[3.5 RHoD] My party is letting baddies get away.

[DownwardSpiral]

So, my party is about a couple sessions away from the battle of brindol. They just mopped up the third chapter, and are on their way to head to brindol so they can start with defences etc. Unfortunately, they don't realize that letting sarvith, and the three dragons get away wasn't really a good idea. They also didn't kill varanthian, who I rolled to be out hunting the at the time the PCs went through, but is he really allied with the red hand? I couldn't tell. They also neglected to kill ulwai, but I figure the ghostlord will take care of that (they pretty much handed over the phylactery and bolted, so I figure the ghostlord will be responsible for slowly having goblins go missing).

Normally this wouldn't be that bad, but in the streets of blood encounter, The book says all the big dudes you didn't kill come back with a vengeance, And I'm worried the party is going to get slaughtered through things that they didn't exactly know was a mistake.

So I guess I'm here asking, what should I do? Should I just go through with it with lots of npc support and time between waves? Or try to get them to go out into the wilderness to try to hunt down the rest of the dragons etc?

Another idea I was thinking of was having them do chapter 5 before the battle of brindol, and some of the dragons just happen to be there or something.

Additional information: I'm the dm(in case it wasn't clear), and the party consists of a monk,a fighter, an archery rogue, a druid, a wizard, a psion, and a warblade, and sometimes a cleric. They are 6, almost 7 (was going to let them ding when they hit brindol, and they're a wee bit underleveled due to the size of the party).

[RFLS]

I'd run it as it says in the book; it makes sense that the baddies would be there. That being said, why have you not been making the encounters more difficult? I give it at least even odds on a party wipe between Abrithiax, Skather, and Kharn.

[Ivellius]

Well, the dragons aren't scheduled to show up at Brindol, just the other Wyrmlords.

I like running things by the book as well, but things are up to you, I suppose. With such low levels, they might have a hard time dealing with the battle.

[DownwardSpiral]

I'd run it as it says in the book; it makes sense that the baddies would be there. That being said, why have you not been making the encounters more difficult? I give it at least even odds on a party wipe between Abrithiax, Skather, and Kharn.

I don't think I understand what you're trying to say. I have pimped up all the wyrmlords and the dragons, and they got away because of their serious lack of ranged abilites (the wizard missed pretty much all the sessions with dragons, and the fighter refuses to use ranged weapons, and the rogue is sort of useless)

Additionally, without intervention, I don't have to really change anything at this point to make the battle of brindol a slaughterfest.

[DownwardSpiral]

Well, the dragons aren't scheduled to show up at Brindol, just the other Wyrmlords.

I like running things by the book as well, but things are up to you, I suppose. With such low levels, they might have a hard time dealing with the battle.

Oh. Well that helps a bit. But I don't really see saarvith without his dragon buddy (the book mentions how they're like best buds or something iirc).

[RFLS]

I don't think I understand what you're trying to say. I have pimped up all the wyrmlords and the dragons, and they got away because of their serious lack of ranged abilites (the wizard missed pretty much all the sessions with dragons, and the fighter refuses to use ranged weapons, and the rogue is sort of useless)

Additionally, without intervention, I don't have to really change anything at this point to make the battle of brindol a slaughterfest.

Running the campaign in a way that would put a part of 4 at the expected ECL, but for a 7-8 player party, will have characters under leveled, because there's not enough XP to go around. They'll theoretically be able to take on the challenges the book has for them, but at some point, they'll be too far under leveled and it'll be a TPK.

[DownwardSpiral]

Running the campaign in a way that would put a part of 4 at the expected ECL, but for a 7-8 player party, will have characters under leveled, because there's not enough XP to go around. They'll theoretically be able to take on the challenges the book has for them, but at some point, they'll be too far under leveled and it'll be a TPK.

I don't think they're going to be so far behind that they're going to be behind levels of what they're supposed to be, but I get your point. Additionally, Not only are they behind levels, (which their size should make up for, key word should) They're extra wyrmlords.

[JusticeZero]

Enemies getting away is actually going to help them level faster, because they have to deal with the fight again for full XP at a later date. Arrange an ambush for them, but wiggle things so that they are not set up in ways that the ambusher expects. for one, there was no wizard the first time, so they don't plan for one.

[RFLS]

I don't think they're going to be so far behind that they're going to be behind levels of what they're supposed to be, but I get your point. Additionally, Not only are they behind levels, (which their size should make up for, key word should) They're extra wyrmlords.

No, that's the point: at a certain point, size stops being an influence on whether they can win. Millions of kobolds are nominally the same CR as a great wyrm dragon, but they'll lose that fight 100% of the time. I think your players might be at that tipping point, where they're just incapable of winning the published fights, even without the extra Wyrmlords. But. ./shrug. It really depends on the players. I'd be curious to see the builds of the fullcasters; that'll really determine how the fights go.

[DownwardSpiral]

Enemies getting away is actually going to help them level faster, because they have to deal with the fight again for full XP at a later date. Arrange an ambush for them, but wiggle things so that they are not set up in ways that the ambusher expects. for one, there was no wizard the first time, so they don't plan for one.

Right, its a good idea, but I kinda ran into two problems in my head with this.

1. The party doesnt really realize not killing the dudes is bad. Should I tell them or somehow have them find the information to go try to stomp them?

2. The dragons have to be hanging around waiting for an ambush in the middle of nowhere. Does this sort of work in the context of the story? I was thinking of running the marked for death with either a wyrmlord or a dragon involved, but I dont see one of the red hand's top dudes in an ambush like this. It seems plausible though.




No, that's the point: at a certain point, size stops being an influence on whether they can win. Millions of kobolds are nominally the same CR as a great wyrm dragon, but they'll lose that fight 100% of the time. I think your players might be at that tipping point, where they're just incapable of winning the published fights, even without the extra Wyrmlords. But. ./shrug. It really depends on the players. I'd be curious to see the builds of the fullcasters; that'll really determine how the fights go.

Right, I get this is going to be/is already the problem, but what should I do about it? Reel it in a bit? or just have them get torn apart? The wizard is just straight wizard and the usual dm, and hes been playing for years. He actively tries not to do any show stoppers, and thus, usually just throws fireballs with surprising effectiveness.

The psion is my lab partner at school, and hes a psion/thrallherd. He sometimes asked me for my thoughts on his build which I think worked out great. He mainly spams energy ___ and has his thrall either grapple or meathshields himself.

Oh, and the druid is the psion's girlfriend. I forgot/neglected to mention her because shes went into that beast master Prc, and mainly just stands around in battle or tries to heal. I wouldn't really count her as a full caster.

[RFLS]

Right, I get this is going to be/is already the problem, but what should I do about it? Reel it in a bit? or just have them get torn apart? The wizard is just straight wizard and the usual dm, and hes been playing for years. He actively tries not to do any show stoppers, and thus, usually just throws fireballs with surprising effectiveness.

The psion is my lab partner at school, and hes a psion/thrallherd. He sometimes asked me for my thoughts on his build which I think worked out great. He mainly spams energy ___ and has his thrall either grapple or meathshields himself.

Oh, and the druid is the psion's girlfriend. I forgot/neglected to mention her because shes went into that beast master Prc, and mainly just stands around in battle or tries to heal. I wouldn't really count her as a full caster.

Hmm... Okay, it's probably doable, especially if they're all level 7 by the fight. If you're really worried about the streets of blood, split the thunderlizards into some smaller monsters that total the same CR. Basically, though, if you warn the wizard beforehand that it's going to be a hell of a fight, and tell him to give it his all, you should be good. Also, warn the psion to be conservative with his PP. But...hrm. It'll be tough, no matter what, but I think that if you OOC warn your players that it'll be hard, they'll be able to get through it.

[DownwardSpiral]

Hmm... Okay, it's probably doable, especially if they're all level 7 by the fight. If you're really worried about the streets of blood, split the thunderlizards into some smaller monsters that total the same CR. Basically, though, if you warn the wizard beforehand that it's going to be a hell of a fight, and tell him to give it his all, you should be good. Also, warn the psion to be conservative with his PP. But...hrm. It'll be tough, no matter what, but I think that if you OOC warn your players that it'll be hard, they'll be able to get through it.

Alright, sounds good. Thanks for the help guys. :smallsmile:

[Gnorman]

I'd be inclined to worry less about it with such a large party, as the action economy is going to greatly favor them anyway.

[DownwardSpiral]

I'd be inclined to worry less about it with such a large party, as the action economy is going to greatly favor them anyway.

Yeah, I was hoping for that, but I figured a couple second opinions couldn't hurt.

[Gnorman]

Multiple dragons will be tough regardless of party size, though.

[DownwardSpiral]

Multiple dragons will be tough regardless of party size, though.

Someone mentioned the dragons arnt supposed to show up in the streets of blood. So no biggie. I'll probably stick one in chapter 5 though.

[Phaederkiel]

I have a simple solution:

during arbithrax rampage, have the other dragons rampaging too. This will put bryndol in a bad spot (although the book does not say much about the damage arbithrax does to the city) and it makes the situation instantly clear:
Letting the dragons go was NOT the clever option.

Just make sure that the dragons stay seperated for as long as possible.

I'd pobably make a round count and give every Dragon an important NSC he kills after the players failed to engage him before a certain number of rounds.

Then give some healing out for free and allow players to lvl between fights.
This will be a true meatgrinder, but the dragons could flee if the players manage to kill the second...

[Ivellius]

Someone mentioned the dragons arnt supposed to show up in the streets of blood. So no biggie. I'll probably stick one in chapter 5 though.

The dragons, should they survive, are supposed to be at the Fane in Chapter 5. They get to help Tyrgarun defend the entrance, considering they're in their lairs at that point (see p. 99 of the module).

[DownwardSpiral]

I have a simple solution:

during arbithrax rampage, have the other dragons rampaging too. This will put bryndol in a bad spot (although the book does not say much about the damage arbithrax does to the city) and it makes the situation instantly clear:
Letting the dragons go was NOT the clever option.

Just make sure that the dragons stay seperated for as long as possible.

I'd pobably make a round count and give every Dragon an important NSC he kills after the players failed to engage him before a certain number of rounds.

Then give some healing out for free and allow players to lvl between fights.
This will be a true meatgrinder, but the dragons could flee if the players manage to kill the second...

Well, the problem with that is instead of shutting down just arbithriliax (which is like an el 11 encounter by itself), they got to shut down four. Plausible, but likely things are going to go south.




The dragons, should they survive, are supposed to be at the Fane in Chapter 5. They get to help Tyrgarun defend the entrance, considering they're in their lairs at that point (see p. 99 of the module).

Yeah when I read they weren't supposed to be in the streets of blood I figured they would be there, thanks for confirming. I was probably going with this approach and tip the pcs off a bit so they know they arn't going to just storm the place easily.

[KillianHawkeye]

I would advise against running the Fane before Brindol. My players were clever enough to discover its location by backtracking the trail of the invading army, but defending Brindol after already having defeated Tiamat and Azarr Kull isn't really a great climax for the adventure.

[Phaederkiel]

Well, the problem with that is instead of shutting down just arbithriliax (which is like an el 11 encounter by itself), they got to shut down four. Plausible, but likely things are going to go south.



Yes, four, but not at the same time. That the players stand no chance against two dragons at once is obvious. And in bryndol you have at least a chance to let them tackle the dragons one after another. Giving them 3 Dragons at once in the fane is even more sure to kill them then giving them 3 in bryndol. Remember how Dragon-friendly the bridge leading to the fane is. Bryndol is by far the easier setting.

[DownwardSpiral]

Yes, four, but not at the same time. That the players stand no chance against two dragons at once is obvious. And in bryndol you have at least a chance to let them tackle the dragons one after another. Giving them 3 Dragons at once in the fane is even more sure to kill them then giving them 3 in bryndol. Remember how Dragon-friendly the bridge leading to the fane is. Bryndol is by far the easier setting.

I wasn't thinking at the same time either. You have to remember it wouldn't just be the 4 dragons and thats the whole day. There would be four dragons, one after another, and then 4-5 waves of the streets of blood, and then skather. That is not a pleasant day regardless of how you stagger it.