Build Help: Draconic Sorceror Gish(finished, let it die)

[Magnera]

Alrighty folks, so my older brother is having problems with building a his character, mostly power reasons honestly. The lucky B%@%!$* got an incredible roll on his stats. (The dice gods favored all of us that day actually
18/14/14/14/18/18.)

Yes he is stuck as a half-elf sorcerer so he cant change back. We are all currently level 7 and the DM is letting us rebuild our characters because of 2 very very close TPK's.

In my mind, I am thinking of going Battle Sorc5/Dragon Disciple2 along with the Arcane Strike feat. The DM ruled that DD improves spell casting as 7/10, not what it actually says.

He is SUPER interested in the Draconic Heritage line of spells and wishes to become as 'dragon-like as possible'. The problem lies in the fact that the Draconic Heritage line is very weak and I wish to find a different path for him.

My request, the playground assists me in building him into the mighty draconian gish he wants to be via almost any method possible. The books are just about all of them but no dragon magazine or web enhancements.
(I.E Spells, Feats, Classes, Prcs... all that jazz!)

EDIT: 3.5 guys, oops!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Switch to Forestlord Elf, from Dragon Magic. That gets the Dragonblood subtype and a few differences in racial traits from standard elves. Use the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 racial substitution level from Races of the Dragon to get Draconic Heritage instead of a familiar. This is honestly way too much effort to get a largely worthless feat, but it doesn't really weaken the character at all. Note there are a few spells in Dragon Magic which are more potent when cast by someone with the dragonblood subtype, which is pretty much the only mechanical benefit he'll ever see from this. An alternative would be to get Dragonborn of Bahamut (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1), in which case I'd get either the breath attack or senses. This can still get the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 sub level.

Battle Sorcerer is a trap, don't even consider it. Dragon Disciple is not a gish class, don't even consider it.

Currently level 7, go Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword (CW) 1. Plan to take the next five levels in Abjurant Champion (CM), and the next eight in Sacred Exorcist (CD). This ends up with 18/20 Sorcerer spellcasting and 16/20 BAB, it's the ideal Sorcerer Gish character build. Note that once you hit Sacred Exorcist 4 you don't need to know Dismissal in order to still qualify, as its own Dispel Evil spell-like ability fulfills its own prerequisite.

Cast (Lesser Rod of Extended) (Greater) Luminous Armor (BoED) instead of wearing armor, it benefits from Abjurant Champion's AC bonus. Take Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Practiced Spellcaster, Minor Shapeshift (CM), and Divine Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight). Use the Ancestral Relic trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) to circumvent the limited number of spells known. You can even use that to get Dismissal for Sacred Exorcist. Note a runestaff can still function as a quarterstaff (per example items), so make each end +1 with Sudden Stunning (DMG2), as you'll have a separate pool of uses for each end and you can switch which end you're using on any given round. Use (Extended) Greater Magic Weapon on it, make sure it's Masterwork at each end with two wand chambers, and use it as your primary melee weapon. It can even be an Elvencraft (RotW) Composite Longbow and it can function as both a bow and a quarterstaff.

[Paul H]

Hi

This 3.5 or Pathfinder?

In PF the Sorc 1/Paladin 4/DD xxxxx is a strong build. (Or just about any mix of 5 lvls of Pal/Sor ).

2 lvls of Pal allow Lay on Hands plus add his cha bonus to all his saves. (And Smite Evil lasts until target or Pal dies, or Pal regains powers at Dawn).

True, it's limited spell casting, more of a melee who can self buff. Plus all the dragon claws, breath wpn etc, plus shaping into a Dragon & multi attacks with Smite going is quite cool too! :smallbiggrin:

Then again, PF chars tend to be more powerful than 3.5, especially the Prestige Classes.

Thanks
Paul H

[Magnera]

Switch to Forestlord Elf, from Dragon Magic. That gets the Dragonblood subtype and a few differences in racial traits from standard elves. Unfortunately the character is limited to the half elf race due to fluff reasons. However, it will be noted in the future!



Use the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 racial substitution level from Races of the Dragon to get Draconic Heritage instead of a familiar. This is honestly way too much effort to get a largely worthless feat, but it doesn't really weaken the character at all. Ill see if we are able to pull this off if our DM considers using Dragonborn of Bahamut.



Note there are a few spells in Dragon Magic which are more potent when cast by someone with the dragonblood subtype, which is pretty much the only mechanical benefit he'll ever see from this. An alternative would be to get Dragonborn of Bahamut (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1), in which case I'd get either the breath attack or senses. This can still get the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 sub level. This will most certainly be noted for his plans in the future!:smallbiggrin:


Battle Sorcerer is a trap, don't even consider it. Dragon Disciple is not a gish class, don't even consider it.

While it is understandable that the loss of spells per level and spells known would be a great hindrance upon the character, I see the BAB gain as something that would greatly assist the characters ability to hit.

How is Dragon Disciple a trap given my DM's house ruling on how it gives spells?



Currently level 7, go Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword (CW) 1. Plan to take the next five levels in Abjurant Champion (CM), and the next eight in Sacred Exorcist (CD). This ends up with 18/20 Sorcerer spellcasting and 16/20 BAB, it's the ideal Sorcerer Gish character build. Note that once you hit Sacred Exorcist 4 you don't need to know Dismissal in order to still qualify, as its own Dispel Evil spell-like ability fulfills its own prerequisite.

Unfortunately, we arent really able to alter his base class to this length. We cant really change our character classes because of the DM. While this would be a great gish, we arent able to reach it NOR does it give the character the Draconic feel my brother wishes to have.



Cast (Lesser Rod of Extended) (Greater) Luminous Armor (BoED) instead of wearing armor, it benefits from Abjurant Champion's AC bonus. Take Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Practiced Spellcaster, Minor Shapeshift (CM), and Divine Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight). Use the Ancestral Relic trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) to circumvent the limited number of spells known. You can even use that to get Dismissal for Sacred Exorcist. Note a runestaff can still function as a quarterstaff (per example items), so make each end +1 with Sudden Stunning (DMG2), as you'll have a separate pool of uses for each end and you can switch which end you're using on any given round. Use (Extended) Greater Magic Weapon on it, make sure it's Masterwork at each end with two wand chambers, and use it as your primary melee weapon. It can even be an Elvencraft (RotW) Composite Longbow and it can function as both a bow and a quarterstaff.
Given the build you stated earlier, how is this character even able to use Divine Might?

I'll look into that Ancestral Relic trick but our current DM doesn't know of the feat, so he might say no.

Minor Shapeshift and Practiced Spellcaster are two very neat feats that I'll have my brother look at.

[Magnera]

Hi

This 3.5 or Pathfinder?

In PF the Sorc 1/Paladin 4/DD xxxxx is a strong build. (Or just about any mix of 5 lvls of Pal/Sor ).

2 lvls of Pal allow Lay on Hands plus add his cha bonus to all his saves. (And Smite Evil lasts until target or Pal dies, or Pal regains powers at Dawn).

True, it's limited spell casting, more of a melee who can self buff. Plus all the dragon claws, breath wpn etc, plus shaping into a Dragon & multi attacks with Smite going is quite cool too! :smallbiggrin:

Then again, PF chars tend to be more powerful than 3.5, especially the Prestige Classes.

Thanks
Paul H

Sorry, this is 3.5, I forgot to tell yall that in my opening post.

We cant change his sorcerer levels into another class, however we can change some of them into a PrC. Which is why I am wanting help from you guys!

Thanks to his 18 in Wisdom, perhaps grabbing a monks belt would do him great favors?

[Randomguy]

The DM ruled that DD improves spell casting as 7/10, not what it actually says.

At what levels does the new progression lose caster levels? Because you can't afford losing more than 2.

If it's the same as the pathfinder Dragon Disciple he would lose caster levels at level 1, 5 and 9. If that's the case, I'd suggest Sorcerer 6/Dragon Disciple 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1.

This makes him end up with +15 BAB, which isn't ideal, but he still gets full casting.

If he takes Arcane Disciple (War Domain) then he'd be able to cast Divine Power, which would bring his BAB up to full but only for the duration of the spell.

Becoming a Dragonborn can get him wings, and if you can convince your DM to let you take the Dragon Breath feat (since you are almost, but not entirely, a half-dragon) then you can use your breath weapon at will, which would be cool but not that useful.

[Magnera]

At what levels does the new progression lose caster levels? Because you can't afford losing more than 2.

If it's the same as the pathfinder Dragon Disciple he would lose caster levels at level 1, 5 and 9. If that's the case, I'd suggest Sorcerer 6/Dragon Disciple 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1.

This makes him end up with +15 BAB, which isn't ideal, but he still gets full casting.

If he takes Arcane Disciple (War Domain) then he'd be able to cast Divine Power, which would bring his BAB up to full but only for the duration of the spell.

Becoming a Dragonborn can get him wings, and if you can convince your DM to let you take the Dragon Breath feat (since you are almost, but not entirely, a half-dragon) then you can use your breath weapon at will, which would be cool but not that useful.
The Dragon Disciple looses casting at 3,7,10.

So if I have my brother take BattleSorcerer5/Dragon Disciple9/AbjChampion5/Spellsword1(honestly these could probably be taken in any order). Then I would end with Bab16 along with Sorcerer18!

Therefor, at his current level my brother would be BAB5+Sorc7 along with +2 STR, +1 NA and a claw/bite attack. Its an improvement from just 3 BaB, that's for sure.

Based off of that, his unbuffed attack routine would look like +10 to hit and 1d8+7 damage. If we add on Fist of Stone (STR+6) then it would be +13 to hit and 1d8+12 damage.

But it gets better! We could then take arcane strike and use a second level spell for +15 to hit and 1d8+2d4+12 Damage! :smallcool:

[Randomguy]

The Dragon Disciple looses casting at 3,7,10.

So if I have my brother take BattleSorcerer5/Dragon Disciple9/AbjChampion5/Spellsword1(honestly these could probably be taken in any order). Then I would end with Bab16 along with Sorcerer18!

Therefor, at his current level my brother would be BAB5+Sorc7 along with +2 STR, +1 NA and a claw/bite attack. Its an improvement from just 3 BaB, that's for sure.

Based off of that, his unbuffed attack routine would look like +10 to hit and 1d8+7 damage. If we add on Fist of Stone (STR+6) then it would be +13 to hit and 1d8+12 damage.

But it gets better! We could then take arcane strike and use a second level spell for +15 to hit and 1d8+2d4+12 Damage! :smallcool:

Bad idea. Battle sorcerer isn't worth it. I'd rather have the 9 extra spells known than one extra attack per round. Especially since you've already got a bite attack on top of your regular full attack.

[Magnera]

Now that I think about it, battle Sorcerer would only give my brother and average 2 more points of HP and 1 point of BAB:smallfrown:. In exchange he will lose 9 spells known and 9 daily spells to cast. That IS quite horrid! Thanks for enlightening me about this.

[Magnera]

Two days have passed, I think it warrants a bump.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Two days have passed, I think it warrants a bump.

You're not very clear on what's already set in stone. The characters are 7th level, your first thoughts were Battle Sorcerer 5/ Dragon Disciple 2 immediately. Is this character already a Sorcerer 5/ Dragon Disciple 2, or a Sorcerer 7, or something else? What class levels can be changed, if any? Five levels of Sorcerer on a Gish is a deal breaker, unless you're going into Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), which typically starts Sorcerer or Wizard 6 and is considerably weak until the higher levels. No other playable gish builds use more than four Sorcerer levels, due to how little the chassis contributes to a combat-focused character, as it has the worst possible BAB and HD.

[Magnera]

My apologies, the forum ate my previous post that I placed a few moments ago.

Anyway, the DM made his rulling and it has fallen into Sorcerer5/Dragon Disciple2. Soon the character, when the group reaches the end of this upcomming plot hook is going to become a dragonborn and all that jazz. I only recently had a talk with my DM(5mins ago) and we have come to a conclusion regarding the build.

Thanks everyone, we have finished the goal here and the character is built. This thread may now be closed.

[Randomguy]

But... What conclusion did you come to? What's he going to take after level 7? WE NEED TO KNOW!!!