Critical Hits for Spells

[Gordy95]

Hey,
So I was reading the players handbook and I found this little gem in the combat section listed under the critical hit sidebar:

"Spells and Critical Hits:
A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit"

So am I reading this wrong or does every spell that requires a ranged touch attack or a melee touch have the ability to crit? Are all orb spells crittable? If so, can I boost the critical range of my spells by taking improved critical on my hands?

"An orb of acid about 3 inches across shoots from your palm at its target"

So if its a ranged attack made from my hand, would improving the critical range of my hand improve the critical range of the attack?

My DM is currently deciding whether or not he wants to allow spell crits on this wording. What do you all think?

[Humble Master]

Well seeing as the whole "from you hand" is fluff text I would say no to improving the critical threat range by taking Improved Crit (Hand). However I would rule that you could take Improved Crit for a given school of magic. Then it would double the crit range of all spell with an attack bonus of that school.

[Hendel]

In both 3.5 (nicely laid out in Complete Mage) and in Pathfinder all of the feats and attributes that apply to melee or ranged attacks can apply to touch or ranged touch attacks for spells. That also means that the penalties apply as well.

If you wanted to take weapon focus (ray) then you can. You can also take Improved Critical (ray) if you meet the prerequisites. However, you also have a -4 penalty for shooting a ray into a melee unless you have Precise Shot, etc.

So, the rules allow for it and it can be used to great effect. I once scored a critical hit with a maximized Disintegrate and did some horrible damage to the bad guy.

Edit: Sorry it was in Complete Arcane page 72 where it talks about Weapon Like Spells.

[HunterOfJello]

This is covered very specifically in Complete Arcane's weapon-like spells section.


Improved Critical: Choose one category of weaponlike spells (ranged spells or touch spells). When you use a spell of the selected category, its threat range is doubled, so that a spell that normally threatens a critical hit on a roll of 20 has a threat range of 19–20. You can gain this feat a second time, choosing a different category of weaponlike spells.


You can take Improved Critical (Ranged Spells) as a feat and any time you roll a 19 or 20 on your attack roll, you threaten a crit with that spell.

You are not restricted to giving the benefit only to rays.

[Gordy95]

Okay then, a nice definitive answer with reference. But now let's kick it up a notch. Help me cheese the crap out of this concept. I'm thinking either a disintegrate or orb spell focused caster, with the practiced spellcaster feat to allow 4 levels of free multiclassing into a non spell casting class. Then all the standard improved critical deals, and any other critical cheese there is to be found. Chain spell or split ray to keep the magic moving. Then at higher levels using delay spell and some time warping magic along with these ray spells to make for a single turn of disco party madness when I erupt from my time bubble. And of course the necessary feats and items and class abilities to maintain a huge ranged touch attack bonus. Thoughts?

[Urpriest]

Okay then, a nice definitive answer with reference. But now let's kick it up a notch. Help me cheese the crap out of this concept. I'm thinking either a disintegrate or orb spell focused caster, with the practiced spellcaster feat to allow 4 levels of free multiclassing into a non spell casting class. Then all the standard improved critical deals, and any other critical cheese there is to be found. Chain spell or split ray to keep the magic moving. Then at higher levels using delay spell and some time warping magic along with these ray spells to make for a single turn of disco party madness when I erupt from my time bubble. And of course the necessary feats and items and class abilities to maintain a huge ranged touch attack bonus. Thoughts?

Just checking, you are aware that Practiced Spellcaster increases caster level, right? It doesn't give any more spells per day or increase your maximum spell level.

[Fates]

Help me cheese the crap out of this concept. I'm thinking either a disintegrate or orb spell focused caster, with the practiced spellcaster feat to allow 4 levels of free multiclassing into a non spell casting class.

Eh-heh.
Practiced Spellcaster increases your Caster Level. That's it. So, you could be a 3rd-level wizard and take four levels of fighter, and you'd still only be able to cast 1st and 2nd-level spells, but you'd cast them at caster level 7. If the feat just gave you four free levels, every spellcaster out there would take it.

EDIT: Agh. Ninja'd by Ur-Priest. He's quite the sneaky fellow (and far more polite than I am).

[Quietus]

There are plenty of guides and advice to be given on the subject of metamagic on spells, but I would just like to say : Practiced Spellcaster does not do what you think it does. It increases your caster level-based benefits for spells (range, damage on a fireball, caster level check to overcome SR), but it doesn't get you any closer to casting Delayed Blast Fireball. It doesn't give you more spell slots, or access to spell levels.

[Gordy95]

Fully aware of what it does. I'm offering it as a
Potential use in his bui because the highest level spell I will need for along time is orbs, level 4 spells. I need the caster levels for the per level damage. By the ability to drop into a non caster class to get some sort of benefit to my ranged touch attacks would make landing those hits easier.

[Slipperychicken]

Okay then, a nice definitive answer with reference. But now let's kick it up a notch. Help me cheese the crap out of this concept. I'm thinking either a disintegrate or orb spell focused caster, with the practiced spellcaster feat to allow 4 levels of free multiclassing into a non spell casting class. Then all the standard improved critical deals, and any other critical cheese there is to be found. Chain spell or split ray to keep the magic moving. Then at higher levels using delay spell and some time warping magic along with these ray spells to make for a single turn of disco party madness when I erupt from my time bubble. And of course the necessary feats and items and class abilities to maintain a huge ranged touch attack bonus. Thoughts?

Allow me to introduce you to The Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer).

EDIT: Don't discount your spells known and per day progression. It's even more important than your CL, gives you awesome options like Maw of Chaos, more spells per day, and allows you to apply smexy metamagics to your damage spells.

EDIT II: Besides, they're ranged touch attacks; basically guaranteed to hit with even an okay Dex and 1/2 BAB, and if you're so worried about it, grab a PrC which advances more BAB. Or cast (Quickened) True Strike when you really need it.

[Gordy95]

Been there, read that, stopped caring once it required incantrix. I can't use magic of faerun. But the concept is there. I'll use that as a base but instead of all thefts magic I'll replace it with crit cheese.

[Fates]

Fully aware of what it does. I'm offering it as a
Potential use in his bui because the highest level spell I will need for along time is orbs, level 4 spells. I need the caster levels for the per level damage. By the ability to drop into a non caster class to get some sort of benefit to my ranged touch attacks would make landing those hits easier.

Alright, sorry for my brashness, your syntax was confusing. However, I still think it's a bad idea- giving up four levels of spellcasting hurts like hell, and almost definitely wouldn't be worth whatever paltry bonus you'd get from multiclassing.

One thing you may want to consider is the Battle Sorcerer variant (if you did choose to play as a sorcerer). As well as a d8 HD, light armor proficiency and magic synergy, and a single martial weapon proficiency, it gives you a 3/4 BAB, which will make your attacks not insignificantly more likely to hit. Still, it's probably not worth the -1 spell known/spell per day/spell level.

Frankly, playing a purely damage-dealing caster is usually a futile endeavour. Ray Deflection alone is capable of making you totally useless. None of the cheeses I've seen for builds like that have ever been sharp enough.

[Slipperychicken]

Frankly, playing a purely damage-dealing caster is usually a futile endeavour. Ray Deflection alone is capable of making you totally useless. None of the cheeses I've seen for builds like that have ever been sharp enough.

The best way to go about it is be able to do impressive damage so you can have fun killing things with fire, but also have the other "standard" tactics (buff, CC) available to you when that isn't good enough. Basically, don't overspecialize and become a one-trick pony -that's the Fighter's job :smalltongue:

[Fates]

The best way to go about it is be able to do impressive damage so you can have fun killing things with fire, but also have the other "standard" tactics (buff, CC) available to you when that isn't good enough.

That's about what I figured. I've been forcing myself not to play spellcasters for the last couple years (besides one hexblade. My group's not nearly as op-savvy as I am), so I'm a little out of the loop.


Basically, don't overspecialize and become a one-trick pony -that's the Fighter's job :smalltongue:

Please, a fighter is more like a three-legged donkey who occasionally gets mad and bites people. Funny how the class that was meant to be the most versatile turned out so useless.

[Gordy95]

I agree about the one trick fighter pony thing. I har a level 18 fighter/disciple of dispater. Even with spell casting abilities for DoD, every full round action I take equates to: I swing my gargantuan vorpal sword, it crits, it dies, cleave, rinse repeat boring. Satisfying, but boring. That aside, my caster is the parties damage source. We have a saint templated fully cheesed cleric who has taken Every vow he is able to, so he is now a tank, healer, mind controller, and basic utility. We have a sorcerer, who does his thing, but mainly utility and non damage spells, a knight, who doesn't really do much of anything, an assassin, who is a bit useless because two sorcerers can full healh so zero most enemies we encounter(we tend to fight large groups of enemies), and a ash work dragoon, whose worm is far more valuable than he is. My sole job is to dish out unavoidable ridiculous damage. That being said, I'm a level 9 warmage as of now. Any suggestions on optimizing a warmage to deal obscene unavoidable pure damage, at the expense of any form of sustainability, utility, or general well being?

[Slipperychicken]

That's about what I figured. I've been forcing myself not to play spellcasters for the last couple years (besides one hexblade. My group's not nearly as op-savvy as I am), so I'm a little out of the loop.


I haven't played a blaster yet, but that's the feel I'm getting from building them (I've recently become obsessed with fire-blasting as a concept). Some things will simply be immune to most forms of blast in dnd, just like they can be immune to Mind Affecting or Sneak Attack.



Please, a fighter is more like a three-legged donkey who occasionally gets mad and bites people. Funny how the class that was meant to be the most versatile turned out so useless.

Laughing so hard, I hope no one was too close to my window... Seriously considering sigging this.

[Fates]

I agree about the one trick fighter pony thing. I har a level 18 fighter/disciple of dispater. Even with spell casting abilities for DoD, every full round action I take equates to: I swing my gargantuan vorpal sword, it crits, it dies, cleave, rinse repeat boring. Satisfying, but boring. That aside, my caster is the parties damage source. We have a saint templated fully cheesed cleric who has taken Every vow he is able to, so he is now a tank, healer, mind controller, and basic utility. We have a sorcerer, who does his thing, but mainly utility and non damage spells, a knight, who doesn't really do much of anything, an assassin, who is a bit useless because two sorcerers can full healh so zero most enemies we encounter(we tend to fight large groups of enemies), and a ash work dragoon, whose worm is far more valuable than he is. My sole job is to dish out unavoidable ridiculous damage. That being said, I'm a level 9 warmage as of now. Any suggestions on optimizing a warmage to deal obscene unavoidable pure damage, at the expense of any form of sustainability, utility, or general well being?

Jeez, you're a Warmage? Good luck not being a one-trick pony, mate.

[Fates]

Laughing so hard, I hope no one was too close to my window... Seriously considering sigging this.

Ha, who knew I'm funnier when I'm exhausted? Everyone excels at something- perhaps I will grow up to be the world's greatest unconscious comedian. :smalltongue:

[Hendel]

I was always a fan of Orb of Force.

If you take Arcane Thesis in it and pick up Empower, Maximize, Quicken, Twin, and Enhance, you can do some damage. Once you hit level 27 and can get Improved Metamagic, it just gets silly.

By 31st level my sorcerer was able to use Greater Arcane Fusion to basically launch 16 Orbs of Force a round (it did take a 9th and a 10th level slot) and they each did 210 points of damage (this could vary based on how you rule Empower and Maximize work or don't work together).

With 16 orbs doing 210 points of damage each upon a hit, I felt like the Archer from Battletech or Robotech opening up with a full salvo from both shoulders and leg mounted missiles.

Anyway, Orb of Force is still nice as a ranged attack spell at much lower levels too.

[Paul H]

Hi

Orbs? Just go Warmage.

Edge: You add your Int mod to any spell that does HP damage.
Extra Edge: You do even more damage based on Warmage level.

Oh, don't forget the level dip in Arcane Savant. All your force spells do extra point of damage per dam dice too! :P
(You can meet the prereq's at 11th lvl as pure Warmage)

Then there's the free 'Sudden' spell feats. The ability to wear/use armour & shields

Oh, and it's a spont caster who knows every spell on his entire spell list from 1st lvl!

Thanks
Paul H
PS Warmages make excellent Rainbow Servants too!
Edit; Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 10 can cast any spell from either the Warmage or Cleric lists. Some GM's might require you to take Arcane Disciple for full casting
But that's at lvl 16. (But you also gain the spells known & abilities of Good, Law & Air Domains too)!

[Story]

Once you hit level 27 and can get Improved Metamagic, it just gets silly.

By 31st level my sorcerer was able to use Greater Arcane Fusion to basically launch 16 Orbs of Force a round (it did take a 9th and a 10th level slot) and they each did 210 points of damage (this could vary based on how you rule Empower and Maximize work or don't work together).


Once you hit level 21 and can get epic magic, the entire game gets silly. There's not much point in talking about damage output at epic levels when all semblance of balance goes out the window at level 17, and magic operates largely by DM discretion by level 21.


As for Empower + Maximize, there actually is an official ruling on how they stack. Basically, they both apply additional damage, but the empower part isn't maximized.

[Fates]

Once you hit level 21 and can get epic magic, the entire game gets silly. There's not much point in talking about damage output at epic levels when all semblance of balance goes out the window at level 17, and magic operates largely by DM discretion by level 21.


As for Empower + Maximize, there actually is an official ruling on how they stack. Basically, they both apply additional damage, but the empower part isn't maximized.

True enough, but most DMs I've played with restrict or ban epic spellcasting, because it's really just totally ridiculous.

[Story]

Also, can Ennervation deal extra negative levels on a crit? I'm a bit confused, since it doesn't technically deal damage.

[Khedrac]

Also, can Ennervation deal extra negative levels on a crit? I'm a bit confused, since it doesn't technically deal damage.
Yes Enervation does 2d4 negative levels on a crit.

The one that does not is Ray of Enfeeblement, as it applies a penalty.

One comment to a remark posted some time back - you cannot use Chain Spell with the orb and ray spells. Chain only works with spells that specify a target, the orb and ray spells do not. Odd but there you go.

[tyckspoon]

I haven't played a blaster yet, but that's the feel I'm getting from building them (I've recently become obsessed with fire-blasting as a concept). Some things will simply be immune to most forms of blast in dnd, just like they can be immune to Mind Affecting or Sneak Attack.


When you absolutely must damage something: Hail of Stone. Upsides: No SR, No Save, no attack roll. Downside: full round casting time and a costly material component, weak damage die and very low cap (it's only a 1st level spell.) Still, by the time you put it through the Mailman treatment it'll still crush almost anything, and AFAIK it can't really be avoided by anything short of outright damage immunity.