[3.P] Sneaky sorcadin

[RFLS]

So, I've had an idea kicking around for a little while for a gish-type character with a paladin base, but heavy on the spellcasting, with a focus on illusion-based spells. My group tends to run PF core rules, but basically all 3.5 material allowed. So...how would I do this? I suspect SCM will/should be involved, as well as Abjurant Champion, but I'm not sure.

[avr]

There's a Pathfinder PrC (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/veiled-illusionist) which gives any class some sorc/wiz illusion spells. You could use it to advance cleric spellcasting, just make sure you've got the Deception domain so you qualify. Add paladin levels for heavy armour and/or divine grace if desired.

If you do decide to go with the sorcerer class, the kobold bloodline would make for an interesting sneaky sorcerer IMO.

[Feralventas]

So, I've had an idea kicking around for a little while for a gish-type character with a paladin base, but heavy on the spellcasting, with a focus on illusion-based spells. My group tends to run PF core rules, but basically all 3.5 material allowed. So...how would I do this? I suspect SCM will/should be involved, as well as Abjurant Champion, but I'm not sure.

Shadow Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/shadow-bloodline) Sorcerer puts Stealth as a class skill. Divine Hunter build could make you a good sniper if you're willing to be a ranged combatant, but otherwise regular Paladin should suffice (considering how many Paladin archetypes take away Divine Grace.)

1 level dip in Battle Dancer is still full BAB and adds Charisma to AC when unarmored as well, letting you avoid Armor Check Penalty and stay at a distance, or avoid looking like an actual melee combatant while giving you a Monk's unarmed strike.

Either way, Battle Dancer1, Paladin2, Sorc1, then either Fighter 2 or Ranger 2 (with the archetype that best fits your fighting style, and I'd suggest Ranger in particular since it also has Stealth as a class skill).

Then into Abjurant Champion for 5 levels, then the fighter/mage PrC of your choice. Jade Phoenix Mage is nice if ToB is an option. Eldritch Knight in PF isn't horrible. If you're an elf or half-elf, PF's Arcane Archer could work well with Divine Hunter.

I know I'm playing up the ranged option but I feel like it would benefit a lot more from the stealthy/deception aspects of illusion spells. Melee could still work well enough, but at that point Unseen Seer or Daggerspell Mage for Fighter/mage/thief, though that's probably moving a bit too far away from your gish intent and more into Nale's Not-Bard.

[A_S]

Questions:

How important are 9th level spells to you?
Do you want skill-based sneakiness, or just spell-based sneakiness?
Do you want to focus primarily on stealth/distraction illusion spells (Superior Invis, Programmed Image, etc.), or Shadow spells (in which case SCM will be important)?
Are you set on having levels in Paladin, or just want a knight-ish flavor?
How do you feel about cheese?

[RFLS]

Shadow Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/shadow-bloodline) Sorcerer puts Stealth as a class skill. Divine Hunter build could make you a good sniper if you're willing to be a ranged combatant, but otherwise regular Paladin should suffice (considering how many Paladin archetypes take away Divine Grace.)

1 level dip in Battle Dancer is still full BAB and adds Charisma to AC when unarmored as well, letting you avoid Armor Check Penalty and stay at a distance, or avoid looking like an actual melee combatant while giving you a Monk's unarmed strike.

Either way, Battle Dancer1, Paladin2, Sorc1, then either Fighter 2 or Ranger 2 (with the archetype that best fits your fighting style, and I'd suggest Ranger in particular since it also has Stealth as a class skill).

Then into Abjurant Champion for 5 levels, then the fighter/mage PrC of your choice. Jade Phoenix Mage is nice if ToB is an option. Eldritch Knight in PF isn't horrible. If you're an elf or half-elf, PF's Arcane Archer could work well with Divine Hunter.

I know I'm playing up the ranged option but I feel like it would benefit a lot more from the stealthy/deception aspects of illusion spells. Melee could still work well enough, but at that point Unseen Seer or Daggerspell Mage for Fighter/mage/thief, though that's probably moving a bit too far away from your gish intent and more into Nale's Not-Bard.

Nice suggestions; I'd never seen Battle Dancer before. That's good to know about. I think with this route I might instead take a 2nd Sorcerer level and then a fighter level; it'd net me the same BAB, more spells, and the feat I'd get from Ranger; it should allow me to go into Abj. Champ from there. I'd really prefer a melee Sorcadin, but I'm really open to anything. The problem is that gishes tend to rely on channeling or 2HFing for damage; neither of which really are doable with this character.


Questions:

How important are 9th level spells to you?
Do you want skill-based sneakiness, or just spell-based sneakiness?
Do you want to focus primarily on stealth/distraction illusion spells (Superior Invis, Programmed Image, etc.), or Shadow spells (in which case SCM will be important)?
Are you set on having levels in Paladin, or just want a knight-ish flavor?
How do you feel about cheese?



9ths aren't super important, but would be nice.
Both; skill is more important, though.
Stealth and distraction spells would be preferable; I'd like to get damage from melee, but I haven't worked out how.
Pretty set on having levels of Paladin, yeah. It'd be a lot easier otherwise; I could just go any of a dozen standard gish builds that get Abj. Champ.
Cheese is okay, but I'd prefer it not to be game-breaking, if that makes sense.

[Feralventas]

2hand fighting for a Gish?

As far as archery goes, having hands full is a certain problem, so you'll be choosing between your Full Attack or your spell effects, but seeing as both take your standard action and you can put your bow on a weapon chain, shouldn't be too difficult to switch each turn. Arcane Archer in particular lets you put spells on your arrows, so you can roll to hit your target or put "Close" AOE effects at arching distance easily.

(Truestrike+20 with -10 for Far-shot and then any combat bonuses, then hit AC 5 for a specific square.)

Alternatively, you can go BD+Pally+Sorc+Fighter, then focus your mobility and use Wards and Abjurations as your means of combat, fighting by setting traps and defenses and impediments all over hidden by your illusions, or using illusions to make them think that there are traps and impediments while your team-mates deal the actual damage, and you give the illusion of being a mage until they get close at which point you punch them several times in the face to explain why they're wrong.

[Juntao112]

Planar Bind a Nightmare, use it as your mount, and go about your sneaking business as an ethereal creature.

[A_S]

Thanks to PF's friendlier cross-classing skill rules, you can actually just replace Sacred Exorcist in the standard sorcadin build with Unseen Seer. Something like:

Shadow Bloodline Sorcerer 4 / Paladin 2 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 1 / Unseen Seer 8 / Abjurant Champion +4

Only big problem is that unless you find some way to get your hands on sneak attack before you hit Unseen Seer, it won't advance anything with its precision damage bonuses. You could delay it long enough to pick up Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), but that would mean the sneakiness is all at the end of the build. Not sure if there's a better option (I don't know all of the PF archetypes).

[RFLS]

2hand fighting for a Gish?

As far as archery goes, having hands full is a certain problem, so you'll be choosing between your Full Attack or your spell effects, but seeing as both take your standard action and you can put your bow on a weapon chain, shouldn't be too difficult to switch each turn. Arcane Archer in particular lets you put spells on your arrows, so you can roll to hit your target or put "Close" AOE effects at arching distance easily.

(Truestrike+20 with -10 for Far-shot and then any combat bonuses, then hit AC 5 for a specific square.)

Alternatively, you can go BD+Pally+Sorc+Fighter, then focus your mobility and use Wards and Abjurations as your means of combat, fighting by setting traps and defenses and impediments all over hidden by your illusions, or using illusions to make them think that there are traps and impediments while your team-mates deal the actual damage, and you give the illusion of being a mage until they get close at which point you punch them several times in the face to explain why they're wrong.

I much prefer the second one. I guess it really just comes down to the spells I pick, huh?


Planar Bind a Nightmare, use it as your mount, and go about your sneaking business as an ethereal creature.

^This is happening. It is a thing. I like it.

[RFLS]

How would a Bard 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer 1/Battledancer 1/Fighter 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sublime Chord 1/Other PrCs look?