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foolofsound
2013-03-30, 11:19 AM
I doubt many people have heard of the Thieves' World series, much less played it's d20 adaptation, but I'd like to discuss one of the game's main changes to the d20 system: its spellcasting. An overview:

First, spells/day and preparing spells are out the window. Instead, all casters unlock new spell levels at the same level a sorcerer does. Casters get 2-3 Known spells per spell level (with all level 0 spells automatically known), which they can cast quickly, and 3-4 Familiar spells per level, which are cast more slowly. They may also cast Unknown spells, provided they have a scroll or spellbook to read from, though this is even slower.

Each spellcasting class has a base Spellcasting and Ritualcasting modifier. On a full caster this has 1/1 growth in one modifier and 1/2 growth in the other, or 3/4 growth in both. On a partial caster, this has a 1/2 or 3/4s growth in only one modifier. This modifier is added to the caster's primary stat bonus, and may be further modified with special magic items called foci, which give a +1-10 bonus to one of the modifiers, and cost the sames as a magic weapon of the same total bonus. This total is the caster's total Spellcasting or Ritualcasting modifier.

Let's discuss regular spellcasting first: when a caster wishes to cast a spell, he adds 1 to the spells level (modified by metamagic), then multiplies by 10 (for a total of 10-100). This is the Mana Threshold. The caster then rolls 1d20+Spellcasting modifier, and compares the result to the Mana Threshold. If the result equals or exceeds the threshold, the spell is cast at the end of the spells casting time. If the total is lower than the the Mana Threshold, the caster may either abandon the spell, or retain the result, wait another full casting time, then roll again, adding the totals, until the spell is cast. In either case, the caster takes the spells level in nonlethal damage after every cast (nonlethal damage cannot be healed through magic in Thieves' World, and magical healing instead converts lethal damage to nonlethal).

On a natural 1-5 on the spellcasting roll, no mana is added to the total, and the total is instead decreased by the unmodified d20 roll (so 1-5). If this would bring the mana total below 0, the spell backfires in some random but generally only mildly harmful way. On a natural 19-20 on the spellcasting roll, the caster may immediately roll again and add the result to the total. Interrupting a spell successfully halves the current mana total, rounding down. If the spell is already at a mana total of 0, it backfires. Casters may choose to take bonuses to their spellcasting roll at the expense of increasing the failure range, or take penalties to the roll in order to decrease the failure range.

In general, this means that most spells have a casting time of about 2-3 rounds. However, this only applies for Known spells; Familiar spells requires additional an 'preparation time' of 1 standard action per spell level OR 1 full-round action per 2 spell levels, and Unknown spells require 2 full round actions per spell level. No mana is generated during this time, and successful interruptions during the prep time ruin the spell.

Ritual casting increases the casting time of the spells to 1 minute/roll or the spell's base casting time/roll, whichever is greater. In return, multiple casters may participate in the spell, and the spells duration is increased one stage along the following: rounds/level->minutes/level->10 minutes/level->hours/level->days/level. Spells with day/level durations are not increased. Spells with flat duration increase one stage as well.

Quicken spells works differently, allowing you to cast a limited number of spells per day as a swift action so long as you can achieve their Mana threshold in a single roll. Persistent Spell does not exist.

As a side note: Thieves' World has a much greater emphasis on fighting human enemies with class levels, rather than monsters. Fights are likely to take place in tight quarters, with lots of potential cover, and the setting both expands increases the importance of social and stealth skills.

Edit: A note on charged items: staves and wands add their spells the the caster's Known list so long as they are wielded. They cannot otherwise hold charges, and spells are cast exactly as they are normally.

Points for discussion:
1: Would the increased casting time and potential for backfire, along with an in-setting doctrine of targeting casters first reduce the power discrepancy between casters and non-casters? If so, how much? If not, why? Remember that mages, in general, are likely to have somewhat more casts per day than they would in base DnD, particularly if there is significant time between encounters.

2: Is ritual casting likely to be problematic, since it can dramatically extend the durations of buff spells? Remember that Thieves' World mostly takes place in an urban environment in which magic is distrusted, so flashy buffs are likely to get you into trouble, but less obvious ones are not an issue.

3: Are the increased casting times likely to lead to casters crafting or buying large numbers of scrolls in order to avoid the issue? Will they be able to do so in such numbers that it allows them to avoid casting times altogether?

foolofsound
2013-04-01, 09:40 AM
Bumped for visibility, in hopes of a response. I'd really just like to hear opinions on it, whether or not you've experience the system firsthand.

Callin
2013-04-01, 09:54 AM
I have the book. Never played it though. Did not understand the magic system at all. However some of the classes and PrC's look awesome.

Telonius
2013-04-01, 10:01 AM
It's been about forever since I've read those books. Just as a first thought, E6 seems like it would be a better fit for it. I don't recall Shadowspawn or Tempus doing anything much more than a 6th-level character would be capable of. Though to be completely honest I can't remember any particular instance of magic in the series, other than the one where .. the.. guy? .. was able to change the problems people had, exchanging one for another. Oh, and the painter who could get visions. Just been way too long.

Divine spellcasting might be kind of wonky, since Sanctuary is in the middle of a change in deities..? I'd expect there to be more things like Favored Souls.

illyrus
2013-04-01, 10:24 AM
1. Casters can still be batman, there are some more limitations on the prep required but they can still make reality dance to their whim. I imagine casters will probably feel a bit weaker from the 1-10 range with the 11+ range just having them play differently than a standard game.

2. Probably so, depends on how smart/metagamey the caster is. Though really buff spells themselves are pretty scary.

3. Probably, but at least it gives you something to sunder or otherwise target.

A lot more depends on your likely wizard PC. I've played the generic fireball wizard and this would greatly change how they went about things. I've also played wizards that rarely ever cast in battle to which these rules would probably boost the power of that type of PC a bit.

For example a summoner is going to be pretty interesting. He could ritual cast and have a squad of demons or whatever running around at his whim, for a few minutes and they can end up covering a lot of ground and killing quite a few things in that time. Heck he can just chill at the entrance to the structure and chain ritual cast summons all day long if I'm reading what you posted correctly.

Lapak
2013-04-01, 10:28 AM
It's been about forever since I've read those books. Just as a first thought, E6 seems like it would be a better fit for it. I don't recall Shadowspawn or Tempus doing anything much more than a 6th-level character would be capable of. Though to be completely honest I can't remember any particular instance of magic in the series, other than the one where .. the.. guy? .. was able to change the problems people had, exchanging one for another. Oh, and the painter who could get visions. Just been way too long.

Divine spellcasting might be kind of wonky, since Sanctuary is in the middle of a change in deities..? I'd expect there to be more things like Favored Souls.There was the story where the guy arranged for a curse to be placed on him so that anyone who killed him would suffer eternal torment. Which had a second instance of magic because - and I only remember this story vaguely - another magic-user who hated him arranged to somehow duplicate him and trick him into killing himself so he'd suffer his own curse.

foolofsound
2013-04-01, 10:59 AM
1. Casters can still be batman, there are some more limitations on the prep required but they can still make reality dance to their whim. I imagine casters will probably feel a bit weaker from the 1-10 range with the 11+ range just having them play differently than a standard game.

2. Probably so, depends on how smart/metagamey the caster is. Though really buff spells themselves are pretty scary.

3. Probably, but at least it gives you something to sunder or otherwise target.

A lot more depends on your likely wizard PC. I've played the generic fireball wizard and this would greatly change how they went about things. I've also played wizards that rarely ever cast in battle to which these rules would probably boost the power of that type of PC a bit.

For example a summoner is going to be pretty interesting. He could ritual cast and have a squad of demons or whatever running around at his whim, for a few minutes and they can end up covering a lot of ground and killing quite a few things in that time. Heck he can just chill at the entrance to the structure and chain ritual cast summons all day long if I'm reading what you posted correctly.

Casters can't really cast all day; they suffer some nonlethal damage on every cast. They still tend to get more casts per day, since they don't need 8 hours of rest in order to 'regain' spells, as it were, since they heal nonlethal damage at HD/hour regardless.

Rituals were really my biggest concern, since they allow a prepared caster to become even more powerful than they are in base DnD. It wouldn't be too hard to edit out rituals entirely, and just allow all casters to use the higher of their casting bonuses in place of their normal spellcasting bonus.

It also wouldn't be hard to deal with the scrolls issue by having them act merely as a copy of the spell in question, allowing the caster to use the spell using Unknown casting times. Considering they got rid of charged wands and staves for Thieves' World, I'm surprised they didn't edit scrolls as well.

What I'm seeing is, barring the duration extension of rituals and bypassing casting times with scrolls, casters become somewhat stronger given time to set up before a battle, at the expense of being dramatically weaker (and reliant of other party members for protection) in actual fights. Considering that Thieves' World has better non-caster classes in general, I think that the system shouldn't be too unmanageable, assuming I remove scrolls and ritual casting.



Divine spellcasting might be kind of wonky, since Sanctuary is in the middle of a change in deities..? I'd expect there to be more things like Favored Souls.
Depends on the era you're playing in. Outside of the very early and very late Rankan eras, most of the gods are active in the world. Thieves' World has a favored soul/paladin-esque class called Godsworn. They have up to 6th level Cleric casting, full BaB, and Wisdom-based bonuses to attack rolls, AC, and saves. They're actually pretty good.

Edit: For reference, campaign would be starting at 3rd, capping out around 15th.

illyrus
2013-04-01, 12:10 PM
Seems reasonable to me. I might have spells in scroll form act as known or favored spells to give them some bonus over not using them at all (unless I'm misunderstanding how unknown spells work)

How do things like fast healing and temp hp interact with nonlethal damage btw?

foolofsound
2013-04-01, 12:41 PM
Seems reasonable to me. I might have spells in scroll form act as known or favored spells to give them some bonus over not using them at all (unless I'm misunderstanding how unknown spells work)

How do things like fast healing and temp hp interact with nonlethal damage btw?

Well, you go unconscious when your nonlethal damage exceeds your HP total, so I assume temporary HP increases your nonlethal threshold as well.

Fast Healing can't heal nonlethal damage, as far as I'm aware.

Not a bad idea for the scrolls, too.