Taking on an Evil Party

[chaoraiser]

The party Im currently playing with we are doing an evil campaign lvl 15. We are all evil characters so there is natural distrust between us. When you add the fact my character just betrayed a good chunk of the party since I was betrayed first for my bounty you make things very tense. We all have a bounty so it was bound to happen with our greedier party members. Its getting to a point where the party is constantly on the verge of self destruct. Its bound to come to a point to where its going to tear itself apart leaving maybe a few people standing at best. I'd like to have my 5lvl warblade 5lvl master thrower 5lvl bloodstorm blade to be one of those left standing. I can deal with saves and such without problem due to my maneuvers, but the biggest problem comes from two characters really. The one is a psionic half shade since he can hit like a freight train and just to spot him its like a 76 bonus for him. The main problem is being able to spot him. He has every way to conceal himself from things that bypass invisibility like hiding his magic items from being seen tremor sense and such. The next is a wildshape monk. He hits hard too getting like 8 attacks and with his gear does vile and neg lvls for each hit. The biggest issue is his ac. His regular and touch ac is normally around 42+ depending on his form. I can go for touch with my thrown weapons if he is the same size but my issue is my bonuses and bab I have like a +22. The monk has an issue of hiding things from the players fudging rolls and threatening players. He is a more veteran player and holds that over a lot of us. He is a jerk about it and was like this in the good campaign prior to this. Its getting to the point where we want to kill him and shut him up. I cant hit him which I my big problem. The other players are good but I could probably deal with most of them or set up a deal so not to worry about them.

So the biggest thing I need is a way to beat the one persons invisibility since he cant be seen by normal means. the easiest would be to boost my spot since its sitting at like 21 naturally. So ways to help with that would be great.

The other would be for the monk. I need the way to boost my to hit by like 10 or 20. The dm surprisingly said something with true strike would be used, but I dont want to break the game since my to hit would be without rolling a 42 and could hit things with a miss chance without fail. If there isnt a cheap but effective way then this will unfortunately be the route I go.

Can someone help me beat this predicament?

[ArcturusV]

A monk is the one big obstacle? I just... letting that sink in a bit... a monk... a... monk...

... okay.

Anyways, sorry to hear the party is self destructing. I've heard a lot of people say it's just inevitable, if you're evil you're going to end up shanking all your teammates at the drop of a hat. I disagree. So it wasn't inevitable, but it ended up here anyway.

The Monk is perhaps the easiest one. He's a Monk. He lacks a lot of truly protective abilities or anything. Wait for him to go to sleep then just slit his throat. I mean no need to go reaching for something so esoteric. Monks have terrible time due to having a wide array of skills and being too MAD to actually make a go of being skill based. So he probably has terrible Spot/Listen, especially when sleeping.

I mean it shouldn't be any more complex than that. Monks suck. They don't have that many HP, they have far too many stats to jack up to be decent at any sort of one area. By going at him with this "Duel" mindset in play, you are giving the Monk the BEST possible chance he has. Really. That is his OPTIMAL situation. Fight him any other way other than throwing out a formal challenge and the best he'll be able to do is run away. If he's smart. He might think he's OP-Fu'd you and will actually accept less favorable terms. In which case you just up and SLAUGHTER him.

The shade being a psion is a bit harder. Especially since he's optimized for Non-Detection. Course if you really wanted to be cheap, and didn't care? Hire a Cleric to cast so buffs on your Int, Guidance of the Avatar, etc. Jack up your Religion Check to DC 30+, sacrifice some poor sod to a dark god/fiend. Get a free Limited Wish and just say "I wish ____ was brought here, trussed up and helpless at my feet". Because that's probably the one shot you got at beating him. Outside of Wish style handwaving, don't see it happening too much.

[Preaplanes]

How hard are we talking here? A Solar Angel would put them in their place right quick.

"Paralyzed. Holy word, all of you, paralyzed.. 1d10 minutes, No saving throw."

[chaoraiser]

Well the dm keeps pushing us to stab each other in the back due to bounties so it makes it that much harder.

The monk on a straight one on one is bad due to his ac. It takes me to turns to really pump out the required damage. The real problem comes from his shape shifting that boosts his stats otherwise Id have no issue with him. His luck feats also make it so he doesnt die without taking several concurrent damage since it auto stabilizes him and he has item to pop him back to 30 health. Also the character has the tendency to let his items do most of his other defense to spells and such. The dm just basicly handed him like 400,000 gold from bounties and cut me off from money currently so he is making it hard to combat him. Also the dm likes to skip over the rest parts of the adventure for some reason.

The person is a half shade with the ability to make a fortitude save to the damage that would kill him to take him to the shadow plane instead. Guidance on an item was one thought. Would it stack with divine insight? Wish is out of the question since the dm basicly ruled it overpowered.

[chaoraiser]

How hard are we talking here? A Solar Angel would put them in their place right quick.

"Paralyzed. Holy word, all of you, paralyzed.. 1d10 minutes, No saving throw."

Well Im trying to figure out a way to stand a chance against them.

Im evil so I cant use good aligned things.

[ArcturusV]

Eh. I'm not familiar with whatever saving grace widgets your monk apparently has. But less a case of the Monk is a problem and more a case that his items are a problem.

Without any coin what so ever that would be hard to deal with. With coin it becomes easier to deal with. Everything from hiring a talented thief to just rob the character (And being his Inside Man to make sure the job goes off without a hitch), or a mage to just Disjunction all his shinies. And when there are no items? Well he's still a crappy monk and you're 3 tiers higher than him. Hulk Smash.

Course, you could probably play up the thief angle without needing to pay the thief up front, if you can pull it off. Just cut him a deal for half (Or even three-quarters) of the take on the job.

To quote: "Always attack your enemy's strengths."
"Don't you mean always attack your enemy's weaknesses?"
"Hell no! Everyone expects that, learns to protect their weaknesses. No one thinks you'll attack their strengths!"

In the case of the monk? Sounds like it's all Moneymancy, without it, he's kinda FAIL. Wildshaping would help a bit, but shouldn't overcome the gap. So you attack his money.

[chaoraiser]

Eh. I'm not familiar with whatever saving grace widgets your monk apparently has. But less a case of the Monk is a problem and more a case that his items are a problem.

Without any coin what so ever that would be hard to deal with. With coin it becomes easier to deal with. Everything from hiring a talented thief to just rob the character (And being his Inside Man to make sure the job goes off without a hitch), or a mage to just Disjunction all his shinies. And when there are no items? Well he's still a crappy monk and you're 3 tiers higher than him. Hulk Smash.

Course, you could probably play up the thief angle without needing to pay the thief up front, if you can pull it off. Just cut him a deal for half (Or even three-quarters) of the take on the job.

To quote: "Always attack your enemy's strengths."
"Don't you mean always attack your enemy's weaknesses?"
"Hell no! Everyone expects that, learns to protect their weaknesses. No one thinks you'll attack their strengths!"

In the case of the monk? Sounds like it's all Moneymancy, without it, he's kinda FAIL. Wildshaping would help a bit, but shouldn't overcome the gap. So you attack his money.
Thats a good idea. Without his items I can easily take his blows and such. though I still have the issue of beating his Ac. I need to be able to beat that so in case I get into it with him when we are out traveling I can stand a chance.

Though my next thing is the shade still. I see him as being less likely to turn on me but I still need a way to beat him if the situation calls for it.

[Preaplanes]

Well Im trying to figure out a way to stand a chance against them.

Im evil so I cant use good aligned things.

Well, if you can get a Sorcerer/Wizard to cast Greater Planar Binding, it won't matter, as it becomes a "Deal with the Devil". In this case the devil just happens to be the summoner.

I'm pretty sure a Planetar would love the chance to bust up some of your party members' heads, and they cast as a L17 Cleric (Miracle: Forcecage, bitch) in addition to all their other abilities. Just be careful that your agreement includes amnesty for yourself.



Honestly I don't think one member of the party usually stands a great chance against the entire rest of he party (unless we're dealing with some serious optimization/tier level issues), at least not at once. If it's a long term thing, I'd suggest poisoning, just watch out for Dwarves and the like.

The only one that comes close to a "Suck it, party" is a character pulling Holy Word (and its sister spells) buffing. A certain +4 Prayer Bead plus one of those +1 symbols of your god (such as a Nugget of Garl Glittergold) and/or the appropriate domain. Even then, if they share the alignment of that spell, it's worthless.

[ArcturusV]

Well, how does your monk Wildshape? This matters. If he spent his money on the Wilding ability on all his gear, that lets it function while shaped, you're kinda hosed if he presses the issue before you're ready (And is already in form). Otherwise you have potentially one round to do something. Charge/Pounce and Sunder as much of his gear in order of importance as you can before he changes shape.

Now if he neglected to get the Wilding ability for his items, then... well... all you have to do is wait for him to Wildshape when you want to throw down. And point to the book, where you don't get any benefit of your items while wildshaped. Then LAUGH as you go and mess up his day.

You'd be surprised how often I've seen people overlook that. Even experienced players.

If he tries to save money and "equip" himself after transforming into something like an elemental or humanoid shaped animal like a Gorilla? They're still out in the open for you to take apart as needed.

Remember all his AC buffs don't do squat to protect his gear. Only the item's AC (10+size modifiers) and the wearer's Dex Mod applies.

There is a Magic Shackles item out there, by the way. I can't remember what it's called exactly. But someone in the shackles is basically your mundane punching bag. You can go to another plane. You cannot go Ethereal or anything. You are stuck in them, no sort of magical manipulation or supernatural ability can get you out. Anti-Magic Shackles? Eh. I'm horrible with names.

Now the trick, getting them on him. If you're a good bluffer, you can probably take the wrist locks off the chains (and hope they still work), and lie to the guy, say they are some sort of protective wrist band items of +5 awesome. Then leave them in a place where the shade is likely to steal and equip them.

[Zerter]

Ah... the ''veteran'' player in the Evil party with the DM pushing everyone to take the knives out using bounties. We have all been there! I am not going to go into the specifics of your group, some general advice:

Stop thinking in terms of a straight up fight. If you are stronger than your opponent, he will run. If you are weaker than your opponent, you should run. The only way to take out a fellow Evil PC is to wait for the right circumstances. Wait till he is vulnerable. Wait until you have allies at hand. Better yet: let someone else do the job. Maybe there is some kind of enemy with an interest in taking down the PC.

Plan for everything. I saw someone suggest you slith the Monk in his sleep. But we all know Evil PCs don't sleep where their throats can be slith by other PCs. You should have a way to get out of it if they turn on you, and you should anticipate that they counter that way so have a counter for their counter.

Turn them against each other. I don't know the specifics of your group, but plant some kind of evidence that makes any PC think another PC is coming for him. Put yourself in their positions, what would prompt the Monk to make a pre-emptive strike against another player? What can also help if you promise to have his back only to put a knife in it.

Unleash the rule laywer in yourself. In my experience when PCs do fight the most time is spend checking if everything is done according to the rules. You don't understand how unimportant the rules are normally until you have had every action scrutinized with the sole objective being to make them work against you. Make sure you are prepared in terms of your own actions and make sure you are ready to scrutinize the other guy.

I hope these tips lead to a productive and enjoyable session!

[Grollub]

I would suggest, if anyway possible, to turn the shade player against the monk and have them duke it out.. swoop in to clean up the mess and kill the winner. :smallcool:

[Elricaltovilla]

I would suggest, if anyway possible, to turn the shade player against the monk and have them duke it out.. swoop in to clean up the mess and kill the winner. :smallcool:

This.

Go to the monk and say "That shade guy has a +76 to his stealth, he could gank all of us in our sleep, we should team up and get the bounty from him!"

then, go to the Psion and say "That monk has a 42 AC, nobody can touch him. He'll kill all of us for the bounties unless we team up to gank him in his sleep!"

[Phippster]

You have a significant advantage in this being a Warblade, especially against the Shade. Unless he has the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness, find some way of picking up the Hearing the Air stance from Diamond Mind. It grants you 30 ft. blindsense, against which his stealth will do jack-diddly without that feat.

As for the Monk, other people have mentioned that he's... a Monk. Get rid of his items in some fashion. Hire a rogue to steal them off of him and give them to you. Or, better yet, have him take the majority but leave say one piece of useful gear with another of the PCs. This then prompts the Monk to start a fight with them, preferably someone who might have an alliance with someone else that may be able to either kill the monk or at least damage him enough that you can easily take him out.

The easiest solution is to start thinking like a sleazy, underhanded scumbag. Ideally, you will only ever have to fight one person to win. That person is the last man standing from the battle royal you instigated without them knowing. Play every angle, turn them against each other while making sure they like you enough not to try and gank you while you back is turned. At the very least, make killing you not worth the expenditure of resources it would require.

[chaoraiser]

Well I'd love to pit the two against one another but currently they have a truce between them since they now they have the best chance to kill one another. Everyone else is game to take on the monk. I just know right now with his ac I personally cant touch him. The frenzy barbarian, spell casters can all do so, but I cant hit him without a nat 20. Also the shade did pick up the feats so he cant be detected even with that. The biggest issue for me is those two since if the party imploded on itself I cant hit wither due to sight or ac. If one of them and me were the last standing then it doesnt put the odds in my favor.

[Phippster]

I think probably your best bet is to get the party rogue (assuming you have one, and your sneaky guy isn't simply the Shade) and have him jack some of the items off the Monk. After doing so, he takes it and hides in his Bag of Holding/Portable Hole/Handy Haversack, what have you. He hides the things that are the most obtrusive, things that the rest of you can't/don't need to use, or things that you couldn't hide on your persons.

You then have him plant some sort of item the shade could use on his person while asleep. You then later wake up the Monk, preferably long BEFORE the Shade would normally wake up, and have him somehow notice the item on the Shade's person. Hopefully, he'll be too enraged at the betrayal that he either won't listen to the Shade's answers or simply will not let him speak at all before attacking him.

Barring that, have your spellcasters dispel his magic items while he's sleeping, because if your spellcasters haven't got (Greater) Dispel Magic then there's something really wrong here. In this scenario, you do the same thing to the Shade and all his items that are likely boosting that Hide check he's spotting, as well as any of his magic weapons or the like. After that, you just plop some kind of movement restricting spell on him, preferably something powerful like Forcecage, and coup de grace them while they're sleeping. Divide up the loot and call it a day.