Merging TWF and some ranged feats

[Qc Storm]

A few days ago, I brought up the possibility of merging the TWF feat line together, allowing you to make BAB attacks with your off-hand as long as you have basic TWF and the required dex.

However, my group and I do not use much homebrew, and this idea brought a lot of argumentation and concerns (but mostly indifference).

The ranger in our group brought up the fact that Ranged is also quite a feat drain, often with little returns. His character is more optimized than the TWF user, so I'm not really worried about him, but he has a point.

I will most likely forget about this whole fiasco, but I'm still interested about how you guys would "fix" ranged feats.

[Gavinfoxx]

Merging most of the low power / high investment feat chains into one feat is probably a good idea in general...

But if you are going to start homebrewing 3.5e to be more balanced, consider using one of the existing homebrew options, or replacement systems that are more balanced in general? Here's a modified response I made in an other thread about replacement systems...



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http://www.ruleofcool.com/
http://www.ruleofcool.com/get-the-game/
https://s3.amazonaws.com/det_1/Legend.pdf <-- this is the actual link to it!
http://www.ruleofcool.com/donation-thresholds/ <-- some bonus content
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47651526/LCGb.html <-- an online character generator

I would consider Pathfinder 3.55, Trailblazer 3.60, True20 3.65, Frank & K Tomes 3.65, Fantasycraft 3.70, and Legend 3.75, as far as the 'number of things fixed' goes...

Other good things to do is use mutants and masterminds 2e to write up D&D-esque characters, a la:
http://greywulf.net/2011/06/03/mutants-and-dragons-third-edition/

Fantasycraft is found here:
http://www.crafty-games.com/node/348

Trailblazer is found here:
http://badaxegames.com/

The Frank & K tomes are here:
https://sites.google.com/site/middendorfproject/frankpdf

True20 is here:
http://true20.com/

Good luck!

Again, if free content is important, LOOK UP LEGEND!! It is, as far as I can tell, superior in all ways to Pathfinder.

[Glimbur]

A quick and dirty patch to ranged is to get rid of Point Blank Shot. It's a small and situational bonus, so it primarily serves as a feat to say "I want to do ranged combat". Pitch it and ranged builds are +1 feat.

Of course, it is far from a complete fix, but it's something.

[KillianHawkeye]

It sounds like a good idea to combine certain feats, but folding them all into a single feat might be too much of a simplification. If I were to do this, I'd probably combine Two-Weapon Fighting with Two-Weapon Defense, then make another feat that combines all of the other TWF and TWD feats into one.

Similarly, combining Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot into a single feat just makes damn good sense.

[Qc Storm]

Merging most of the low power / high investment feat chains into one feat is probably a good idea in general...

But if you are going to start homebrewing 3.5e to be more balanced, consider using one of the existing homebrew options, or replacement systems that are more balanced in general? Here's a modified response I made in an other thread about replacement systems...

Not really looking for a new system, but if they have good fixes for such problems, you could share them.

Merging Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot seem like a good start.

[Gavinfoxx]

The question is, 'if you want to make a viable archer/two weapon fighter, what feats do you actually need'?

It's quite a few feats, actually!

Rapid Shot style:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Improved Rapid Shot
Woodland Archer

Throwing Style:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Far Shot
Quick Draw
Power Attack
Brutal Throw
Power Throw

Mounted Archery:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery
Improved Mounted Archery
Mounted Fighting

Sniping:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Dead Eye
Exotic Weapon Proficiency Great Crossbow
Able Sniper
Concealed Ambush
Rapid Reload
Crossbow Sniper
Darkstalker
Sharp-Shooting
Weapon Focus Great Crossbow
Woodland Archer
Bowslinger
Far Shot
Coordinated Shot
Plunging Shot

Manyshot style:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Greater Manyshot

Ranged Maneuvers style:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Ranged Pin
Ranged Sunder
Combat Reflexes
Ranged Threat
Ranged Disarm
Defensive Archery
Ready Shot


Two weapon fighting:
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Dual Strike
Improved Two Weapon Defense
Greater Two Weapon Defense
Combat Reflexes
Two Weapon Attack of Opportunity
Two Weapon Pounce
Two Weapon Rend

[KillianHawkeye]

I don't think you actually NEED all of those, though.

[Gavinfoxx]

True. But the fact is, most of these feats are so very very crappy, that if you gave out a huge number of them for free to everyone, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference! Hell, if you gave any melee character of mine most every one of those feats, they would still be very likely to ignore them and just power attack and Improved Trip with a Guisarme or Spiked Chain and Charge and Shock Trooper and stuff... because even if you arbitrarily have basically all these feats, it still isn't generally worth it to use those combat styles as an 'all the time' thing.... because the innate combat styles are really, really weak, and these feats mitigate that problem to a very small amount.

[Randomguy]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12329132#post12329132) is a thread in the homebrew forum on the topic of TWF.

Maybe the problem isn't with any particular line of feats, but with the existence of feat chains? They kind of give mundane characters a raw deal. If a mundane character wants to fight unarmed, or be a grappler, or a tripper, or fight with two weapons, or be a good archer, then they've got to sink almost all of their feats to do that with almost no room for versatility. Meanwhile, the best feats for casters are usually standalone feats with either no prereqs or very easy prereqs.

As a proposed fix for feat chains in general, to give mundanes some nice things:

If a character takes a feat that is a prerequisite for another feat, such as point blank shot, then from that point on, whenever he levels up, he can take any feat with that feat as a prerequisite as a bonus feat, provided he meets all other prerequisites. The character is limited to one such bonus feat per level per feat chain.
For example, if a human fighter takes both Point Blank Shot and Two Weapon Fighting at level 1, then at level 2, in addition to his fighter bonus feat, he would gain one bonus feat with TWF as a prerequisite and one bonus feat with Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite.
The character is not prevented from taking additional feats with Point Blank Shot or Two Weapon Fighting normally. For example, if the above human fighter wanted both Two Weapon Defence and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting at level 2, then he could take one as a fighter bonus feat and the other as a feat chain Bonus Feat.

Note: This only applies to feats that have a particular feat as a prerequisite. For example, a wizard that takes Extend Spell at level 1 would not qualify to receive a bonus feat that has "Any Metamagic Feat" as a prerequisite, but would qualify to receive a feat that specified Extend Spell, such as Persistent Spell.

[Greenish]

Basically the only two-weapon fighting feat I'd take is the basic TWF, with OTWF if applicable (but rather EWP for Dragonsplits or the PF weapon with same functionality). ITWF I might consider if I had the Dex, a free feat, and a great attack modifier (and the Gloves of Balanced Hand weren't available).

[Edit]: And hey, who hasn't redone TWF (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210769)?