PF: Skills Character

[Man With Dog]

Got a little game going on Monday.
As a break from fighters and such roles I am taking a skills character.
Or at least something along those lines.
I am allowed any basic races along eith the Cat Folk - which seems ideal for the Ninja class specifically.

I was just wondering if anyone had tips - using the basic books and mentioned above on making the ideal skills character. Is Ninja better than rogue? Do the stat plusses help - is something else ultimately better. 25pt buy if that alters anyones views but any thoughts taken and appreciated.

Starting at level 2 and not sure how long it will last so quicker the impact the better

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Ninja is going to be a little better, especially in combat, though it'll miss out on trapfinding (which may or may not be all that important) in exchange for poison use (which is pretty much a total waste, if you ask me). You get light steps in exchange for evasion, which is pretty much a wash, since they're both situational. Ninja tricks are generally better than rogue tricks, but both classes can take tricks from the other list, so the big difference is going to be that rogues waste a trick getting a ki pool, while ninja start with one.

Although, a wizard or witch with the right traits can also make a more-than-capable skill-user, if you'd be interested in something a little more unorthodox.

[Ravenica]

ninja is slightly better in combat and alot less versatile than rogue

ideally you would probably be better off with a vivisectionist alchemist or a bard build for a skills character for both combat capability and versatility

[Paul H]

Hi

Or just go Urban Ranger (Ranger Archetype from APG)

Loads skill points, (Inc Disable Device), can disable Magic Traps from Lvl 3 onwards. Full BAB, Martial Wpns etc. Plus the usual Ranger stuff.

Thanks
Paul H

[Slipperychicken]

I am allowed any basic races along eith the Cat Folk - which seems ideal for the Ninja class specifically.

I could see an argument for it if you took Climber and possibly Cat's Claws (you'll still want to get real weapons so they can bypass DR and get enchanted, unless you were planning on an Unarmed Strike build, in which case I think you can combine them). The climb speed is cool and could be very helpful for scouting/maneuvering at low levels (before people start flying, teleporting, etc) depending on the environment. Just see about grabbing some Adamantine Pitons in case you start running into perfectly flat featureless walls.

If it's just skillpoints you want, Human is the way to go. I would say put the racial ability bonus into Int, but if you're using point-buy, it's more efficient to put it into your highest attribute (most likely going to be Dex) to conserve points.

Gnome is another option, simply because of Bewildering Koan, which SKR says (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8dmh/discuss&page=2?Pathfinder-Companion-Gnomes-of-Golarion#72) makes the target lose his entire turn.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's hard to be a "skills character" in PF, when the difference between class skill and not class skill is only a +3 bonus, and not having something as a class skill just means you can get a trait to gain it as a class skill and a +1 trait bonus on it (so, net +4) and actually end up better than the guy who had it on his class list. Sure, he can take a trait, too, but he'd only be getting a +1 out of it...not worth it*.

Generally, you're best off focusing on one or two ability scores, maxing the ever loving hell out of them, and being an expert in the skills associated with those scores. Which means multiple ability dependent classes like rogue are actually pretty bad at the skills-man game.

If you do want to rock skills, though, I do have a suggestion.
Be a Synthesist Summoner.
They can get "Skilled" for only 1 evo point for a whopping +8 racial bonus (note in PF racial boni stack, so you could choose Perception, be a Half-Elf, and net a +10 racial perception bonus, for example) to any skill you want, right from 1st level. And you can select it for multiple skills. Further...the suit replaces your physical scores, allowing you to focus on the mental ones and be decent to high in all ability scores. While Human is tempting for more skill points, I strongly suggest being Half-Elf for the favored class bonus. +1 evo point per 4 levels will pay off handsomely in time.

*The trait system is massively flawed on every possible level, but I find this to be especially galling. Would it have really been unbalancing to say, "if it's already a class skill, you instead get a +2 trait bonus"? Or something? Anything at all to make the traits still decent for those that have the skill already?

[Praystation]

For a one shot always going to be low - mid level character, doesnt a skill set always look favourably on Rogues or Ninja's for the good ol' Perception, Acrobatics and Stealth?
Half elf for the boost in the right area - max out your dex and take weapon finesse (or the rogue thinga for finesse)

Seems logical but I am also not the best versed in PF.

I did think abot Summoner / Rogue but then looking at how it would gimp after a level or two is bad

[Paul H]

Hi

Synthesist Summoner is Ok, I used to have one in PFS before they banned it. Too many players were min/maxin & having 7's in their Physical stat scores, so they can max out their mental ones.

Problem with that is if your 'body armour' is dispelled, it's normally an auto kill.

As for Traits - they're there for flavour, not to max out your character. Effectively you're gaining two half-feats for free. So it's hardly flawed at all.

You're already getting more feats, more powerful characters already, plus you gain the favoured class bonus you mentioned.

Lastly, there are 'skills' characters in PF. Some classes only get 2 skill points/lvl (plus Fav Class Bonus plus Int mod), some get 8. Then there is the fact that some skills cannot be used untrained.

But you're right about Synthesists. Used correctly they are powerful. Just don't be tempted to make your physical abilities 'dump stats'.

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: Synthesist with 2 lvls of Paladin is an awesome combo

[Praystation]

Half-Ling Urban Ranger was also suggested.
Taking the Fleet of Foot side of things.

I was tempted to look at the Half Elf side of things as they dont lose too much (+1 to hit and +1 AC) and they keep their damage up.

But i cant help thinking there is something i'm missing with the Rogue or Ninja - surely they have to be the best skills class... right? In terms of all the acrobatics, stealth and perception skill usage.

25pt buy gives me decent stats dex at the right level and all that.

I am very open to others peoples thoughts and would love to see them.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Problem with that is if your 'body armour' is dispelled, it's normally an auto kill.

There's a spell to re-summon the eidolon as a standard action. The real scare is getting it banished for 24 hours or something. Even then, you have the (presumably untouched to this point and primed for nova-ing) summoning class feature to fall back on at that point.

In any case, OP wanted a skill guy, not someone who's amazing in combat. Synth can be both, but doesn't have to be. I'm not sure what getting dispelled in combat has to do with being a skills guy.


As for Traits - they're there for flavour, not to max out your character. Effectively you're gaining two half-feats for free. So it's hardly flawed at all.

This entire statement... contradicts itself...so hard... People don't generally spend their feats on "flavor", they expect a benefit. Same goes for half-feats. Just because they're free doesn't mean you stop caring about gaining stuff. As long as the option is there, you take it. So yes, traits are deeply flawed. Not only do they fail* to be about flavor and not min-maxing (the categorizations have no rhyme or reason, the entire system is built on author fiat), they also are wildly imbalanced with each other. Some are better than feats or give options no feat does (Defensive Strategist, Lessons of Chaldira, Blade of Mercy, the PFS Fighter trait, Tusked [unlike Razortusk feat, is available to anyone via Adopted], Magical Lineage, both traits that reduce metamagic adjustment by -1 level for a spell, etc...). Some are clearly worse than half a feat or otherwise useless (don't know any from memory, why would I commit such things to memory?). The power range is staggering. If Paizo wanted to make traits purely a flavor thing, they did absolutely every possible thing they could to not accomplish that goal.

*Ironically, 3E's traits were actually decent for this, as they only gave very tiny bonuses in return for tiny penalties, and were actually related mechanically to their fluff. While as in PF, worshipping the god of tactics somehow gives you free Uncanny Dodge, but no sort of combat training trait will do so. Likewise for worshipping the sun goddess teaching you to slash for nonlethal w/o having to go all reversed blade Kenshin style.


You're already getting more feats, more powerful characters already, plus you gain the favoured class bonus you mentioned.

Casters are getting more feats. Martials are also spending more feats and waiting longer for things. Again, why does this matter? Because PF gave us some extra free crap, we're supposed to intentionally avoid other free crap that would be beneficial?


Lastly, there are 'skills' characters in PF. Some classes only get 2 skill points/lvl (plus Fav Class Bonus plus Int mod), some get 8. Then there is the fact that some skills cannot be used untrained.

All skills cost the same to put a rank in, though. And the base number plus int bonus is what ultimately matters, not just the base number. A rogue needs dex, con, some wis to cover his infamously bad will save, and some str and maybe cha for all those social skills. He is not going to be able to afford a high int. A Wizard wants to start with Int 20 and raise it up as much as possible. He may only have a base of 2, but by mid levels, he will equal or exceed the rogue for sheer number of skill points. Just as an example.
What should matter is how high you can get your skill bonus and any additional options/applications you have for a skill, not the number of skills you can be mediocre / above average in.


But you're right about Synthesists. Used correctly they are powerful. Just don't be tempted to make your physical abilities 'dump stats'.

Certainly not Con, at least. Nothing needs to be higher than 12 and str can totally be dumped, though.