Beyond the rift: A bent theory

[Illsbane]

We all know the story that the Order of the Scribble handed down to the Sapphire Guard and the Draketooth family. The gods of the West were brutally murdered by the Snarl, who proceeded to destroy the first world.

But we also know what Blackwing saw beyond the rift, and that doesn't scan with the idea of the god-killing, world-destroying übermonster.

I've seen some fun theories about the Snarl having undone itself, thus recreating the first world and everyone and everything on it, but here's my theory:
The gods of the West pulled a fast one.

They made it look as if they'd been killed, managed to fool the other pantheons into thinking that the first world had been annihilated, and projected the image of the Snarl so the other pantheons would run away and abandon the first world -- to their uncontested rule.

When the second world was spun around the 'Snarl', it neatly shielded the first world and the gods of the West from their peers, and allowed them to rule in peace. Eventually, when the other gods stopped peeking in on the Snarl, they let the illusion of the übermonster fade away.

If the rifts are torn asunder, we may see some more godly bickering, rather than an erupting world-eater.

[NerdyKris]

I actually had a similar thought a few weeks ago. What if the Snarl is just a cover story for the Gods of the East (West are where the Order is now) being kicked out of the world creating business?

It doesn't mesh with the few times we've seen the Snarl (like in the Azure City Gate when Hinjo examines it for damage) but I think it might be possible.

[Kolero]

Interesting thought! But is there anyway to explain the death of Soon Kim's wife under such a timeline? She was killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) by what appears to be the snarl before Soon learned anything about the tears in the fabric of reality. Of course, that could also be a protective measure on the part of whatever Gods are inside the other reality, but something seems a bit weird about it.

[Psyren]

Something destroyed the souls of both Kraagor and Kim's wife. Otherwise the Scribble would have had no problems raising them. (Hell, Soon even had her intact body, so Raise Dead would have worked.) And had the Dark One not seen it himself, he wouldn't have bothered coming up with the Plan.

Whatever the status of the Snarl right now, that it existed back then is pretty much a given.

[Illsbane]

Their souls do not need to have been destroyed.

The protective measures the gods of the East (I goofed when writing the starting post, sorry!) set up may have killed anything that strayed too close to the rift and then drawn its soul down to the first world to keep up the illusion of the Snarl and discourage the other pantheons from looking too closely.

If those souls are on the first world, sealed up inside the second world and unable to leave, it would be impossible for them to be raised.

[Psyren]

That would require the gods of the East to be so powerful, as to be able to withhold followers' souls of the other pantheons. Is it possible? I suppose, but I'm not buying it all the same.

[Morty]

Yes, I agree that this theory implies a lot of power on the part of the gods of the West, power beyond what even the other gods have shown.

[theinsulabot]

well there is such a thing as soul binding gems and what not, so I suppose one could say they are just killing someone with a custom spell designed to look like a claw and then rapid binding the soul to drag in.

that said this theory feels a bit...random to me, honestly.

[Illsbane]

They don't have to be more powerful than the other pantheons. Just powerful enough to kill someone who stands in front of a rift and yoink their soul inside.

The Snarl's prison is designed to shunt it -- and the space occupied by the first world -- into a pocket dimension, with the second world blocking all of the exits.
As long as the souls never manage to find another rift -- and with the raising of the gates, that had supposedly become impossible -- there is no way out even for a god-killing übermonster, let alone a few confused and frightened petitioners.

[Morty]

What about making three other pantheons' worth of deities think that they destroyed an entire world? That's quite a feat.

[Unisus]

How about that then: The Snarl is not a cover story, but it exists in reality. But instead of destroying, it just shifts to another dimension that one can not reach in any other way. This would cover both the "actually the first world still exists behind the rifts" and the "everyone seeing the snarl is convinced of it's destroying potential".

[Turgon9357]

Upon closer inspection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), the planet in the rift looks kind of like earth (the one most playgrounders live on). We're looking at it from just a bit to the side of the north pole. The white is just cloud cover.

[Kish]

Upon closer inspection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), the planet in the rift looks kind of like earth (the one most playgrounders live on). We're looking at it from just a bit to the side of the north pole. The white is just cloud cover.
Our World is the one thing Rich has explicitly said the world in the rift is not.

[NerdyKris]

Something destroyed the souls of both Kraagor and Kim's wife. Otherwise the Scribble would have had no problems raising them. (Hell, Soon even had her intact body, so Raise Dead would have worked.) And had the Dark One not seen it himself, he wouldn't have bothered coming up with the Plan.

Whatever the status of the Snarl right now, that it existed back then is pretty much a given.

You're assuming that the story Soon Kim told is accurate, or that he wasn't misled, or that the Dark One isn't hiding something from Red Cloak.

I admit it's not a perfect theory, but saying "It's not true because two characters relating it second hand aren't lying" is a poor reason to dismiss it. It doesn't even have to be something more powerful than the gods in there. They might have an agreement with the Gods of the East, or be willing to let the souls be taken there rather than risk another fight. The Snarl might actually exist, but be the personification of those god's anger, not a seperate sentient being.

[Heksefatter]

The Dark Ones doesn't have to deceive Redcloak, nor do the gods of the east have to be exceptionally powerful or the Snarl a lie.

The Snarl could have absorbed the old world or created a new one from what it has absorbed. So, it contains the souls of those it has "eaten", including Kraagor and Soon's wife. Maybe also the eastern gods.

However, the remaining gods, including the Dark One, do not know this. So, they are telling the truth from a certain point - Sorry, I mean, they're just mistaken.

To be honest, I do not think the above proposals are true. It's too simple. But they could be.

[Psyren]

They don't have to be more powerful than the other pantheons. Just powerful enough to kill someone who stands in front of a rift and yoink their soul inside.

And keep it there, that's the problem.



The Snarl's prison is designed to shunt it -- and the space occupied by the first world -- into a pocket dimension, with the second world blocking all of the exits.
As long as the souls never manage to find another rift -- and with the raising of the gates, that had supposedly become impossible -- there is no way out even for a god-killing übermonster, let alone a few confused and frightened petitioners.

That the souls/petitioners could be trapped there, I believe. That a single pantheon is responsible and able to defy the other three in this way, I don't.


You're assuming that the story Soon Kim told is accurate, or that he wasn't misled, or that the Dark One isn't hiding something from Red Cloak.

Indeed I am, but why would the Dark One lie to protect the interests of the Eastern Gods? Especially since they too had a hand in creating the goblins as a fodder race. And Soon could have been mistaken about what exactly prevented his wife's resurrection, but the fact that it was prevented must be true.



I admit it's not a perfect theory, but saying "It's not true because two characters relating it second hand aren't lying" is a poor reason to dismiss it. It doesn't even have to be something more powerful than the gods in there. They might have an agreement with the Gods of the East, or be willing to let the souls be taken there rather than risk another fight. The Snarl might actually exist, but be the personification of those god's anger, not a seperate sentient being.

Your theory has one obvious flaw - how can the deities of one quadrant be more powerful than the deities of the other three? The entire premise of the Crayons of Time segment is that they were equal in power - thus no side could enforce its will over the others.

At best you could say that the Gods of the East all faked their own deaths so they could make their own world beyond the rift; picking up their toys and going home in a sense. But if that were the case, they would probably kill anyone that looked inside one of the rifts, such as Blackwing, to protect their secret from the others.


The Dark Ones doesn't have to deceive Redcloak, nor do the gods of the east have to be exceptionally powerful or the Snarl a lie.

The Snarl could have absorbed the old world or created a new one from what it has absorbed. So, it contains the souls of those it has "eaten", including Kraagor and Soon's wife. Maybe also the eastern gods.

However, the remaining gods, including the Dark One, do not know this. So, they are telling the truth from a certain point - Sorry, I mean, they're just mistaken.

To be honest, I do not think the above proposals are true. It's too simple. But they could be.

This has been my preferred theory from day one. The Snarl is made up of threads of reality - the world behind the rift therefore is due to the Snarl "coalescing" for some as-yet unknown reason.

[Daubechies4]

And keep it there, that's the problem.

How is this such a problem? Xykon, a mere mortal, has had two souls (of epic-level characters, no less) imprisoned as such throughout the entire duration of the comic, as theinsulabot mentioned.

I'm not subscribing to any conjectures about the Snarl/rifts/world yet, but this particular snag doesn't seem to be much of a problem as far as I can tell.

[Psyren]

How is this such a problem? Xykon, a mere mortal, has had two souls (of epic-level characters, no less) imprisoned as such throughout the entire duration of the comic, as theinsulabot mentioned.

Again, if they were willing to go to such lengths to keep their activities beyond the rift secret, they would have killed Blackwing/V too. It makes no sense to me that the Eastern Gods are behind this and there never was a Snarl.

[Illsbane]

Psyren: The gods of the East did not make the ultimate cage -- the other three pantheons of North, South and West did, working together in relative harmony. All the gods of the East had to do was sit there and do nothing while the prison was spun around them out of the very threads of Creation.

As for not killing Blackwing... Maybe the gods of the East had grown complacent and stopped watching the prison around their bubble universe. They had to pay attention as long as the rifts were there, to keep up the illusion of the Snarl standing ready to unmake anything that came too close to the first world.
Once the Gates went up, that became unnecessary because the rifts were sealed shut and there were forces in the second world, actively working to keep them that way and ward off all possible intruders.

Maybe they just went: "Woohoo! Now we can just kick back and relax while the dopes on the outside do all the work for us!"
The gods of OOTS have shown that they are capable of being lazy and petty, after all -- just like their creatures.

*DISCLAIMER* I am not claiming I could not be wrong. It's perfectly likely. But I do see ways I could be right.

[Psyren]

Your theory relies on the Eastern pantheon being cunning enough to fake their own deaths en masse and hide all their activity from the other three godly groups, yet so dumb/lazy they wouldn't silence a bird.

I guess I have nothing more to add here other than "we'll have to wait and see."

[Illsbane]

Well, one more thought: the other gods are their peers, and as a unified whole, they are a threat.

With the gates supposedly blocking all the rifts, a lone bird might have flown under their radar.

[SadisticFishing]

I think the idea isn't that they were too lazy to silence the bird, it's that they stopped watching when the gates went up.

Note that I don't think that this theory is particularly likely, it is most definitely possible.

[Daubechies4]

Again, if they were willing to go to such lengths to keep their activities beyond the rift secret, they would have killed Blackwing/V too. It makes no sense to me that the Eastern Gods are behind this and there never was a Snarl.

Again, "I'm not subscribing to any conjectures about the Snarl/rifts/world yet, but this particular snag doesn't seem to be much of a problem as far as I can tell."

I was contesting only that one point. I don't have strong feelings about the other points (although I enjoy reading and thinking about all the speculation offered by others--including yourself), but this was something that bothered me when I read your earlier post:


That would require the gods of the East to be so powerful, as to be able to withhold followers' souls of the other pantheons. Is it possible? I suppose, but I'm not buying it all the same.

theinsulabot brought it up before I could comment, but her or his comment was never addressed. Your other objections may well be sound (e.g. letting Blackwing escape might indeed have been negligent enough to cast serious doubt on this as a possibility), but I think withholding the souls would be a rather trivial obstacle for the Eastern gods to overcome. If the conjecture is rejected, it could not be on that basis.

[Psyren]

theinsulabot brought it up before I could comment, but her or his comment was never addressed. Your other objections may well be sound (e.g. letting Blackwing escape might indeed have been negligent enough to cast serious doubt on this as a possibility), but I think withholding the souls would be a rather trivial obstacle for the Eastern gods to overcome. If the conjecture is rejected, it could not be on that basis.

I don't think it's trivial at all. Non-interference is a key tenet of this setting - e.g. Tiger getting pissed at Thor + blocking his attempt to help Durkon during the AC battle, and the IFCC being unable to grant V any divine magic during the splice even by proxy. The other gods couldn't even stop the Dark One from joining them, despite knowing that he hated them all. For the Eastern Gods to have such autonomy as to get what they want while stymieing their peers doesn't seem to match up with that.

Powerful non-gods (like Xykon) are not subject to the same restrictions. Roy's Archon indicates that the Upper Planes know what a threat Xykon is, and yet they only seem to be able to move against him through mortal proxies. Similarly, V's pact looks like it's set to break some rules that the IFCC would otherwise be subject to - for all their power, they need Vaarsuvius to make their plans work, otherwise they can do nothing directly at all.

In short, there are lots of things the gods should be able to do easily given their power, but those things appear to be prevented if they impinge on another god's turf. I would imagine that creating their own world separate from the others and stealing the souls of any witnesses would qualify.

[Daubechies4]

I don't think it's trivial at all. Non-interference is a key tenet of this setting... In short, there are lots of things the gods should be able to do easily given their power, but those things appear to be prevented if they impinge on another god's turf.

Aren't these restrictions a matter of policy rather than capability, though? For example, it is implied that the IFCC are technically capable, of granting Vaarsuvius divine power, but they refrain from doing so because of a "non-compete clause with the evil gods (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)."

If the Eastern gods have gone rogue, however, any similar policy (e.g. "imprisonment of souls belonging to another god is forbidden") would be rendered void.

[Mutant Sheep]

I think the idea isn't that they were too lazy to silence the bird, it's that they stopped watching when the gates went up.

Note that I don't think that this theory is particularly likely, it is most definitely possible.

My problem with this is that the Rift over Azure City is very big. Much bigger than the original hole was. And they had months to see this massive gaping hole before this tiny bird came in to look. So wait, yeah, definitely laziness, or incapacitated. If they didn't notice the rift, they wouldn't see a tiny bird looking in. (And if they did see it, they could put... Anything in the way. An out of order sign, illusion of space, something to stop Xykon/IFCC lazily glancing in.)

[SadisticFishing]

Big on one side doesn't necessarily mean big on the other.

[TheYell]

My gut says, go with Patrick McGoohan. Fool me twice...

But as the Snarl is basically an argument backed by the creative forces of the universe, if abandoned onto itself, it formed a stable matrix.