God Killer

[sambouchah]

A friend of mine has asked if I'd like to join a game where we would slay the Gods/Goddesses and of course I accepted. So what could easily slay a God? I have 20 levels and all my abilities are base twenty, in addition to some other bonuses. I want to deal lots of damage and I love Warforged.
Not sure what I want to play yet

Thanks for any help you can give, Sam

[ArcturusV]

Golden Hyne's Blood?

The Snarl?

Another God?

Most of the god slayer stuff is in the realm of Deus Ex Machina. And really that's what you'd have to count on. As far as I know there is nothing really written that would let you do that in the rules, necessarily. Keep in mind Gods have a "Portfolio Sense" which lets them know the future for some fairly insane distance in time for anything that has to do with what the God oversees (Like the God of what they are). So basically the God will know you are planning to kill them about, what is is... 6 months before you get the first idea in your head about killing a god. So if a God wanted to stop you from killing it? Well, they could do so without you actually knowing that you did anything to piss them off.

If your DM isn't playing that up, then it's probably something where the DM isn't going to really play the God as they should anyway. Or that you'll get some sort of MacGuffin to take care of everything for you anyway.

[Amnestic]

Acquire this class (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7008.0). Take their place. :smallwink:

More seriously, it might depend on your Pantheon, how high you're reaching for and what the rest of your party makeup is.

With 20 in all stats as baseline, your race isn't as big a deal (though Warforged for the immunities is a good one). Given that and your plan, I'd probably aim for an Artificer (assuming you don't mind the book-keeping that such a thing entails).

[sambouchah]

Acquire this class (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7008.0). Take their place. :smallwink:

More seriously, it might depend on your Pantheon, how high you're reaching for and what the rest of your party makeup is.

With 20 in all stats as baseline, your race isn't as big a deal (though Warforged for the immunities is a good one). Given that and your plan, I'd probably aim for an Artificer (assuming you don't mind the book-keeping that such a thing entails).

It's actually all pantheons. One per planet. We're using Deities and Demigods for that

[Amnestic]

It's actually all pantheons. One per planet. We're using Deities and Demigods for that

So your plan is to kill every deity from Deities and Demigods?

Yeah, I wouldn't go with anything below T2. Binder (assuming online Vestiges) might be interesting, and a great deal less book-keeping than an Artificer :smalltongue:

[NM020110]

Hmmm...a few ways that I can think of.

Easy: Get enough xp to get to level 21. Take the epic spellcasting feat. http://offtopic.freeforums.org/images/smilies/trollface.gif

Normal: Go on some manner of quest to get the little-known artifact with the power to slay gods, or something.:smallsigh:

Hard: Destroy the world, cutting off all worship. This may or may not actually defeat them, but you will likely level up in the process.:smallwink:

Lunatic: Take out your copy of Elder Evils and look up Pandorym.:smallbiggrin:

Extra: Find a copy of the Immortal's Handbook. There are rules there for ascending. Use them to become a deity (this will likely take a while), and declare yourself to be the god of deicide.:smallcool:

[Nohwl]

enter dweomerkeeper as an archivist and use holy word or one of the equivalents as a supernatural ability with a really high caster level? no spell resistance because it's a supernatural ability and it's not a death effect. things that have a low enough hit dice just die without a save. problem would be getting to the deities.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, if you are using the Deities and Demigods stats, it isn't actually all that hard to just walk in (teleport wish in, actually), and curbstomp them in straight combat, if you are optimized sufficiently.

[ArcturusV]

Well, except you should never "get the drop" on them. So when you do Teleport Wish in? They've had 6 months to prepare. You don't just pop in and go 4(5, 6?) on 1 with a god and go "HA! SMITE DEITY!"

It'd be something where, when you do teleport in, you basically teleported into a death trap, where just mere survival should be a "victory", much less actually killing them.

Yeah, their stats are low and easy to kill in some duel situation. But there's no reason they should ever give you anything even approaching a fair fight.

[Gavinfoxx]

There are actually a TON of ways around that clause... people have come up with quite a few of them.

And don't start by taking out deities with that particular ability, you know?

[sambouchah]

How would a Druid fair?

[ArcturusV]

Most of the ways I've seen around the ability shouldn't rightly work. The most common I've seen usually involves crafting your own plane with Genesis where time scales differently so their "6 month" warning happens pretty much in the blink of an eye.

Except near as I can read the ability, and seen it play? The moment you start plotting it goes off. When you first start prepping to do this, they already knew for 6 months.

... that's hard to pull away from.

[Rubik]

Well, gods with stats like those found in 3.0 and 3.5 are pushovers if you're a T1 or T2 class, assuming you optimize well. Just make sure you're not "mortal," as some gods have abilities that auto-kill mortals. If you're warforged this should work as enough of a counter to that, as warforged are immortal (as are elan and anyone with the Wedded to History feat, among other things).

If you want some serious cheese, using the Ice Assassin spell with Eschew Materials should be able to get you about any creature you like. If you're a psion, you can get access to the Fusion and Astral Seed powers, which can give you any ability from the creatures you Fusion with, assuming you manifest Astral Seed while Fusion'd, including an Ice Assassin of yourself, which will have the following:


Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.

Since you're permanently Fusion'd with an aleax of yourself, YOU are the only one who can hurt you. The gods can't do anything about it, either.

[DMVerdandi]

Even though most deities are something like 60 HD high, they have the same problem many characters have. Action economy. A gang of epic level characters that have been modernly optimized are far better off than horribly optimized deities. And they are optimized HORRIBLY.


However, the book says that they are supposed to be insane challenges for 20th level characters, and not exactly epic level ones.


Do yourself a favor, create them from scratch. Hell, use the same amount of HD per deity, but make them like one of your players would make a character.


Boccob is a Wiz20/CLR20.
Bump that noise...
Just for the sake him being boccob, It should have been an archivist on the other side, and possibly wizard being prestiged into maybe an incantatrix or something.
Moreover, the use of an epic mystic theurge class would have been more... Intelligent.

Wiz 9/Ur-priest 1/Mystic theurge 20/Incantatrix 10
Much more of a beast,IMO.

And most of his feats are irrelevant. Craft feats? Of no use to a spellcaster with Alter reality.

Another problem is boccob is not built around being a deity, understandable, but still not something that provides as much of a threat.


They aren't at all permanently buffed.
All deities should be buffed permanently with all buffs. It would take no longer than a month of using alter reality on themselves(A month they should have used within the second of gaining alter reality). And they have no need to eat or sleep. They could go to their own plane and buff themselves to high heaven.

Moreover, these buffs would be made with metamagic.
Seeing as how time flows differently on their own planes, It could be a moment in time on the natural plane where a deity goes, buffs himself, and comes back to wreck anuses.

moreover there is a lack of optimization on the parts of unique salient divine abilities.

Create a salient divine ability called "DIVINE Bonus feats".

A deity obtains a number of feats or epic feats equal to his divine rank. These feats do not have to be qualified for to gain their benefits.
If the rank of the deity increases, the deity gains new bonus feats for every increase in rank.




And then maybe a divine retraining and divine gestalt Salient Divine Ability.



Throw that at them.

[Rubik]

You might consider becoming an illithid savant. Start eating the brains of other creatures and build yourself a gestalt of all sorts of classes.

The manifesting ability of a 20th level psion? Got it. The metamind's font of power? Got it. The ability to learn powers like a spell-to-power erudite without the unique powers per day limiter? Got it.

You could be an utter monster, especially if you use the various tricks that can be gotten with optimization. Font of power + the Temporal Reiteration power means you get infinite power points all day long, at the expense of each round's swift action. And if you made an armor-mounted magical trap (see the DMG) of Temporal Reiteration that manifests it each round you wouldn't have to worry about that unless you're dispelled.

The Supernatural Transformation feat from Savage Species applies to psionics, meaning that you can no longer be dispelled, you don't generate attacks of opportunity, and a few other nice bonuses, such as bumping your manifester level up to your hit dice (very nice, as it lets you scale into epic nicely, without having to take manifesting classes if you don't want to).

Use the Fusion/Astral Seed trick and Gate in a few epic level critters, like hagunemnons and prismatic dragons. You can get up to 78 HD, with a great wyrm.

Basically, go in loaded for bear, and it won't be too horribly difficult to go after these things.

[Arundel]

Even though most deities are something like 60 HD high, they have the same problem many characters have. Action economy. A gang of epic level characters that have been modernly optimized are far better off than horribly optimized deities. And they are optimized HORRIBLY.


However, the book says that they are supposed to be insane challenges for 20th level characters, and not exactly epic level ones.


Do yourself a favor, create them from scratch. Hell, use the same amount of HD per deity, but make them like one of your players would make a character.


Boccob is a Wiz20/CLR20.
Bump that noise...
Just for the sake him being boccob, It should have been an archivist on the other side, and possibly wizard being prestiged into maybe an incantatrix or something.
Moreover, the use of an epic mystic theurge class would have been more... Intelligent.

Wiz 9/Ur-priest 1/Mystic theurge 20/Incantatrix 10
Much more of a beast,IMO.

And most of his feats are irrelevant. Craft feats? Of no use to a spellcaster with Alter reality.

Another problem is boccob is not built around being a deity, understandable, but still not something that provides as much of a threat.


They aren't at all permanently buffed.
All deities should be buffed permanently with all buffs. It would take no longer than a month of using alter reality on themselves(A month they should have used within the second of gaining alter reality). And they have no need to eat or sleep. They could go to their own plane and buff themselves to high heaven.

Moreover, these buffs would be made with metamagic.
Seeing as how time flows differently on their own planes, It could be a moment in time on the natural plane where a deity goes, buffs himself, and comes back to wreck anuses.

moreover there is a lack of optimization on the parts of unique salient divine abilities.

Create a salient divine ability called "DIVINE Bonus feats".

A deity obtains a number of feats or epic feats equal to his divine rank. These feats do not have to be qualified for to gain their benefits.
If the rank of the deity increases, the deity gains new bonus feats for every increase in rank.




And then maybe a divine retraining and divine gestalt Salient Divine Ability.



Throw that at them.

See, at the point when a deity starts throwing salient divine ability alter reality around it doesn't matter. Or better yet, lets look at Pelor. Go attack him, and he will unleash the burning hate. It is RAW completely and explicitly within his power to look at you and decide you die. No save, no choice, you are dead.

[Namfuak]

I don't remember exactly how it works, but you can become an illithid savant, make an ice assassin of an aleax of yourself, and then consume it to gain Singular Enemy of yourself, which means that nothing else can harm you. I'm probably missing something, and this doesn't solve the portfolio issue, but at least we have a way for protection from death and only death deity abilities.

[Arundel]

I don't remember exactly how it works, but you can become an illithid savant, make an ice assassin of an aleax of yourself, and then consume it to gain Singular Enemy of yourself, which means that nothing else can harm you. I'm probably missing something, and this doesn't solve the portfolio issue, but at least we have a way for protection from death and only death deity abilities.

I wouldn't be sure of that. The singular enemy clause usually wins because it is specific trumping general. This life and death power is also rather specific. I don't know how one is going to trump the other. That is just the start of your concerns though. I am confident a god can use miracle to just imprisonment:yes you.

[ArcturusV]

Not to mention where Aleax's come from is Gods themselves, their own personal hitmen. So for all your prep work he can just spit out some ungodly number of Aleax's all with your exact power, who are capable of harming you, and just out action economy you.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Hmm. My plan:

1: Warforged Artificer (or Wizard, or Cleric) 20.

2: Create your own plane where time passes 1,000X more slowly.

3: Wait.

[Coidzor]

How would a Druid fair?

You get shapechange so not only do you have 9th level Druid Spells, you also have 9th level Cleric Spells. Possibly 9th level Wizard Spells if Ethergaunt are a thing.


Not to mention where Aleax's come from is Gods themselves, their own personal hitmen. So for all your prep work he can just spit out some ungodly number of Aleax's all with your exact power, who are capable of harming you, and just out action economy you.

My understanding was that they're a one time only thing by default, huh.


Hmm. My plan:

1: Warforged Artificer (or Wizard, or Cleric) 20.

2: Create your own plane where time passes 1,000X more slowly.

3: Wait.

The best estimate that my quick googling found for the old routine of the Sun becoming a red giant and killing off all life on Earth is about 7.6 billion years. So that's ~7.6 million years if the planet is roughly analogous to Earth in its cosmological configuration, more if you can't get it to pass that slowly, less if you can get it to pass even more slowly.

[ArcturusV]

Ah, so it is. Forgot. Honest mistake. Though he could get a lot of different deities together to do it.

Interestingly enough, reading the bit about Aleax limitations it makes me wonder if the typical Ice Assassin trick works at all then. I'd have to read up on it again. But I'm getting an inkling that there's something wrong with the usual interpretation that means it shouldn't really work.

[Fates]

snip

...While this all makes sense, keep in mind that the OP is one of the players, not the DM.

[Fates]

You get shapechange so not only do you have 9th level Druid Spells, you also have 9th level Cleric Spells. Possibly 9th level Wizard Spells if Ethergaunt are a thing.

I think there's some debate as to whether or not shapechange gives you spellcasting. I know it does by RAW, but no DM in his/her right mind would allow it.

[LTwerewolf]

If a god is played properly, you shouldn't ever be able to kill them. It generally takes more than one god to kill another in their home turf, unless some exceedingly odd circumstances happen. If you do kill a god, then your dm isn't playing it properly. They don't just use their own powers, they use the power of their entire plane against you. All at once. Most of the time, players shouldn't even be able to get to the god.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

The best estimate that my quick googling found for the old routine of the Sun becoming a red giant and killing off all life on Earth is about 7.6 billion years. So that's ~7.6 million years if the planet is roughly analogous to Earth in its cosmological configuration, more if you can't get it to pass that slowly, less if you can get it to pass even more slowly.

Yeah, but it's a DND world, so not all that stable.

I give it a week, tops, before someone screws up and the whole thing goes pear-shaped.

[LTwerewolf]

I think there's some debate as to whether or not shapechange gives you spellcasting. I know it does by RAW, but no DM in his/her right mind would allow it.

I rule that it does, but I also rule you need 8 hours worth of rest and an hour of prep time to start casting them, as normal. Uninterrupted rest time. So that's 9 hours off your wild shape, before anything else at all happens.

[ArcturusV]

Well... that doesn't really make sense. I mean your ruling on requiring Rest and Study makes some sense. But doesn't quite go far enough.

I mean, I shapechange into something with Wizard Casting, okay, fine. But wizards have to study their spellbooks to get spells. And I don't have a spellbook (Or understand spells in a spellbook unless already arranged somehow).

So you go, A HA! Clerics! They just "know" their spells automatically so I don't have that problem.

True. But you also need a divine connection to get spells at all. You have to be a True Believer in, whatever source you are getting spells from (exception: Ur-Priest of course). The fact that you are an unproven "faithful" even if you are faithful means the God/Force in question might just go, "Hmm, new cleric asking for spells? Okay, here's your allotment of level 0 and level 1 spells."

[LTwerewolf]

Well... that doesn't really make sense. I mean your ruling on requiring Rest and Study makes some sense. But doesn't quite go far enough.

I mean, I shapechange into something with Wizard Casting, okay, fine. But wizards have to study their spellbooks to get spells. And I don't have a spellbook (Or understand spells in a spellbook unless already arranged somehow).

So you go, A HA! Clerics! They just "know" their spells automatically so I don't have that problem.

True. But you also need a divine connection to get spells at all. You have to be a True Believer in, whatever source you are getting spells from (exception: Ur-Priest of course). The fact that you are an unproven "faithful" even if you are faithful means the God/Force in question might just go, "Hmm, new cleric asking for spells? Okay, here's your allotment of level 0 and level 1 spells."

You are absolutely, positively right, and I enforce those as well. I do go a little different though with the cleric. That god will give you spells, but they may not be the spells you wanted and they may not target the creatures you wanted. Gods don't tend to appreciate the usurping of their powers.

[Flickerdart]

Wiz 9/Ur-priest 1/Mystic theurge 20/Incantatrix 10
Much more of a beast,IMO.

An Ur-Priest god? That's an ...interesting... idea.

[Coidzor]

I mean, I shapechange into something with Wizard Casting, okay, fine. But wizards have to study their spellbooks to get spells. And I don't have a spellbook (Or understand spells in a spellbook unless already arranged somehow).

Let's just say that ve haff our vays of acquiring loot.


So you go, A HA! Clerics! They just "know" their spells automatically so I don't have that problem.

True. But you also need a divine connection to get spells at all. You have to be a True Believer in, whatever source you are getting spells from (exception: Ur-Priest of course). The fact that you are an unproven "faithful" even if you are faithful means the God/Force in question might just go, "Hmm, new cleric asking for spells? Okay, here's your allotment of level 0 and level 1 spells."

It's been awhile since I've read the relevant splats and all, but I think you're mixing some houserules into that heady mix of canon there, which is understandable as it's pretty much unspecified and left up to the DM/setting aside from vague and nebulous statements about belief.

True Believer is just a feat, after all, and not a good one.


I think there's some debate as to whether or not shapechange gives you spellcasting. I know it does by RAW, but no DM in his/her right mind would allow it.

No DM in his or her right mind would have a God-Killing campaign, so I'm feeling pretty good about those odds. :smallcool:


An Ur-Priest god? That's an ...interesting... idea.

Makes a certain amount of sense for some methods of apotheosis at least. Like you kill the guy, you get his job variants.

Granted, cleric levels on a deity don't make a lot of sense for deities that aren't tied to a bigger deity as its herald or patsy or whathaveyou.

Cleric casting makes a lot of sense for any deity that can grant spells, mind.


You are absolutely, positively right, and I enforce those as well. I do go a little different though with the cleric. That god will give you spells, but they may not be the spells you wanted and they may not target the creatures you wanted. Gods don't tend to appreciate the usurping of their powers.

If you're going to run a campaign with the goal of deicide there are far more ways you can lolTPK the players that it's a waste of everyone's time to be that petty.

[Fates]

No DM in his or her right mind would have a God-Killing campaign, so I'm feeling pretty good about those odds. :smallcool:

Point taken. :smallamused:

[ArcturusV]

Actually I was thinking in context of some spells. I knwo there's one, one of the few Enchantment spells that isn't Mind-Effecting, which says something like "Severs your connection to divine power, you cannot cast divine spells, get new spells, etc". Antipathy? I can't remember the name, which makes looking it up a pain of course...

So there's obvious RAW connection that implies you have to have some sort of actual connection and faith in your divine source to get your Miracle Powers. On top of the usual Alignments and Tenets thing.

[LTwerewolf]

L
If you're going to run a campaign with the goal of deicide there are far more ways you can lolTPK the players that it's a waste of everyone's time to be that petty.

You call it petty, I call it a god being even more resourceful than the character is. What god in their right mind would grant spells in order for those spells to kill him/her? Exactly, they wouldn't.

[Fates]

Actually I was thinking in context of some spells. I knwo there's one, one of the few Enchantment spells that isn't Mind-Effecting, which says something like "Severs your connection to divine power, you cannot cast divine spells, get new spells, etc". Antipathy? I can't remember the name, which makes looking it up a pain of course...

So there's obvious RAW connection that implies you have to have some sort of actual connection and faith in your divine source to get your Miracle Powers. On top of the usual Alignments and Tenets thing.


All enchantments are mind-affecting spells.

No dice, I'm afraid.

[Coidzor]

You call it petty, I call it a god being even more resourceful than the character is. What god in their right mind would grant spells in order for those spells to kill him/her? Exactly, they wouldn't.

Well, for starters you're making an assumption that we're playing in Forgotten Realms when that's not a given. Further, there's usually some deity that wants another deity offed.

And, as I said, if you really wanted to lolTPK the party, there's a whole lot more interesting options than merely screwing the player via DM dishonesty.

[LTwerewolf]

Well, for starters you're making an assumption that we're playing in Forgotten Realms when that's not a given. Further, there's usually some deity that wants another deity offed.

And, as I said, if you really wanted to lolTPK the party, there's a whole lot more interesting options than merely screwing the player via DM dishonesty.

It's not dishonesty, and I didn't say tpk either. Even if there was a deity that wanted another offed, they're not going to be granting spells to beings that clearly don't believe in them.

Also, the fact that most deities have access to this:

Alter Reality
Prerequisite

Cha 29.
Benefit

This ability is similar to the wish spell. The deity merely thinks of something and then makes it so. Doing this requires at least a standard action.
Notes

The deity can duplicate any spell of 9th level or lower as a standard action. The duplicated spell has no material or XP component, and the DC of its saving throw (if one is allowed) is 20 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier.

The deity also can duplicate a spell with any metamagic feat (so long as the metamagic feat is available to characters of 20th level or lower). This use of the ability requires the deity to rest for 1 round for each level that the feat would normally add to the spell. It still takes a standard action to use this ability, so there is no point in using the ability to duplicate a quickened spell.

The deity can render a magical or supernatural effect permanent. The rest requirement varies with the effect: 10 minutes per level of the effect times the number of subjects affected, 10 minutes per total Hit Dice of creatures affected, or 10 minutes per 10-foot cube affected. Use the highest applicable value.

The deity can create temporary, nonmagical objects. This works like the Create Object ability (including the required rest period), except that the items last one day per rank.

The deity also can create permanent nonmagical objects as if using the Create Object ability except that all rest requirements are doubled and there is no reduction in rest time for being on an Outer Plane or in the deity’s own realm.

The deity can create temporary magic items or creatures. This works like the Divine Creation ability (including the required rest period), except that the items or creatures created last 1 hour per rank. This ability cannot create permanent magic items or creatures.

The deity can reshape a landscape, creating any type of terrain the deity can imagine. Each 10-foot cube of material to be reshaped requires 1 round of effort, and the deity must rest for one day per 10-foot cube shaped after the work is completed.
Suggested Portfolio Elements

Any.

Is probably good indication that they shouldn't ever even get there.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'd like to take this time to point out that clerics don't HAVE to worship a god to get their domains/spells. They can just worship some form of universal or platonic ideal and get the same effect.:smallsmile:

[Rubik]

I'd like to take this time to point out that clerics don't HAVE to worship a god to get their domains/spells. They can just worship some form of universal or platonic ideal and get the same effect.:smallsmile:So...do they have to kill all the ideals next?

Also, with decent op-fu it definitely IS possible to deicide everyone. You just have to know how to utilize optimization correctly. I've got a build that's very nearly as strong as Pun Pun, and that's without using his tricks to get there...though it DOES use illithid savant, so there's that.

I don't NEED illithid savant, however, given that I can get everything with Fusion and Astral Seed, but I.S. allows me to cherry pick some abilities while avoiding others (such as the ability for erudites to learn new powers and the spell-to-power ACF without the stupid unique powers per day limitations).

[LTwerewolf]

You're assuming the players op-fu and the gods don't, in that case.

[Rubik]

You're assuming the players op-fu and the gods don't, in that case.If the DM is using the Deities and Demigods builds, that's exactly the case.

Also, don't ever take epic mystic theurge. Take a close look at it and tell me what you see. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicMysticTheurge)

[Elricaltovilla]

You're assuming the players op-fu and the gods don't, in that case.

The OP did state that the entire point of the campaign was to KILL the gods (all the gods) so it's perfectly safe to assume that the DM is willing to make it possible to kill said gods. You're assuming that the gods are going to be played like players, instead of like monster encounters, which I think is the wrong way to look at it.

OP is looking to gear up for a campaign, not theorycrafting.


So...do they have to kill all the ideals next?



I only pointed that out as a response to the weird discussion about gods handing out spells to people who shapechange so that they can get spells to kill the gods.

You don't even need gods to get cleric spells, which always made me wonder why Ur-Priests even had to steal other gods spells, when they could get them elswhere. But they are Ur-Priests, and thus, petty ****s.

[Arundel]

The OP did state that the entire point of the campaign was to KILL the gods (all the gods) so it's perfectly safe to assume that the DM is willing to make it possible to kill said gods. You're assuming that the gods are going to be played like players, instead of like monster encounters, which I think is the wrong way to look at it.

OP is looking to gear up for a campaign, not theorycrafting.


Well, that's sort of the point. It is nearly impossible to kill a greater deity by RAW (at least one with decent SDAs). Thus for the campaign for work, DM fiat is required. DM fiat is required for every campaign sure, but in this campaign is has to be the center point. This makes it a little hard to give anything other than the most general of recommendations, as there is nothing we can use to base a comparison off of.

[Coidzor]

It's not dishonesty, and I didn't say tpk either. Even if there was a deity that wanted another offed, they're not going to be granting spells to beings that clearly don't believe in them.

Violating the rules on spells to the extent that you're suggesting would be. Especially as you posited it in a way so as to present it to the players as having prepped the spells normally only to find out that they don't work.


Also, the fact that most deities have access to this:

Alter Reality
Prerequisite

Cha 29.
Benefit

This ability is similar to the wish spell. The deity merely thinks of something and then makes it so. Doing this requires at least a standard action.
Notes

The deity can duplicate any spell of 9th level or lower as a standard action. The duplicated spell has no material or XP component, and the DC of its saving throw (if one is allowed) is 20 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier.

The deity also can duplicate a spell with any metamagic feat (so long as the metamagic feat is available to characters of 20th level or lower). This use of the ability requires the deity to rest for 1 round for each level that the feat would normally add to the spell. It still takes a standard action to use this ability, so there is no point in using the ability to duplicate a quickened spell.

The deity can render a magical or supernatural effect permanent. The rest requirement varies with the effect: 10 minutes per level of the effect times the number of subjects affected, 10 minutes per total Hit Dice of creatures affected, or 10 minutes per 10-foot cube affected. Use the highest applicable value.

The deity can create temporary, nonmagical objects. This works like the Create Object ability (including the required rest period), except that the items last one day per rank.

The deity also can create permanent nonmagical objects as if using the Create Object ability except that all rest requirements are doubled and there is no reduction in rest time for being on an Outer Plane or in the deity’s own realm.

The deity can create temporary magic items or creatures. This works like the Divine Creation ability (including the required rest period), except that the items or creatures created last 1 hour per rank. This ability cannot create permanent magic items or creatures.

The deity can reshape a landscape, creating any type of terrain the deity can imagine. Each 10-foot cube of material to be reshaped requires 1 round of effort, and the deity must rest for one day per 10-foot cube shaped after the work is completed.
Suggested Portfolio Elements

Any.

Is probably good indication that they shouldn't ever even get there.

Yeah, I know. Hence why I mentioned "lolTPK" so many times.

[ArcturusV]

No dice, I'm afraid.

Questionable, and debatable. At the time Player's Handbook came out, that was true. And of SRD only/core stuff, that's true. But last time I saw a count there's something like 14 spells in the Enchantment School that are not actually given the tag "Mind-Affecting". Though what that means is something I've seen debated up on here before. I take it to mean mostly what is says, at the time it was printed (Or with SRD only material) it's true. But things changed after that.

For example, not even really looking hard. Just happened to be flipping through a book. The spell "Addiction", Book of Vile Darkness, page 84. Enchantment spell, no Mind-Affecting tag. Possibly because it deals with chemical dependency and thus physiological responses rather than an altering of perceptions. But still, it's there.

[Fates]

Questionable, and debatable. At the time Player's Handbook came out, that was true. And of SRD only/core stuff, that's true. But last time I saw a count there's something like 14 spells in the Enchantment School that are not actually given the tag "Mind-Affecting". Though what that means is something I've seen debated up on here before. I take it to mean mostly what is says, at the time it was printed (Or with SRD only material) it's true. But things changed after that.

It'd have been nice if WotC had decided to bring that up when they started making those spells. Ah, well. Just another thing to add to the list of things they should have done with 3.5.

But I was pretty sure the spell that totally removes divine power only works on a fellow member of your own clergy....

[Deffers]

Tsk tsk tsk. Needs more Emperor Tippy. I believe at one point he had a way to essentially kill the only god LEFT, who'd killed all the other gods in response to someone who was working ALONE. Rubik's on the right track-- illithid savant with ice assassin and singular enemy, also do this roughly a million times on your own demiplane with genesis IIRC, and then use some specific ability of illithid savant to acquire literally all the knowledge of all your clones who you'd have doing something else, essentially generating an unbeatable character.

[Phelix-Mu]

Someone mentioned action economy being a problem for deities before, and I just wanted to mention something that I talked about before on another thread (is it just me or is this a semi-monthly thread topic?).

It seems to me (with all my very spotty knowledge of deity mechanics) that there is nothing stopping Pelor (example) from having multiple avatars present on the same plane. In fact, if this is the case, then it would be very silly of him not to have two or more inside his personal demesne on Elysium. And he could always rally the troops, so to speak.

Finally, all the stuff that I usually see mentioned totally relies on the DM just ignoring the fact that Pelor (or whomever) is worshiped/served by an arbitrarily large number of high-level tier 1s, solars, unique celestials, etc, etc, etc. Pelor has been around the block. His church is quite old (and has some crazy gold at its beck and call), but somehow Mr. X, the High-Op Wizard, is going to just stride in and do something that all the King's Horsemen and All the King's Men, and the King himself, haven't thought of and planned against? Sounds unlikely.

Countermeasures against castings of genesis aren't impossible, either.

In short, the DM should really throw the book at the pcs, because otherwise the "deities" are just trumped up 20th level npcs with some nice boomstick and utility DSAs. The insinuation that gods/goddesses are somehow having a lower op-level and power output than pcs seems to belie the idea of a deity.

[Feralventas]

Druid5, Planar Sheppard 10, Warblade5.

Attune yourself to the Concordant Planes of the Outland.

Use your Planar bubble effect to apply the effect of the core of the plane, where even Deific powers are annulled.

Get in proximity via druid spells, resist attacks via Wall of Blades and Iron Heart Surge.

Use your 20 levels of Concentration as a class skill to kill the god-rendered-mortal with one blow via Greater Insightful Strike.

Constitution is your primary stat. 2ndary is Wisdom. Intuitive Attack and the UA druid archetype to get Wis to AC as a Monk gives you an unarmed strike if you want to do this yourself, otherwise Natural Bond and a normal druid will let your Animal Companion maul them to death once both of you are close.

Difficulty will be in getting close to a reality-warping creature, but 15th level druid should be able to handle most of that.

[ArcturusV]

Well, even the most minor of Gods I've seen still tend to have an ability to snap their fingers and summon up a legion on demand. So yeah. I do agree with you Phelix-Mu. Outside of DM Fiat/MacGuffins/Deus ex Machina, it just shouldn't be happening.

Been looking for something about the Ice Assassin Aleax Mindswap Copy thing. It's probably somewhere really obvious that I'm overlooking. Course there might be a step in there I'm forgetting about that makes it silly but possible.

[Rubik]

Well, even the most minor of Gods I've seen still tend to have an ability to snap their fingers and summon up a legion on demand. So yeah. I do agree with you Phelix-Mu. Outside of DM Fiat/MacGuffins/Deus ex Machina, it just shouldn't be happening.

Been looking for something about the Ice Assassin Aleax Mindswap Copy thing. It's probably somewhere really obvious that I'm overlooking. Course there might be a step in there I'm forgetting about that makes it silly but possible.You don't need a mind-swap. A combination of both Fusion and Astral Seed will do it. Just off yourself while still Fusion'd and you don't have to worry about having an aleax around that can (potentially) hurt you.

At least that way it couldn't be Wished back to somehow be tricked into trying to kill you.

[ArcturusV]

See, that was one of the stumbling blocks I was thinking of. When an Aleax kills you (Which would happen if you did something to kill off your original body), you get your soul yoinked out of your vessel (No save, no resistance, just yoinked) and brought before a God who gets to basically pass judgement on you as they wish.

So you do something (Mind swapping, Fusions, etc), kill off the original (Or your new body with your Aleax self), and bam, your soul gets sucked up to probably the guy you were doing this whole thing to kill in the first place, so he can pass judgement on your helpless soul.

[Coidzor]

The insinuation that gods/goddesses are somehow having a lower op-level and power output than pcs seems to belie the idea of a deity.

It's not really an insinuation when it's published canon. :smallconfused:

The canon is pretty much agreed to be pretty dumb and to be discarded in this case except by those who don't realize how weak they are or simply haven't ever seen their stats.

[Rubik]

See, that was one of the stumbling blocks I was thinking of. When an Aleax kills you (Which would happen if you did something to kill off your original body), you get your soul yoinked out of your vessel (No save, no resistance, just yoinked) and brought before a God who gets to basically pass judgement on you as they wish.

So you do something (Mind swapping, Fusions, etc), kill off the original (Or your new body with your Aleax self), and bam, your soul gets sucked up to probably the guy you were doing this whole thing to kill in the first place, so he can pass judgement on your helpless soul.Hmm. I see your point. I suppose you could always use illithid savant to eat its brain and take its Singular Enemy ability so you don't have to worry about the rest of it.

Or you could kill your aleax after the Fusion ends, and you won't actually be an aleax until you've come back, thereby avoiding the whole mess.

Just find some way to prevent its return. I suppose NOT killing it and just doing the Flesh to Stone/Rock to Mud shuffle would work.

[Karnith]

The canon is pretty much agreed to be pretty dumb and to be discarded in this case except by those who don't realize how weak they are or simply haven't ever seen their stats.
Such as the oft-maligned Imhotep, the mighty 20th-level expert. While the rest aren't as bad, most deities are just poorly built, and rely on big numbers from lots of HD/divine rank to be threatening. Which really just doesn't work.

Incidentally, if anyone absolutely must have gods with stats, I would recommend using the Dicefreaks deities.

[Arundel]

Isn't there something that is a CR9 and grants spells? That one may be doable.

[Phelix-Mu]

Incidentally, if anyone absolutely must have gods with stats, I would recommend using the Dicefreaks deities.

Ditto, I saw their rendition of Orcus. It was...*sigh*...a thing of beauty. And I'm no fan of Orcus.

A god should have all the resources it needs to redo it's makeup pretty easily. I was always unclear on how customized a specific avatar could be. I should read Deities and Demigods more thoroughly, but much of it was, as has been noted, kind of sad.

[Karnith]

Isn't there something that is a CR9 and grants spells? That one may be doable.
Doresain, the King of Ghouls, was statted up in the Book of Vile Darkness, but he was just kind of an advanced ghast or something. In Libris Mortis, though, he suddenly got promoted to demigod status, making his stats in the BoVD laughably pathetic. Given that they don't reflect Doresain having divine ranks, however, it's safe to say that those aren't his actual (post-divinity) stats.

[herculesftw]

well, the best way to kill a god in my opinion is to first become a demi-god. Then manage to kill a lower deity, to gain their divine rank. Perhaps go lich and create a demi-lich. Both instances are relatively easy to accomplish.

[herculesftw]

You could use rituals to become a stronger race at a higher level. My cohort would be a thrall herd. I'd use a ritual to make him an illithid, and then an illithid savant. Use him to kill aboliths, to then use their ability of consuming aboliths to gain knowledge of killing deities since their knowledge goes so farrrrrr back they have to know of methods to use. We'd basically help each other become demi-gods. Regular race to start, then once we're high enough level, ritual to illithid, use method above, then we both become a lich/ and or one a vampire. Then Demi-lich and /or a vampire lord. Great way to gain worship. Start using fiends of blasphemy in our army, fiends of corruption and fiends of possesion.

[herculesftw]

pretty much new generation vecna/kas combo

[Phelix-Mu]

You could use rituals to become a stronger race at a higher level. My cohort would be a thrall herd. I'd use a ritual to make him an illithid, and then an illithid savant. Use him to kill aboliths, to then use their ability of consuming aboliths to gain knowledge of killing deities since their knowledge goes so farrrrrr back they have to know of methods to use. We'd basically help each other become demi-gods. Regular race to start, then once we're high enough level, ritual to illithid, use method above, then we both become a lich/ and or one a vampire. Then Demi-lich and /or a vampire lord. Great way to gain worship. Start using fiends of blasphemy in our army, fiends of corruption and fiends of possesion.

The bold sounds like an unsubstantiated assumption. Lots of very old knowledge sources will lack specific knowledge about a specific thing, especially rare and/or nonexistent knowledge like how to kill a deity (this is specifically the kind of knowledge that many gods would go to some lengths to erase...like, say, Vecna). The failure or success of this method is entirely down to the DM.

[herculesftw]

The fact that aboleths predate the gods, means they have been around for the destruction of all deities. And since their memories are all transferred to other aboleths that eat them, their history would be a great reference for how such deities were destroyed. Maybe they don't know of a 'kill god' method but I'm sure they know of MANY ways that would aid in destroying one. Just think of it as a fight video you get to watch as a boxer typically does prior to fighting his opponent. Regardless of the info for destroying deities, the info itself is invaluable.

[Immabozo]

I apologize if I missed something, because I did not read the who thread, but check out this thread I had a while ago about a seriously strong druid I made specifically for god hunting. DEATH TO THE GODS!!! (of D&D, please no 10D6 lightning bolt no save from god for blasphemy!) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264623)

[MirddinEmris]

Actually, as killing gods is a solid part of FR canon, i don't understand why many posters are saying that this is nigh impossible. Remember that gods of dnd is a little more than a very powerful mortals and there are many examples of non-divine-rank mortals successfully challenged gods and even killed them (though i don't think that bluntly going to their plane and butcher them because their stats are inferior would be interesting). As for some of their abilities, such as sensing danger, they are...VERY open to interpretation, so it's up to particular GM if players ideas will or will not work. I suggest that if players idea sound interesting enough, any reasonable GM will let it work.

[inuyasha]

hmm can you play pun pun?

[Coidzor]

Actually, as killing gods is a solid part of FR canon, i don't understand why many posters are saying that this is nigh impossible. Remember that gods of dnd is a little more than a very powerful mortals and there are many examples of non-divine-rank mortals successfully challenged gods and even killed them (though i don't think that bluntly going to their plane and butcher them because their stats are inferior would be interesting). As for some of their abilities, such as sensing danger, they are...VERY open to interpretation, so it's up to particular GM if players ideas will or will not work. I suggest that if players idea sound interesting enough, any reasonable GM will let it work.

My recollection is that most of those were due to DM FiatWord of Corporate GodLord Ao maguffining it up for the Time of Troubles/Avatar Crisis/Godswar or just God-On-God Murderfacing.

[Arundel]

Actually, as killing gods is a solid part of FR canon, i don't understand why many posters are saying that this is nigh impossible. Remember that gods of dnd is a little more than a very powerful mortals and there are many examples of non-divine-rank mortals successfully challenged gods and even killed them (though i don't think that bluntly going to their plane and butcher them because their stats are inferior would be interesting). As for some of their abilities, such as sensing danger, they are...VERY open to interpretation, so it's up to particular GM if players ideas will or will not work. I suggest that if players idea sound interesting enough, any reasonable GM will let it work.

Well, like I said several pages ago, the fluff does not match the crunch. There are gods who have, as an EXPLICIT POWER, the ability to decide you die (and this isn't even the scariest divine ability).

Immediately.

No saves.

No Questions.

[Cirrylius]

Use your 20 levels of Concentration as a class skill to kill the god-rendered-mortal with one blow via Greater Insightful Strike.

Would that be enough to take down a 20-60 HD Outsider?

[MirddinEmris]

My recollection is that most of those were due to DM FiatWord of Corporate GodLord Ao maguffining it up for the Time of Troubles/Avatar Crisis/Godswar or just God-On-God Murderfacing.

Not only. Remember guys like Karsus (wizard who killed Mistra, goddess of magic) and such. While it isn't easy thing to do, it is possible. I recommend to kill a couple of weakest gods and acquire divine ranks yourself, then proceed to more strong deities.

[Arkturas]

Or just erase them from the world via Elven High Magic.

[Feralventas]

Not only. Remember guys like Karsus (wizard who killed Mistra, goddess of magic) and such. While it isn't easy thing to do, it is possible. I recommend to kill a couple of weakest gods and acquire divine ranks yourself, then proceed to more strong deities.

Take care that when you hunt monsters, you do not become them yourself.

Also Mystra tends to die a lot. She croaked again at the end of 3.5 going into 4th edition, along with Helm IIRC, in a few of the Forgotten Realms books released at the time, thus causing the Spell Plague.

Though it's also worth mentioning that while they used a deific artifact to do the deed, it was still a semi-mortal shadow-caster doing it.

[Flickerdart]

Well, like I said several pages ago, the fluff does not match the crunch. There are gods who have, as an EXPLICIT POWER, the ability to decide you die (and this isn't even the scariest divine ability).

Immediately.

No saves.

No Questions.
Except it's described to work as destruction, which is a [Death] effect and trivial to get immunity to. It also only works on mortals, so any means of immortality makes you immune. Any deities with DR5 of lower can't get access to it, either.

[maximus25]

People keep citing this '6 months of prep time' thing.

If I decide, right now, to go kill a god, they will have NO warning whatsoever. As long as it isn't planned, they won't know about it for another six months.


If I decide to kill a god, they won't get the warning until six months from now. So I plan to kill them in 3 months.

[Cirrylius]

If I decide, right now, to go kill a god, they will have NO warning whatsoever. As long as it isn't planned, they won't know about it for another six months.
Isn't that how they made the precog power in Twilight more manageable? By saying "oh, well, I haven't actually DECIDED to do anything YET, I'm just making plans for if I DO decide".



If I decide to kill a god, they won't get the warning until six months from now. So I plan to kill them in 3 months.
That's not how it works. They get the warning six months before the event; it's not a six month delay to their omniscience.

Here's an example. Say it's month five in your calendar, and you decide to make plans to kill Moradin in three months. When you burst into his court on month eight, you'll find everybody standing around waiting for you, with a calendar on the wall marking down days from month two, six months prior to today, and three months before you even made the decision to attack. If it's someone like Vecna, with Secrets in his portfolio, then he gets notice from six months before you start plotting, in month... -2, I guess.

Edit: It's not six months for intermediate deities, is it? It's some other number:smallannoyed:

[Animastryfe]

What is the basis for assuming that low optimization in build and statistics necessarily means low optimization in behavior? From a fluff-based view based on statistics, most gods seem to have high enough mental abilities that they would be as mentally superior to humans as humans are to, say, ducks.

[Flickerdart]

What is the basis for assuming that low optimization in build and statistics necessarily means low optimization in behavior?
There's only so much optimized behaviour you can engage in when your gear is crap and you have so many useless feats and levels.

[maximus25]

Isn't that how they made the precog power in Twilight more manageable? By saying "oh, well, I haven't actually DECIDED to do anything YET, I'm just making plans for if I DO decide".


That's not how it works. They get the warning six months before the event; it's not a six month delay to their omniscience.

Here's an example. Say it's month five in your calendar, and you decide to make plans to kill Moradin in three months. When you burst into his court on month eight, you'll find everybody standing around waiting for you, with a calendar on the wall marking down days from month two, six months prior to today, and three months before you even made the decision to attack. If it's someone like Vecna, with Secrets in his portfolio, then he gets notice from six months before you start plotting, in month... -2, I guess.

Edit: It's not six months for intermediate deities, is it? It's some other number:smallannoyed:

So if I decide to kill Moradin in 3 months, then 3 months ago he knew that 3 months from then I was going to plan to kill him 6 months from then?

That's really confusing.

[Flickerdart]

So what you're saying is, when a god discovers that he knows that another god knows that he will declare war on that god, now he has to do it, even though he didn't himself know that he was going to do it yet?

[Coidzor]

Take care that when you hunt monsters, you do not become them yourself.

Also Mystra tends to die a lot. She croaked again at the end of 3.5 going into 4th edition, along with Helm IIRC, in a few of the Forgotten Realms books released at the time, thus causing the Spell Plague.

Though it's also worth mentioning that while they used a deific artifact to do the deed, it was still a semi-mortal shadow-caster doing it.

Huh? I'd thought Cyric was the one what ganked Mystra most recently. :smallconfused:

I can't recall, was Mystryl's death and Karsus's Folly actually supposed to have set off 1e -> 2e or was that just retconning given the tradition that did get established from 2e>3e>4e?

[otakumick]

1. Ice Assassin Punpun
2. Fusion Ice Assassin
3. Astral Seed Shuffle
4. Create Hyper Time Plane
5. Ascend further(for the halibut)
6. ??????
7. Profit
8. Kill the gods without paying attention
9. Decide to kill the gods

[Karnith]

Huh? I'd thought Cyric was the one what ganked Mystra most recently. :smallconfused:

I can't recall, was Mystryl's death and Karsus's Folly actually supposed to have set off 1e -> 2e or was that just retconning given the tradition that did get established from 2e>3e>4e?
I'm pretty sure that the Time of Troubles was the in-universe cover for the transition from 1e to 2e (hence magic getting all wonky for a while and then working differently).

[Bonzai]

Red Wizard Necromancer with maxed out True Speech. Max out your Circle Magic and Heighten the Unname spell as high as it goes to pump up your DC and max out your caster level for over coming spell resistance. Find one a deity that isn't flat out immune to Necromancy, and Unname them. There could be some DM fiat with the ritual of re-naming. If you re-name yourself, then it could be interpreted that you are re-creating your essence. If that is the case, then the you that exists after the ritual is different from the one before, so portfolio sense won't see you until after you undergo the ritual as that is the version of you that actually attacks them (confused yet?). This gives you time to prepare without pre-preemptive retaliation.

[Cirrylius]

So what you're saying is, when a god discovers that he knows that another god knows that he will declare war on that god, now he has to do it, even though he didn't himself know that he was going to do it yet?

I was purposefully not addressing god v god recursive precognition. I'd prefer my brain to stay on the inside of my skull:smallannoyed:

[MirddinEmris]

I'm pretty sure that the Time of Troubles was the in-universe cover for the transition from 1e to 2e (hence magic getting all wonky for a while and then working differently).

Sure you mean "from 2e to 3e"? Karsus's Folly was transition from 1e to 2e (no spells with level more than 9 etc)

[Karnith]

Sure you mean "from 2e to 3e"? Karsus's Folly was transition from 1e to 2e (no spells with level more than 9 etc)
Well, given that the Time of Troubles/Avatar Trilogy books were written circa 1989, or about 11 years before 3.0 was released and at roughly the same time that 2e was released, I'd find it hard to believe that the Time of Troubles covered 2e to 3e. And I had always assumed that Karsus' Folly was a retcon.

EDIT: I will freely admit, however, that I don't know what the in-universe justification for 1e->2e was. I was merely guessing based on my limited knowledge of the Realms and the fact that the Time of Troubles shook up the Realms at the same time that a new edition was being released.

[kardar233]

I thought Die Vecna Die! was the in-universe justification for 2e->3e.

[Karnith]

I thought Die Vecna Die! was the in-universe justification for 2e->3e.Well, it's not the Forgotten Realms-specific explanation (as far as I'm aware), but yes.