The Scrying Shard - Does it really do what it says?

[Sgt. Cookie]

This thread has been created to stop the derailment of a prior thread, and to open it up to, well, open disscusion.


Here is the RAW of a Scrying shard:


A character of any class can cast scrying using a scrying shard as a focus.

Now, ladies and gentlemen of the playground. Does the Scrying Shard, by RAW, really let ANYBODY cast the spell Scrying, at will, using the Shard as a focus?

[Cruiser1]

Does the Scrying Shard, by RAW, really let ANYBODY cast the spell Scrying, at will, using the Shard as a focus?
No, this item only provides the focus, not the ability to cast the spell itself. The Scrying Shard means a Wizard can cast Scrying without having to buy and carry around a large silver mirror, a Cleric can cast Scrying without holy water, and a Druid can cast Scrying even if there's no natural pool nearby.

[Sgt. Cookie]

That's the commonly accepted RAI. But RAW doesn't say that it's a universal focus.

[Deophaun]

Now, ladies and gentlemen of the playground. Does the Scrying Shard, by RAW, really let ANYBODY cast the spell Scrying, at will, using the Shard as a focus?
I'm not sure where the bolded part came from...

[Sgt. Cookie]

It doesn't specify a number of uses. If it was limited in some way, it would explicitly say so.

Do note that by "At-will" I mean "As often as you damn well please" not "DING! Scrying", as you are still casting the actual spell, casting time and all.

[Callin]

Im gonna say no since that really only covers the cost the Mirror that the Bard/Sorc/Wiz needs + the cost of the Water Font the Cleric needs + an arbitrary cost for the Druid. It just allows the Shard to be used as a smaller portable generic focus for the casting of the spell.

A 4th level spell at will with a costly focus component is sure to cost alot more than 1,350gp.

[Ravenica]

It doesn't specify a number of uses. If it was limited in some way, it would explicitly say so.

Do note that by "At-will" I mean "As often as you damn well please" not "DING! Scrying", as you are still casting the actual spell, casting time and all.

It doesn't specify uses because it isn't a use-activated item, you already noted that point yourself in another thread. If it can't be activated it does not provide any activated ability.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Like I said, nowhere in the RAW of the Scrying Shard explicitly state that it's a universal focus. That's the RAI, were dealing with the RAW.

@Rev: You will also note that I said that the MiC ruling is that such an item is Continuous, it's ALWAYS activated.

[Deophaun]

It doesn't specify a number of uses. If it was limited in some way, it would explicitly say so.
It has no activation, which means that there are no uses to use.

[Sgt. Cookie]

MiC, Page 4 under the Activation heading. Go read it.

[ArcturusV]

Well... if there was some sort of break between "cast scry" and "using", it would make sense as an item that would allow Scrying at Will.

So if it was written as:

"A character of any class can cast scrying, using a scrying shard as a focus."

Then it would seem pretty clear that it means it gives the user the ability to cast scrying.

Where as without that little comma, it reads as merely saying that you use it as the Material Component/Focus of a Scrying Spell. The comma, or lack of comma, makes all the difference.

Now, WotC wrote things sloppily enough I'm not certain which was the RAI goes on it. When it's down to something as fine as the placement of a comma, it's hard to know what WotC was thinking.

[Ravenica]

and rimshot on the grammar wins front :smallbiggrin:

[Deophaun]

MiC, Page 4 under the Activation heading. Go read it.
Good advice. I hope you take it.

[dascarletm]

"A character of any class can cast scrying using a scrying shard as a focus."

A character of any class <-- Noun "AKA No class limit"

can cast <-- Action "This person can cast"

Scrying <-- Direct Object "Scrying can be cast"

Using a Scrying Shard <-- "aka the scrying shard is being used to cast scrying."

As the Focus <-- "where this breaks down, it is being used as a focus."


Entry for Focus: "Focus (F): A focus component is a prop of some sort. Unlike a material component, a focus is not consumed when the spell is cast and can be reused. As with material components, the cost for a focus is negligible unless a price is given. Assume that focus components of negligible cost are in your spell component pouch."

It is being used as a focus, and a focus does not give you an ability to cast a spell.

By raw it is only a substitute for the Focus component of the spell, which does not give you the ability to cast.

[Ravenica]

This thread has been created to stop the derailment of a prior thread, and to open it up to, well, open disscusion.


Here is the RAW of a Scrying shard:



Now, ladies and gentlemen of the playground. Does the Scrying Shard, by RAW, really let ANYBODY cast the spell Scrying, at will, using the Shard as a focus?

My final thoughts on the matter:

At best you could argue that the stone gives you the the capability to cast the spell (not an at will ability to scry) The stone does not grant spell slots or actual ability to cast spells therefore:
Mundane classes with no spell slots or casting ability get nothing.

Casting classes with Scrying on their spell list get the spell at the level it normally appears.
Only really benefits limited spell known spontaneous classes.
Does not work for prepared casters unless they hold the stone at all times. The item must be held to be used as per MiC, thus it would need to be held during preperation, putting the stone down before casting the spell would mean you are no longer capable of casting the spell and the slot would be wasted.

Casting classes without the spell on their list would get it at cleric or wizard level depending on if they are arcane or divine casters. Same caveats for use covered in previous section.

In short it can not possibly provide at will use of the Scry spell in any RAW interpretation.

[Arcanist]

Good advice. I hope you take it.

Cute. :smallannoyed:


Activation: The type of action required to activate the item's
effect, along with what the user must do to activate the item (see
Activating Magic Items, page 219). An entry of — indicates the
item operates continuously, without any need for activation.


Scrying Shard
Price (Item Level): 1,350 gp (5th)
Body Slot: — (held)
Caster Level: 7th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 18) divination
Activation: —
Weight: 1 lb.
Ever-shifting, deep red swirls writhe within
this fist-sized pink crystal.
A character of any class can cast scrying
using a scrying shard as a focus.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item,
scrying.
Cost to Create: 675 gp, 54 XP, 2 days.

I sincerely do hope that in the future you actually read the section BEFORE immediately trying to suggest that they are reading it incorrectly.

Meaning, by RAW the Scrying Shard allows the person holding it to "cast" a continuous Scry while holding the shard, while using it as a focus. It is stupid RAW, but it is indeed written directly in the book as such...

[Callin]

Activation: The type of action required to activate the item's
effect, along with what the user must do to activate the item (see
Activating Magic Items, page 219). An entry of — indicates the
item operates continuously, without any need for activation.

Actually with both by RAW it does not. See above Bold.
Now combine that with this


Scrying Shard
Price (Item Level): 1,350 gp (5th)
Body Slot: — (held)
Caster Level: 7th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 18) divination
Activation: —
Weight: 1 lb.
Ever-shifting, deep red swirls writhe within
this fist-sized pink crystal.
A character of any class can cast scrying
using a scrying shard as a focus.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item,
scrying.
Cost to Create: 675 gp, 54 XP, 2 days.

Meaning it has to activate. Since it has no Activation it cant be Activated and as such does not allow anyone to Cast Scrying

[Arcanist]

Meaning it has to activate. Since it has no Activation it cant be Activated and as such does not allow anyone to Cast Scrying

QFT. I could not have said it any better myself if I tried.

[Ravenica]

Meaning, by RAW the Scrying Shard allows the person holding it to act if under a continuous Scry spell. It is stupid RAW, but it is indeed written directly in the book as such...

Actually it never gives them the effect of any form of scrying spell by RAW

For what you say to be true it would have to apply an effect, never does it say it applies that effect. The applied effect is that anyone (Italics) can cast the spell scrying (underlined) using the scrying shard as a focus (bolded)

It does not grant any other ongoing effect, it does not grant casting ability, it does not grant spell slots to cast said spell. Any attempt to justify any other effect is purely and simply not RAW and merely an artifact of how people may want it to function in their own warped way.

A character of any class can cast scrying
using a scrying shard as a focus.

Covered in my last post are the only ways it could be abused by RAW and even that requires a VERY loose interpretation of what it states.

[Deophaun]

I sincerely do hope that in the future you actually read the section BEFORE immediately trying to suggest that they are reading it incorrectly.
I shouldn't be surprised. Repeating what is said often comes before comprehension.

Take a good, long look at the section you quoted. Now, tell me, how many "uses" are indicated?

[Arcanist]

I shouldn't be surprised. Repeating what is said often comes before comprehension.

Take a good, long look at the section you quoted. Now, tell me, how many "uses" are indicated?

Activation: -, does not indicate there is no "uses", it indicates that it is continuously active meaning that simply by holding it the item is in use.


A character of any class can cast scrying
using a scrying shard as a focus.

A lack of a comma between "scrying" and "using" is relevant. You cannot make grammatical additions as you see fit and declare that it is RAW.


A character of any class can cast scrying, by using a scrying shard as a focus.

You would be correct had the item used THAT text, however it unfortunately does not.


Covered in my last post are the only ways it could be abused by RAW and even that requires a VERY loose interpretation of what it states.

Lets examine that post, shall we?

Ravenica


At best you could argue that the stone gives you the the capability to cast the spell (not an at will ability to scry) The stone does not grant spell slots or actual ability to cast spells therefore:
Mundane classes with no spell slots or casting ability get nothing.

While I do agree with you that it does not give Scry -at will (it has no activation), It declares quite clearly that they can cast the spell; Whether they have the spell slots to do so is entirely up to the character (i.e. a Monk with the Scrying Shard can cast Scrying, provided they have it on their spell list and may cast it).


Does not work for prepared casters unless they hold the stone at all times. The item must be held to be used as per MiC, thus it would need to be held during preperation, putting the stone down before casting the spell would mean you are no longer capable of casting the spell and the slot would be wasted.

I'm curious how you came to this conclusion? :smallconfused: There is nothing to even remotely suggest that you are required to prepare the scry spell in the first place. If anything it would be more accurate to say that the caster would be required to hold the item and can spontaneously cast the spell.


Casting classes without the spell on their list would get it at cleric or wizard level depending on if they are arcane or divine casters. Same caveats for use covered in previous section.

How did you come to this conclusion? That by simply holding the Scrying shard, the spell suddenly appears on your list at it's most available?


In short it can not possibly provide at will use of the Scry spell in any RAW interpretation.

I agree indeed, it does not provide Scry -at will. Most will accept the RAI and disregard the RAW. C'est la vie

[Ravenica]

After re-reading your posts I am not certain I understand what you are trying to say. At times you seem to be making the same point as myself, others you seem to be off on some tangent I cannot follow. I would ask that you better clarify your position in a single comprehensive post. These broken up quote messes are throwing me off. Might be the lack of sleep, I'll be back tomorrow to check this thread out. As such here is my condensed analysis of the item.

Item again for breakdown. Removed completely superfluous data for simplicity's sake (name, price, crafting, aura, weight, fluff)

Body Slot: — (held)
Caster Level: 7th
Activation: —
A character of any class can cast scrying
using a scrying shard as a focus.


Body Slot: - (held)
It must be held in hand to have any effect. No ambiguity and nothing to debate here.

Caster Level: 7th
maximum benefits it can provide for any variable abilities, in this case not overly relevant but worth noting.

Activation: -
Is always active when equipped, it's effect is always provided.

A character of any class can cast scrying
using a scrying shard as a focus.
The primary source of debate.
Things this cannot mean (but has been claimed it can do so far);
- An at will ability to scry
-It does not grant an ability, there is nothing here that even implies that RAW
- A permanent Scry effect
-Again there is nothing here that even implies that RAW
- The ability to cast the spell Scrying at-will without casting ability
- Again not even remotely making sense grammatically, the grammar breakdown to the effect of ActurusV's post which I will add in here as a spoiler for reference
Well... if there was some sort of break between "cast scry" and "using", it would make sense as an item that would allow Scrying at Will.

So if it was written as:

"A character of any class can cast scrying, using a scrying shard as a focus."

Then it would seem pretty clear that it means it gives the user the ability to cast scrying.

Where as without that little comma, it reads as merely saying that you use it as the Material Component/Focus of a Scrying Spell. The comma, or lack of comma, makes all the difference.

Now, WotC wrote things sloppily enough I'm not certain which was the RAI goes on it. When it's down to something as fine as the placement of a comma, it's hard to know what WotC was thinking.
- Grants the ability to cast the spell scrying to a character of any class
- No precedence RAW
- again grammatically incorrect and covered in detailed manner by dascarletm
"A character of any class can cast scrying using a scrying shard as a focus."

A character of any class <-- Noun "AKA No class limit"

can cast <-- Action "This person can cast"

Scrying <-- Direct Object "Scrying can be cast"

Using a Scrying Shard <-- "aka the scrying shard is being used to cast scrying."

As the Focus <-- "where this breaks down, it is being used as a focus."


Entry for Focus: "Focus (F): A focus component is a prop of some sort. Unlike a material component, a focus is not consumed when the spell is cast and can be reused. As with material components, the cost for a focus is negligible unless a price is given. Assume that focus components of negligible cost are in your spell component pouch."

It is being used as a focus, and a focus does not give you an ability to cast a spell.

By raw it is only a substitute for the Focus component of the spell, which does not give you the ability to cast.
- Meaning, by RAW the Scrying Shard allows the person holding it to "cast" a continuous Scry while holding the shard, while using it as a focus.
-Absolutely no precedence for the object to alter the spells duration, RAW or grammatically

[Arcanist]

After re-reading your posts I am not certain I understand what you are trying to say. At times you seem to be making the same point as myself, others you seem to be off on some tangent I cannot follow. I would ask that you better clarify your position in a single comprehensive post.

We are effectively arguing the same point, I just lack a way with words. Assume that if I am not quoting it, I am not disagreeing with it.


Things this cannot mean (but has been claimed it can do so far);
- Meaning, by RAW the Scrying Shard allows the person holding it to "cast" a continuous Scry while holding the shard, while using it as a focus.
-Absolutely no precedence for the object to alter the spells duration, RAW or grammatically

The description of the items effect does not alter the spells duration, it is the use of "Activation: -" that makes the spell function continuously. It's like a custom item of continuous Favor of the Martyr. The item is activated as soon as it enters the requisite body slot or is activated and then continues to function as the spell thereon.

[Ravenica]

We are effectively arguing the same point, I just lack a way with words. Assume that if I am not quoting it, I am not disagreeing with it. Alrighty then, no harm no foul. I happen to agree with you that the loopholes I pointed out don't actually work hence why I hedged it with requiring very loose language skills. I am no way advocating that this is a well constructed sentence or that wizard did a good job, but from a technical standpoint it is accurate. They certainly could have made it easier to understand.




The description of the items effect does not alter the spells duration, it is the use of "Activation: -" that makes the spell function continuously. It's like a custom item of continuous Favor of the Martyr. The item is activated as soon as it enters the requisite body slot or is activated and then continues to function as the spell thereon. The difference is it is not a continuous item of the spell. It has an essentially custom effect not seen nearly anywhere else. This is not unusual as many items in the MiC did. The breakdown where people think the language is ambiguous is primarily a misunderstanding of sentence structure and grammar.

It mostly breaks down because people read the sentence and grab the first potential verb as the predicate "cast" which in most simple sentences would be accurate. Unfortunately this is a complex sentence and the first verb is being used as a future tense adverb. "Can cast" is referring to something that can be done, rather can something that is being done. This leads to the breakdown of understanding that people simplifying the sentence can take to mean that the spell is allowing the casting of the spell. The primary reason you can tell that "cast" or "can cast" are not the sentences predicate is because they do not describe what the sentences subject can do. The predicate in the subject is the present tense verb "using".

The sentences subject is another complex problem with the sentence. People automatically assume that "A character of any class" is the subject. This is incorrect. It is a fair assumption as most sentences begin with the subject, but not all. In this case the sentence is describing the item and its effect. Its actual subject grammatically is "scrying shard". The reason this happens is that the first section of the sentence is a prepositional phrase; it is a complex adverb describing the verb. It is describing the effect of "using" the stone.

The last feature of this complex sentence is the fact that it uses a distributed predicate. While "using" is its function and what it does is "A character of any class can cast scrying" its effect, "as a focus" describes how it is used. We know the item is continuous, it does not need to be activated. It does specifically state it must be used, and the effect of using it is that any class can cast scrying with (the stone) as a focus.

Now here is where the wilful ignorance comes in to grant it powers beyond imagining! It enables people to cast the spell! This is just that, it enables it, but it does not empower it. But who ever lets petty distinctions like that get in the way of ultimate power! Unfortunately for that petty distinction we have to ignore half the sentence to grant us ultimate power and ignore the fact that "using" is the predicate and that "can cast" is instead the focus of its power. The item does not actually grant the ability to cast spells, there is no RAW precedence for such an item, there is no precedence set by the language of the item for this effect either.


This English lesson brought to you by; The word "Pedantic", the letters "html", and the number 500 (word count) :smallbiggrin:

[SaintRidley]

In the simplest terms possible, what is continuous about the Scrying Shard is its utility as a focus. In order to actually use it as a focus, you still have to cast Scrying.

It does exactly what it says, not what Sgt. Cookie's imagination, no matter how fanciful, says.


As for the any class clause, I'd say that those who can't already cast Scrying (say Fighters, Sorcerers who never took the spell, etc.) would get one use (per day? Maybe. Period? Maybe. DM discretion). Personally, I'd strike the words "anyone of any class" entirely or (again, DM discretion) specify a limit to its utility (1/day, 1/week, etc.). It's vague on that point. Letting it be used as a continuous object of Scrying, however, is certainly not the correct call. It's a continuous Focus, not a continuous spell-use.