No cheese, powerful at low levels build?

[_flint_]

In my current group, every encounter ends in one of two ways. either A) our beguiler charms everyone and generally steals the show or B) we run away. I just want to bathe in the gore of my enemies and seeing as nobody's past 3rd level right now, I was wondering if any of you could point me to a build that can kill things quickly and efficiently before i'm obligated to ignore them. This is mostly for intellectual purposes seeing as i'm not planning on rerolling any time soon, but it's good to learn. Whadda ya got?

Addendum: My DM is quick to nerf of disallow things he perceives as too powerful. The build itself would in a perfect world contain no cheese. He's already significantly heavily nerfed ToB. Nothing "evil" or "monster-y" either :smallmad:

[Greenish]

Barbarian.

[Callin]

True a Lion Totem Barb with Whirling Frenzy. I did that with Tripping and almost ended the campaign by charging and knocking down and then free attacking the BBEG and left him at 3 HPs. He teleported out quick.

[Rukia]

In my current group, every encounter ends in one of two ways. either A) our beguiler charms everyone and generally steals the show or B) we run away. I just want to bathe in the gore of my enemies and seeing as nobody's past 3rd level right now, I was wondering if any of you could point me to a build that can kill things quickly and efficiently before i'm obligated to ignore them. This is mostly for intellectual purposes seeing as i'm not planning on rerolling any time soon, but it's good to learn. Whadda ya got?

Addendum: My DM is quick to nerf of disallow things he perceives as too powerful. The build itself would in a perfect world contain no cheese. He's already significantly heavily nerfed ToB. Nothing "evil" or "monster-y" either :smallmad:

Just play a Druid and call it a day. If your DM thinks "cheesy" is taking different feats and classes from splat books then just go "core only". You can't get much more powerful at low levels than a simple Druid build. Just send in your animal companion and start summoning creatures. After awhile that Warblade won't seem quite so powerful and he may come to his senses.

At low levels some melee classes can seem overpowered, but by level 5 the balance shifts and casters start to gain ground. DM's that haven't played at mid levels don't understand this so they start nerfing melee for the wrong reasons while their true threats remain untouched. By level 10 a ToB class is the least of any DM's worries with Wizards, Clerics, Druids and other casters are around.

[ArcturusV]

Depends on the definition of "Cheese". At level 3 a lot of the "Magic Bullet" low level spells are still viable. Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, Web is coming online.

But a well built general Charge and Bash Fighter or Barbarian should be perfectly viable and coming into it's own at that point.

[_flint_]

Just play a Druid and call it a day. If your DM thinks "cheesy" is taking different feats and classes from splat books then just go "core only". You can't get much more powerful at low levels than a simple Druid build. Just send in your animal companion and start summoning creatures. After awhile that Warblade won't seem quite so powerful and he may come to his senses.

At low levels some melee classes can seem overpowered, but by level 5 the balance shifts and casters start to gain ground. DM's that haven't played at mid levels don't understand this so they start nerfing melee for the wrong reasons while their true threats remain untouched. By level 10 a ToB class is the least of any DM's worries with Wizards, Clerics, Druids and other casters are around.

I like the way you think. My first thought was druid as well, but we already have one of those as well as a DMPC who's probably one.


Depends on the definition of "Cheese". At level 3 a lot of the "Magic Bullet" low level spells are still viable. Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, Web is coming online.

But a well built general Charge and Bash Fighter or Barbarian should be perfectly viable and coming into it's own at that point.

No, i'm talking healing via drowning or thousands of damage by falling on someone. Or pun-pun. you know, things that are obligatory in low-level optimization threads unless otherwise mentioned

[ArcturusV]

Fair enough. Just sayin' that Cheese was possibly a matter of taste. For example, I've had DMs who thought it was "Cheesy" that I could Destroy Undead with a Cleric (... you negated an entire encounter with just one ability? HAX!), or using stuff like Cause Fear or Sleep to Coup de Grace.

[Rukia]

I like the way you think. My first thought was druid as well, but we already have one of those as well as a DMPC who's probably one.



No, i'm talking healing via drowning or thousands of damage by falling on someone. Or pun-pun. you know, things that are obligatory in low-level optimization threads unless otherwise mentioned

I'd just play a battlefield control wizard. You don't even have to optimize that much. Just go conjuration specialist, trade out scribe scroll for combat initiative, give up your familiar for abrubt jaunt, etc.. Boost your DC's as much as possible and concentrate on the basics like grease, glitterdust, colorspray, web, etc.. Caste haste and other buffs on the party when required. You can completely trivialize encounters without even doing a single point of damage and all of those spells are core so it'd be hard for him to complain too much.

Some DM's seem to have a problem with big damage numbers even though that is not the end all be it of power in D&D. Who cares if the Barbarian can do 100 damage on a full attack, he can only do it once per round and if the enemy has 20hp then the rest was meaningless. Meanwhile the Wizard has blinded/webbed/greased the other 5 enemies with a standard action and is now having a cup of tea while the party mops up.

[Shining Wrath]

Had he not nerfed ToB, the one word answer is "Warblade". Hard to start faster than full BAB + D12 HD + stances + maneuvers.

The fastest starter might be Barbarian.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Start with Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), add Dragonborn (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1), then add Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e). You lose the race of water and orc traits, but keep the ability score adjustments and land/swim speeds. Dragonborn gets you a breath attack, which you can combine with the feat Entangling Exhalation to severely debuff every opponent. Mineral Warrior gives you more ability score bonuses, natural armor, damage reduction, and a burrow speed. Buy off the level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) from mineral warrior at your 3rd character level (ECL 4). An alternative to Dragonborn + Mineral Warrior would be Lolth-Touched from MMIV, but it changes your alignment to Chaotic Evil. Then there's Half-Minotaur, which is often considered cheese all by itself due to granting +12 Str among other benefits for only a +1 LA.

From there go with whatever combination of combat classes you want. You can't really go wrong with two levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) with the Lion Spirit and Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) ACFs. Pick up Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) and get a free hit out of Improved Trip when you use it.

Consider taking EWP: Ritiik, a weapon from Frostburn, instead of Knock-Down. When you hit with it the opponent must make a Reflex save with a DC based on the damage dealt, or the weapon is lodged in them. You get a free trip attempt on anyone that fails this save, and again Improved Trip gives you a free hit. The ritiik is still lodged in the opponent after this, they can try to remove it carefully with considerable effort, otherwise extracting it deals damage to the target equal to the initial hit that got it stuck in the first place. It doesn't make any mention that extracting it without trying to avoid the extra damage takes any more effort than retracting a weapon from any other type of attack, so it basically deals each attacks' damage twice with no additional effort on your part.

[Postmodernist]

Depending on your definition of cheese, you might want to look here. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861106/Compilation_of_Low_Level_builds)

[Sith_Happens]

In my current group, every encounter ends in one of two ways. either A) our beguiler charms everyone and generally steals the show or B) we run away.


Addendum: My DM is quick to nerf of disallow things he perceives as too powerful. The build itself would in a perfect world contain no cheese. He's already significantly heavily nerfed ToB. Nothing "evil" or "monster-y" either :smallmad:

Your DM's idea of "too powerful" seems to be a bit suspect.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Your DM's idea of "too powerful" seems to be a bit suspect.
To be fair, melee at low-levels is kind of scary already-- everyone's playing rocket tag with low HP totals, and melee's got the biggest rockets (greatswords and trips). Now you start adding nice things to that? On top of an already top-tier chassis? Warblades are scary when compared to unoptimized blaster casters and healbot clerics.

I'll second Callin's Lion Totem barbarian. Take Extra Rage and kill everything forever.

[Sith_Happens]

To be fair, melee at low-levels is kind of scary already-- everyone's playing rocket tag with low HP totals, and melee's got the biggest rockets (greatswords and trips). Now you start adding nice things to that? On top of an already top-tier chassis? Warblades are scary when compared to unoptimized blaster casters and healbot clerics.

What about compared to "the beguiler tends to just charm everything and call it a day?" Because that specifically is the juxtaposition I was making.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What about compared to "the beguiler tends to just charm everything and call it a day?" Because that specifically is the juxtaposition I was making.
True. I didn't say the GM was right.

[animewatcha]

"Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming. "

taken from charm person

Attack it anyway or the GM can use the 'spoken language' thing for when it comes to 'commands.'

[koboldish]

Psshhh, silly talky Beguiler man got you down? Play a good, solid, dwarven barbarian with a big axe. Kill stuff before it kills you. No problems to be had. I would suggest frenzied berserker, although I don't have the ToB yet for better options.

[A_S]

I personally think Duskblades are outstanding at low levels, and level 3 is probably the peak of their performance. At that level, you have:
-A fighter's BAB and martial weapon proficiency.
-At least one nice channelable blast spell for dealing big hits (and no iteratives to lose while channeling). I recommend Shocking Grasp.
-Color Spray (which hasn't started to fall off in effectiveness yet) for ending encounters.
-The ability to cast spells in light armor.
-The same HP as a cleric (d8).

[LTwerewolf]

Just because they're charmed doesn't mean you can't still hack their heads off.

[Rukia]

The problem I see is that anything that is remotely optimized is going to be considered "too powerful". A simple Dwarf Barbarian that takes whirling frenzy and spirit lion totem will probably be considered "broken" due to being able to double attack at the end of a charge at level 1 and would likely kill just about anything it encountered. Even a core only tripping build would likely garner some harsh scrutiny from the DM due to how powerful it may seem under the right circumstances.

The DM sounds like the "It's ok for wizards to be powerful because well.. they're Wizards. But melee can't have anything nice". It's never a good idea to try and break a game to prove a point, but in all honesty I'd just go caster. If the DM is ok with the Beguiler then a solid Wizard would likely be fine and probably more fun than constantly getting some "supposed" powerful melee class neutered.

[Randomguy]

Try keeping things simple and core. Barbarian 1/Fighter 2, with Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack and EWP spiked chain.

[Humble Master]

For raw damage I would say Warblade or Lion Totem Barbarian. Both can dish out a lot of damage very quickly. Granted neither are core and the Lion Totem might be considered slightly cheesy but personally as a DM I try to give melee classes every chance they can get.

[CIDE]

At least your DM (like one of mine) doesn't think monks (alongside Psionics and ToB) are overpowered....



Side note: He thinks any one of the ToB classes could take an set of equal leveled Cleric+Wizard+Druid all at once. Just to give you guys an idea. When some of the other party members agree though there is no changing their minds.

[Sith_Happens]

At least your DM (like one of mine) doesn't think monks (alongside Psionics and ToB) are overpowered....

Side note: He thinks any one of the ToB classes could take an set of equal leveled Cleric+Wizard+Druid all at once. Just to give you guys an idea. When some of the other party members agree though there is no changing their minds.

Of course there is: You make them put their money where their mouths are.:smallamused:

[Malroth]

At least your DM (like one of mine) doesn't think monks (alongside Psionics and ToB) are overpowered....



Side note: He thinks any one of the ToB classes could take an set of equal leveled Cleric+Wizard+Druid all at once. Just to give you guys an idea. When some of the other party members agree though there is no changing their minds.

well i'd actually put money on the warblade from lvs 2 till 6 and the casters would still have to do some work on lvs 7 and 8. 9+ though any of the full casters win buttons catch up and they'd win without optmization.

[Eslin]

Yeah, but all at once? I mean, even one on one I'd put the money on the tier 1 classes even between 2 and 6, but all three at once? Entangle, doom, grease, hold person, obscuring mist, web.

[limejuicepowder]

well i'd actually put money on the warblade from lvs 2 till 6 and the casters would still have to do some work on lvs 7 and 8. 9+ though any of the full casters win buttons catch up and they'd win without optmization.

Even a warblade would have zero chance - 3 on 1 is insurmountable due to the action economy. Each of his enemies have save-or-lose spells, and far greater ranged abilities. Even if the t1 players did something as silly and basic like "throw the cleric to the wolves while the other two blast," it would end in defeat for the warblade.

Alternatively, a decently OP-d 5th level wizard wouldn't have much trouble taking on a equal level warblade.

To the OP: my original thought was barb; even taking only basic barb things is very good at those levels. Power attack + cleave + extra rage = lots of win. If the party really is just running away from any enemy the beguiler can't charm or trick, there's a very good argument to be made that the party NEEDS a stalwart damage dealer. Perhaps even mention that you aren't having much fun standing around while the beguiler does his thing, and you'd like to have a contributing character that won't step on any toes (if the beguiler can't do it, a giant ax swung with cruel intentions can).

However, if the DM really is in the camp of "mundanes can't have nice things" and will become outraged by 20-40 damage/round, then I recommend a minion-based spell caster, like dread necromancer, spirit shaman, or conjurer wizard. This should get around the DM's mundane-hate, as well as provide a source of damage-dealing and damage-taking - again, something that won't make the beguiler or other party members irrelevant, but still covers a niche the party really needs.

[Amphetryon]

Dragonborn (for wings or a breath weapon) Mongrelfolk Barbarian. 1st level: Power Attack. 3rd level: Extra Rage.

[Evard]

Like 2e, 4e, and Incarnum, ToB is just not undertsood by a multitude of 3.e players. (Ok so incarnum isn't completely understood by 97% of the people who use it :smallbiggrin: )

I know people who play high level casters in 3.5/Pathfinder who think ToB is broken along with Incarnum... One player admited that she would walk out on a game that included incarnum (which is funny cause almost all my feats are incarnum and yeah... she has no problem with my character's abilities).

What I've noticed is that people get into their groove and own little world and can't see anything beyond it. When something threatens their view of D&D they either shut it out or find reasons to hate it (its to troublesome, to broken, fluff doesn't make sense).

But hey maybe I'm wrong and Monks/Fighters/Soulborn are really really awesome?