...

[nogall]

... told our army to march here, and they'll be arriving any minute now.

or?

[Gift Jeraff]

Eh, an army of mooks seems rather useless in a cramped dungeon filled with protagonists, major villains not allied with Tarquin, a paranoid family of illusionists, traps, an artifact guarding a portal to a supermonster, and traps. Surely Tarquin is savvy enough to know this.

As discussed in the main discussion thread, I think it's referring to either
-learning about Haley's father and uncle.
-contacting the rest of his adventuring party to get ready to join them.

[Peelee]

I'm seconding the adventuring party angle. We've seen how tough Xykon had it for Lirian's Gate, Dorukan's Gate, and especially Soon's Gate; I see no reason he should have a cakewalk at Girard's Gate, even with it being functionally undefended. Only way I can imagine that is if two parties with multiple mages are there. And even then...

[Mike Havran]

Girard's epic protections are still there, and they should provide a big enough challenge.

I think Tarquin was referring to Ian. He captured him, or at least knows about him, and now is going to use it against the protagonists when opportunity arises.

[Hawk7915]

I immediately thought it was "contacted the rest of the adventuring party". Tarquin, as much as he loves drama, would also want the option of completely strong-arming both Nale and and the Order with four very high level, potentially epic level, allies turning the table. Plus if he knows everything Nale knows he'd probably want his own arcane caster instead of the dark elf to do rituals. And it makes sense to have them on alert to send a rescue party incase 1/3 of their team is killed by Girard's traps and tricks.

[nogall]

Eh, an army of mooks seems rather useless in a cramped dungeon filled with protagonists, major villains not allied with Tarquin, a paranoid family of illusionists, traps, an artifact guarding a portal to a supermonster, and traps. Surely Tarquin is savvy enough to know this.

As discussed in the main discussion thread, I think it's referring to either
-learning about Haley's father and uncle.
-contacting the rest of his adventuring party to get ready to join them.

Oh yes, calling the adventuring party makes sense...

[Peelee]

Girard's epic protections are still there, and they should provide a big enough challenge.

Can you point any out to me? Thus far all we've seen have been mundane traps that are somewhat-easily spotted, and the (seemingly permanently) warded door. The door was impressive, yes, and was somewhat challenging to the Order, but it would have done little to impede Xykon.

[Neoriceisgood]

... Had to take a potty break? :smallredface:

[Mike Havran]

Can you point any out to me? Thus far all we've seen have been mundane traps that are somewhat-easily spotted, and the (seemingly permanently) warded door. The door was impressive, yes, and was somewhat challenging to the Order, but it would have done little to impede Xykon.

No, I can't, because we haven't seen any of them yet. But if Girard was capable of leaving a permanent invisible deathtrap in the random spot in the desert, he also warded the very thing he was guarding.

[Agnostik]

... Had to take a potty break? :smallredface:
Tsk, beat me to it.

This is important, actually. That way Tarquin won't be distracted from the epic showdown by calls of nature.

[Bulldog Psion]

... sent a message to Miron Shewdanker and told him to come to Windy Canyon with the rest of the party. We can rule the world, not just one continent, if we can grab this Gate. Hurry, man!

[Water_Bear]

...added another dozen feats to your sheet. :smalltongue:

As much as I do like Tarquin, it gets a bit silly when you think of how many different specialized things he can do now. Not even mentioning the skill bonuses he's got to have rolling around, just on Knowledges alone.

[Kish]

... sent a message to Miron Shewdanker and told him to come to Windy Canyon with the rest of the party. We can rule the world, not just one continent, if we can grab this Gate. Hurry, man!
We can hope.

[FlawedParadigm]

Remembered to order a present in time for Mother's Day delivery!

[Peelee]

No, I can't, because we haven't seen any of them yet. But if Girard was capable of leaving a permanent invisible deathtrap in the random spot in the desert, he also warded the very thing he was guarding.

I'll give you that he was capabale, yes, and there is the possibility he still has something up and running. Though speaking only for myself, the fact that finding it was supposed to be nigh-impossible, and if found would be an incredibly tough nut to crack, what with the whole big family getting in on the illusions, making the already maze-like ziggurat an impressively difficult dungeon, makes it seem as if the impressively-warded door was supposed to be the icing on the cake. With the cake having disintegrated, leaving only the sugary coating intact.

[ScubaGoomba]

Something along the lines of him already having the gate back in the city and putting it into safe keeping.

[Carl]

I'll give you that he was capabale, yes, and there is the possibility he still has something up and running. Though speaking only for myself, the fact that finding it was supposed to be nigh-impossible, and if found would be an incredibly tough nut to crack, what with the whole big family getting in on the illusions, making the already maze-like ziggurat an impressively difficult dungeon, makes it seem as if the impressively-warded door was supposed to be the icing on the cake. With the cake having disintegrated, leaving only the sugary coating intact.

Your missing the point. It would be trivial for him to have set up a whole slew of really nasty completely permanent spells given he was epic level. It's not a question of weather they're there or not. They are, we probably just haven't seen them yet. The family where just the first line of defence.

Now what he's got set up is another question.

y pet theory is the whole ziggurrat is a hugely complex illusion that has a fake gate in it. You find that, work out it's a fake and then spend forever scouring the desert for the real thing, maybe even blow up the ziggurat to check it ins't in a wall and never find it because even blown up the spell covers it.

You don't hide something in the last place someone will look, you hide it where no one will ever look.

[Peelee]

It's not a question of weather they're there or not. They are, we probably just haven't seen them yet.

This is where we disagree, it would seem. It very much is a question of whether they're there or not. And I think more along the lines of "not."

[Carl]

This is where we disagree, it would seem. It very much is a question of whether they're there or not. And I think more along the lines of "not."

Look he's epic level. If he cast any serious spells they'll be permanent ones. So unless he never personally did anything to defend the gate they're there. Simple as that.

You whole premise relies on the idea he sat back and let the family do everything from day 1, (i.e before he had a hundred family members to do all the work).

[TRH]

y pet theory is the whole ziggurrat is a hugely complex illusion that has a fake gate in it. You find that, work out it's a fake and then spend forever scouring the desert for the real thing, maybe even blow up the ziggurat to check it ins't in a wall and never find it because even blown up the spell covers it.

You don't hide something in the last place someone will look, you hide it where no one will ever look.

That makes sense in and of itself, but come on; we've spent 30+ strips in this pyramid already, and the arc itself is really starting to drag. You can't honestly say you want there to be yet another fake-out to make this take even longer. Besides, unless Girard lied to Serini too, then that would only guarantee an easy victory for Xykon since he would be the only one with the actual location of the Gate; no living person would be there to stop him, and whatever protections the Gate has won't hold him forever. Your theory would basically be handing the win to Team Evil and invalidate Durkon's death in a very irritating way.

[Kish]

Look he's epic level. If he cast any serious spells they'll be permanent ones.
That feature of being epic level seems to have been left out of my copy of the Epic Level Handbook.

[137beth]

That feature of being epic level seems to have been left out of my copy of the Epic Level Handbook.

It isn't in mine either. I think he still have some traps there, but not enough to stop Xykon. Remember, epic is not the same thing as level 10000. The resources available to a party of levels 21-30 is very different from those available to higher level parties.
More to the point, Tarquin is still doing something significant. And that can't involve "getting control of the snarl," since we know (even if he doesn't know) that that is impossible. It might not be calling his whole party, but it is something.

[Raineh Daze]

Additionally, a point against any uber-powerful permanent illusions on Girard's part is that we know he multiclassed at least once (he took a level of Ranger), so he might not even have that much epic magic, if any.

[Peelee]

Look he's epic level. If he cast any serious spells they'll be permanent ones. So unless he never personally did anything to defend the gate they're there. Simple as that.

You whole premise relies on the idea he sat back and let the family do everything from day 1, (i.e before he had a hundred family members to do all the work).

No, my premise relies on the idea that he clearly died quite some time ago, was recruiting family members to help cast spells to have it be more guarded and more efficient, and that the Permanency spell has a very small list of spells it works on. Some spells have permanent duration, yes, but being Epic level does not make that automatically happen to spells that previously did not have such a feature. Also, the Draketooth family are sorcerers, which means they have a small number of spells known. This can be increased with epic feats, but still does not get him a huge amount of spells by himself.

Your premise relies on "Girard was Epic, so things." The Giant has freely proclaimed he doesn't care for minute-to-minute rules accuracy, but you seem to be ignoring the rules of the D&D system as a whole, and it is still a D&D-based world. Sorcerers are unlikely to suddenly have a spell list as big as a Wizard, and spells probably won't become infinitely-lasting just because a Sorcerer reached level 21.

[Bravo]

...told the army to march here?

...called your old adventuring party and told them to converge on Windy Canyon?

...recaptured your son Elan's girlfriend's father to use as a hostage and force Elan to let us have the Gate?

...went to your secret stash of magical items and brought THAT item that'll turn things on their head later?

...stealthily switched Nale's rod with a bogus copy, so that when he inevitably betrays us it will backfire?
(actually, this one doesn't count because then NOT everyone in the room already knows)

[137beth]

No, my premise relies on the idea that he clearly died quite some time ago, was recruiting family members to help cast spells to have it be more guarded and more efficient, and that the Permanency spell has a very small list of spells it works on. Some spells have permanent duration, yes, but being Epic level does not make that automatically happen to spells that previously did not have such a feature. Also, the Draketooth family are sorcerers, which means they have a small number of spells known. This can be increased with epic feats, but still does not get him a huge amount of spells by himself.
Nitpick correction: I've played quite high, and at levels 30+, a vast majority of power comes from exponentially increasing WBL. Magic item cost increases much more slowly than WBL, so your power increases really fast. Of course, that basically means that the only other permanent-duration stuff he'd get would be from magic items, which only have nonepic spells (which are primarily not permanent), and from epic spells. Given that he was probably not much over level 30, and that permanency on epic spells is expensive, he likely could not have created a particularly powerful epic ward.

[Carl]

@Kish Try here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm).

There's no reason to believe he wouldn't have researched a suitable spell and cast it.

@TRH: The chances of this book ending with everything done at the gate are remote, we'd have to go massively over the page count of War & XP's or have a super rushed, (and thus probably unsatisfying), conclusion.

[Peelee]

@Kish Try here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm).

There's no reason to believe he wouldn't have researched a suitable spell and cast it.

Let's read that link, shall we?


The final Spellcraft DC is the most significant gauge of the epic spell’s power. A spellcaster attempts to cast an epic spell by making a Spellcraft check against the epic spell’s Spellcraft DC. Thus, a spellcaster knows immediately, based on his or her own Spellcraft bonus, what epic spells are within his or her capability to cast, which are risky, and which are beyond him or her. Epic casters don’t commit time and money to develop epic spells until they are powerful enough to cast them.


{table]Factor|Spellcraft DC Modifier
Permanent duration|x5[/table]

Hey, look at that, a massive Spellcraft check (and that's without any other modifiers). Just because you say "Epic" a lot doesn't mean he can do anything you want him to.

[Mike Havran]

Just because you say "Epic" a lot doesn't mean he can do anything you want him to.

Actually...this is how Epic spells seem to work here.
Cloister: Overkill protection of everything in a large area against almost all forms of intrusion, scrying and stuff, that lasts weeks.
Epic Teleport: teleports an entire fleet that weighs heaven knows how much.
Familicide: no comment.

If there was a single part of rules to which the Giant pays little heed, it would be Epic spell creation.

[Peelee]

Actually...this is how Epic spells seem to work here.
Cloister: Overkill protection of everything in a large area against almost all forms of intrusion, scrying and stuff, that lasts weeks.
Epic Teleport: teleports an entire fleet that weighs heaven knows how much.
Familicide: no comment.

If there was a single part of rules to which the Giant pays little heed, it would be Epic spell creation.

That's a pretty good point, actually. However, I was more addressing the comment of "There's no reason to believe he wouldn't have researched a suitable spell and cast it," so I care less about the actual mechanics behind it than supplying a reason to doubt that Girard would cast such a spell. Since you made a pretty decent point, I'll go ahead and bolster my argument with a quote from The Giant that seems pretty tenable for this specific situation as well.


Because there's absolutely no narrative purpose for it other than to satisfy people who want the characters to more accurately reflect common D&D player strategies, and I am actively seeking to disappoint such people so they stop expecting that. Basically, the fact that "every decent player" does something has become a reason for me to NOT do it now, just to try to get people to stop asking.

[Mike Havran]

Based on how the first three gates were guarded (each had some "special" form of defense that made the villains's life difficult) I deduce we can look forward to something similar here. And since Girard was an Epic illusionist, his line of unique defense would probably lie in this area.


Besides, unless Girard lied to Serini too, then that would only guarantee an easy victory for Xykon since he would be the only one with the actual location of the Gate; no living person would be there to stop him, and whatever protections the Gate has won't hold him forever

I would guess that he indeed lied to her. Why should he trust anybody outside his family? Besides, it would make another easy and nice line of defense: the assaulter would need to track down the Epic rogue, then beat the info out of her, then go to the place only to find he was busted again :smallamused: It could generate weeks of additional time for the defenders to shore up the fortifications, or to prepare some assault.

[Peelee]

Based on how the first three gates were guarded (each had some "special" form of defense that made the villains's life difficult) I deduce we can look forward to something similar here. And since Girard was an Epic illusionist, his line of unique defense would probably lie in this area.

I have no problem with that belief. In fact, I earlier stated on the possibility of one of Girard's defenses still being the big stopper:



It's not a question of weather they're there or not. They are, we probably just haven't seen them yet.

This is where we disagree, it would seem. It very much is a question of whether they're there or not. And I think more along the lines of "not."

My problem was with Carl stating that this is the only possible outcome, that obviously it is the answer, and that no other possibility can even be conceived.

He asked for any reason to not believe that to be the case, and I provided.

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, here's what I remember from prior discussions:
Cloister was judged to be 90+, possibly more depending on what drawbacks it might have we didn't know about. I know the idea that a significant portion of the DC was accounted for based on the idea that you needed a very specific focus to cast the spell, otherwise we were looking well into the triple digits.

Familicide was something ridiculous. I think the lowest number I remember seeing that had any real argument supporting it was 220 something. Of course Haerta could have built any number of extra costs into it we never knew about. So long as she was the one casting the spell "for" V, then she paid them. Of course when this was all originally discussed, it was long before the Draketooth connection had been made, so obviously now we see the spell needed to be cast for plot purposes. That in mind, Rich probably didn't pay any attention to the DC whatsoever. Depending on a game world's specific origin of their races (say, for example, one race are all the descendants of one specific pairing, either entity of which might still be living) it's possible that spell could render an entire race/species extinct in some settings. A 500+ DC would not be unreasonable, especially as there either appears to be no save or spell resistance involved, or there were a lot of really terrible rolls around the world that day.

Basically, I wouldn't even bother. Any player who could ever cast that while understanding the full ramifications of it is probably ready to be retired anyhow. Either they're too powerful to challenge significantly, or the act itself would require the death of the caster (could even be how Haerta died), or would be so significant that it would raise the caster to be that world's God of Slaughter or something. Villains wouldn't be much if any better; if they can cast a spell that powerful, they'd probably be the last challenge you could ever realistically throw at that party.

Epic Teleport: I never read into that thread's discussion, but looking at the Transport Seed, it must have been pretty ludicrous; DC 27 covers 1,000 lbs., +2 DC for every additional 50. We must have seen at least 20K even assuming those were extra light ships. That's at least +760 DC right there. Again, massive mitigating factors would be needed to explain that one. Even transporting 100 people or so at ~150 pounds each would be 580 DC extra, without the ships. Epic Teleport indeed.

[Kish]

Actually...this is how Epic spells seem to work here.
Epic casters immediately replace all their nonepic spells with epic versions?

That is very much not the way it works here. It wasn't until the very end of War and XPs that Xykon cast his very first on-panel epic spell. The implied statement "All Girard's serious spells were epic spells" manages to be worse than the explicit statement that all Girard's serious spells had permanent duration.

[FlawedParadigm]

Actually, I belatedly realise that given that the souls of each of those casters were the playthings of the fiends, the mitigating factor to get the DCs down to semi-sane levels might have been the sale of their souls and/or their immediate death. I wonder how much that lowers a DC by.

[Mike Havran]

Epic casters immediately replace all their nonepic spells with epic versions?

That is very much not the way it works here. It wasn't until the very end of War and XPs that Xykon cast his very first on-panel epic spell. The implied statement "All Girard's serious spells were epic spells" manages to be worse than the explicit statement that all Girard's serious spells had permanent duration.

I didn't imply such statements and I don't know where you got the idea that I did. I say that Girard has Epic spells and such spells don't tend to follow the standard rules here. If Girard casted permanent Epic X spell on the Gate, nobody should care that Epic X is non-permanent in the core and giving it permanency would bump its DC way too high.

[Fish]

I think we have a pretty good case that the anti-scrying magic (viz, Durkon's failed Find Tha Path and months of Zz'dtri trying to locate the gate) was likely Girard. Can any lesser caster, alone or in concert, have blocked scrying for weeks after their own death?

[Kish]

Excuse me. I meant Carl's implied statement--as I said that there's no rule that epic-level characters automatically have all their spells be permanent and he responded by linking to the rules on epic spells.

[F.Harr]

I think, whatever it is, it will be in character and surprising and remarkably well-thought out.

Dumm, Dumm DUMMM!

[Eldhusgaur]

882 title says its a boy, so its the third brother, or their younger brother.

[Domino Quartz]

882 title says its a boy, so its the third brother, or their younger brother.

I'm pretty sure it's referring to the fact that Durkon is male and the idea that he's Malack's "baby."

[glissle]

I would guess that he indeed lied to her. Why should he trust anybody outside his family? Besides, it would make another easy and nice line of defense: the assaulter would need to track down the Epic rogue, then beat the info out of her, then go to the place only to find he was busted again :smallamused: It could generate weeks of additional time for the defenders to shore up the fortifications, or to prepare some assault.
Also, if his family knew where the gate really was, then he could have been telling her the truth in an indirect sense (telling her where to find the people who knew the info) while lying to her in a literal sense.


Regarding permanent magical defenses, why assume that the non-illusion spell traps on the door were the only such traps protecting the gate? The mistake (in my opinion) of de-trapping the door may or may not have directly made the gate more vulnerable, since I find it quite plausible that the door was a red herring in the first place.


There could be epic permanent illusions (possibly all created via different castings of the same spell) as well as more non-epic spell traps. Girard could have added plenty of mitigating factors to his spell, since he didn't need to cast it in combat. In particular, he could have waited until he had spell-casting descendants before researching a permanent version of his spell, allowing him to create a cooperative ritual.

I think he would have done something a little more tricky than hiding the gate, though, such as illusions that disoriented anyone trying to search for it methodically. Though I suppose it would be hard to justify that as a non-mind-affecting figment or glamer, since it sounds more like a phantasm or pattern.

[theinsulabot]

you know, not that I am a big understander of DnD and all but a bit later I note on that table a way to lower spell DC and it includes a ritual using several other casters. there were dozens of draketooths. if draketooth wanted one final, uber permanent spell what would be stopping him from crafting it then having 20 or 30 draketooths add a 5th level slot or whatever their highest was?

basically even from that table it seems to me like if draketooth wanted a trump card....and he really, really seems like the kind of fellow to want a trump card, he had the number of casters to do it.

[Kish]

I think there is a good chance Girard did cast some manner of epic spell that's still around (beyond the anti-scrying spell that we've already seen).

[Koo Rehtorb]

Either something to do with Ian, or he called for backup from the rest of his adventuring party.

[137beth]

I think there is a good chance Girard did cast some manner of epic spell that's still around (beyond the anti-scrying spell that we've already seen).

I think almost everyone on this thread does, we just seem to have a disagreement about whether the few people who disagree are obviously absurdly wrong and we shouldn't give them any credit whatsoever.

I am on the side of "we are not entirely sure what is going to happen." You appear to be as well.

[Bravo]

At this point, in a world where spells like "summon plot exposition" are actual spells, there's no way of knowing what Girard was capable of. As always, the Giant's characters will travel at the speed of plot, and no faster. If the Giant decides that it would make for a better story for several of Girard's illusions to still be in place, then that's what will happen. If he decides that most of the intrigue of this dungeon crawl should come from the Linear Guild, then that's what will happen.

Of course, it's fun to discuss whether the epic rules make certain things plausible, but after two pages of "could Girard cast loads of permanent spells", I think that well is dry.

[Procyonpi]

Clearly, the correct answer is:
Had your Clyde the Conjurer's (tm) Magic Puffs Cereal (tm)

[Rorrik]

...packed a tube of anti-lich cream. (Did Elan tell him about Xykon? Probably not, worth it for the pun though.)

Really, though, I think the conversation hints that it's something a little more conspicuously avoided, and so hinted at more earlier in the strip. Maybe something to do with his Father of the Year Plaque? Something against Malack? Or Elan?

[Mike Havran]

I think the fact that Tarquin discussed the matter openly with Kilkil serves as a point against theory about gathering his old allies. Kilkil is an useful little creature that helps keeping the Blood machinery running, but he doesn't belong to the inner circle. There's no reason why he should know about the ploy, and discussing contact with enemy advisors with him would give it away.

Whatever they did, most likely it concerned just the matters of the Empire of Blood.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think the fact that Tarquin discussed the matter openly with Kilkil serves as a point against theory about gathering his old allies. Kilkil is an useful little creature that helps keeping the Blood machinery running, but he doesn't belong to the inner circle. There's no reason why he should know about the ploy, and discussing contact with enemy advisors with him would give it away.

Whatever they did, most likely it concerned just the matters of the Empire of Blood.

I was about to post something like this, as well as the implication that Nale and Zz'dtri know about whatever it is. Revealing such a potential trump card to Nale & co. seems like a bad idea.

Though I do think he has the rest of his party on standby, my guess is that would be something he told Malack to do in private or via codewords.

[ellindsey]

...ordered your eight squadrons of hippiogriffs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0814.html) to assemble and fly to the Windy Canyon for backup.

[Starwaster]

...dug up Thog and executed him by drowning him in lemon pudding.

[snikrept]

"...contacted the other four members of your old party" was my first thought as well.

Probably because I'm desperately wanting to see them in action against Xykon !

[Copperdragon]

@Kish Try here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm).

There's no reason to believe he wouldn't have researched a suitable spell and cast it.

Have you read those rules? Making a spell permanent increases the entire DC by a factor of five. Yes, you can make epic spells permanent but the spell you're starting with is not going to be that impressive.
Even if you take the very basic seed you need for Illusions (14) and make it cover all senses you reach the low 20s. This is a very basic illusion and with the permanent-application we're looking at a DC of 100+.

There's no way he creates a "very fancy super-illusion" as his signature spell with a base DC of 30 or 40 (increasing the area it works in, has some fancy triggers, survives getting struck by a character (yes, the basic illusion dissolves if you hit it), etc) that has a DC of 150 to 200 (or much more). That's not very realistic to assume (but within the realm of the story we see here possible).
It is even less realistic to assume that all his epic illusions were permanent.

You can use the conceal seed to create some sort of super-invisibility for the gate that would be permanent with a DC of 100+. This would even be useful as it's a really good invisibility (in contrast to having a relatively basic illusion).
So if there's any permanent illusory effect it might just be some invisibilities (which you can use to set up some nasty/good misdirections, but in itself, invisibility is nothing too fancy for adventurers to deal with - no matter what level the spell is, such effects are stuff level 1 parties can (and do) deal with).

[Mantine]

I don't really understand Peevee's or others stances on this.

We've already seen Girard laying a dormant perfectly functional spell in the middle of the desert, there's not reason he wouldn't have done the same (and epic) to protect his gate. Simple as that.

The whole DC debate seems moot, considering that nearly all homebrew epic spells we've seen so far safely ignored those circumstances.

[Rorrik]

After seeing this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) again, the "arranged for your armies to be in signaling range" theory doesn't seem to far fetched. In fact, I'm sure he has an army nearby ready to seize the gate once they've dealt with the order.

I don't think that's what they're referring to, though, since we already know that. Still, an army getting involved seems almost inevitable with Xykon soon to arrive.

[Olinser]

On a related note - anybody know why the other thread discussing this topic was locked 2 days ago after the original post?

[FlawedParadigm]

On a related note - anybody know why the other thread discussing this topic was locked 2 days ago after the original post?

...Because it was a duplicate?

[Carl]

Copperdraon: Other's have already pointed out how this doesn't jibe with other examples of powerful magic. Cloister, Darth V's Epic Teleport, Famllicide, hell that trap in the desert could well have been an example of exactly what i'm talking about, Any and all of those have ridiculous DC's, (See Flawed Paradgrims post on the matter).

And, (as someone else pointed out), even if he only waited long enough to gather his siblings and cousins together he could reasonably have cast a fairly decent ritual spell. And that's assuming he had it researched. If he took his time researching it as you'd expect he could have had a family in the several tens with most of them being at least mid level spell slots. If he cast a basic version then and maybe waited till shortly before his death then cast a much more powerful one with his now even larger and more potent family he could even within the rules of Epic Spells have pulled off almost anything, never mind the obviously lax OoTS ones.

[Olinser]

...Because it was a duplicate?

It was posted 2 hours before this one.

[Olinser]

Copperdraon: Other's have already pointed out how this doesn't jibe with other examples of powerful magic. Cloister, Darth V's Epic Teleport, Famllicide, hell that trap in the desert could well have been an example of exactly what i'm talking about, Any and all of those have ridiculous DC's, (See Flawed Paradgrims post on the matter).

And, (as someone else pointed out), even if he only waited long enough to gather his siblings and cousins together he could reasonably have cast a fairly decent ritual spell. And that's assuming he had it researched. If he took his time researching it as you'd expect he could have had a family in the several tens with most of them being at least mid level spell slots. If he cast a basic version then and maybe waited till shortly before his death then cast a much more powerful one with his now even larger and more potent family he could even within the rules of Epic Spells have pulled off almost anything, never mind the obviously lax OoTS ones.

Keep in mind as well that said spell doesn't have to be PERMANENT.

With a huge clan of illusionists at the ready, it is completely reasonable that he created an item (like Dorukan's Cloister headband) that would allow somebody (or a group of somebodies) to renew the spell periodically, and they pass said item down to the Clan Head, presumably the most powerful caster. With a long enough duration the spell could still be active.

Cloister had a 1 week per caster level duration - make Girard's a 1 month per caster level duration and you're looking at renewing it once a year or less.

[FlawedParadigm]

It was posted 2 hours before this one.

Yes, and the mods closed it because it was the one with no replies. Less hassle than merging them.

[Shred-Bot]

"Before we left the city, you FORGOT TO WATER THE EFFING PLANTS, Tarquin! Do you think they just grow on their own? WE LIVE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BLOODY DESERT! You even swapped cleaning up the Empress's dinner with Malack... we moved the Spiked Chore Wheel of Doom three days early for you! Do you have any idea how hard it is to get orchids to grow in sand!? Now we'll have to hire a druid to bring them back... which we'll have to import from the Elven Lands because DRUIDS DON'T LIVE IN THE FREAKING DESERT!" *pant pant* "...thanks for unparalyzing me Malack."

[Heksefatter]

...stole my son's god and made preparations for making him our new puppet ruler.

[Olinser]

...stole my son's god and made preparations for making him our new puppet ruler.

I see what you did there.