So, I decerebrated this guy...

[Jeff the Green]

My cleric of Kelemvor took the brain of one of her enemies to cast absorb mind from the BoVD. She's Good and so can't cast it (yet), but she doesn't realize it's an [Evil] spell.

She's doing this on behalf of another party member she just met, who would probably be squicked out, at the very least, if he knew what she was going to try to do. He knows that she took the brain, but is there a non-evil explanation for taking it?

[ArcturusV]

Likes collecting things that can be put in basement jars?

Raise Dead item?

Weird sort of Fetish (As in the warrior symbol of victory over an enemy)?

Spell components? I seem to recall there are spells out there which use brains as a component. Not all of them can be evil.

[Ashtagon]

By conventional morality standards, it's an evil act. However, D&D is all about killing people and taking their (ahem) stuff.

Assuming the dead guy was good (or neutral, reallY), it was an evil act just killing him. But if he was evil (and depending on campaign logic, maybe he'd have to be irredeemably evil), it was a good act, or at least neutral.

There is a secondary question to consider. It certainly counts as desecrating the corpse. Whether that is in itself evil or not is a question for campaign logic.

[Xerxus]

So desecrating a corpse is evil? Would that make organ transplants evil as well?

[Ashtagon]

So desecrating a corpse is evil? Would that make organ transplants evil as well?

As I said, it's a question for campaign logic.

fwiw, this was genuinely a serious moral question that had to be overcome for modern medical organ transplants. And there are still major religious organisations (no names please) today that instruct their congregations against the practice, denouncing it as somewhere between unwholesome and evil.

[Jeff the Green]

Likes collecting things that can be put in basement jars?

Raise Dead item?

Weird sort of Fetish (As in the warrior symbol of victory over an enemy)?

Those might work if my character weren't a librarian. And it probably wouldn't help with the squick.


Spell components? I seem to recall there are spells out there which use brains as a component. Not all of them can be evil.

This, on the other hand, would be perfect. Any ideas what?


By conventional morality standards, it's an evil act. However, D&D is all about killing people and taking their (ahem) stuff.

Assuming the dead guy was good (or neutral, reallY), it was an evil act just killing him. But if he was evil (and depending on campaign logic, maybe he'd have to be irredeemably evil), it was a good act, or at least neutral.

There is a secondary question to consider. It certainly counts as desecrating the corpse. Whether that is in itself evil or not is a question for campaign logic.

The guy was already dead. Granted, my character did try to murder another enemy after she'd surrendered, but she's still LG, on the slippery slope to LN and (maybe) beyond. And casting the spell will definitely be Evil, since it's not only [Evil] but also Corrupt.

I'm not looking to deceive the character, just give the player an option if he wants his character to not be freaked out immediately.

[Bakeru]

So desecrating a corpse is evil? Would that make organ transplants evil as well?I doubt somehow that the guy whose brain is about to be eaten has filled out an organ donor card...

But more to the point, how doesn't she know it's an [evil] spell? Did she fail some knowledge check?

[ArcturusV]

First thing that leaps to mind is Golem creation. Which isn't inherently evil... despite the fact that Golems are explicitly powered by enslaved elementals...

I'm sure there's a "Brain Golem" out there. Though I cannot remember what it is in.

[Jeff the Green]

I doubt somehow that the guy whose brain is about to be eaten has filled out an organ donor card...

But more to the point, how doesn't she know it's an [evil] spell? Did she fail some knowledge check?

It's not obviously evil like summoning a demon or creating undead. You just eat part of their brain and have a 25% chance of learning any given fact that they knew while they were alive. She only heard about it from another cleric of Kelemvor, who worshipped Myrkul and Cyric before they lost the portfolio, and he didn't elaborate much.

[Soren Hero]

First thing that leaps to mind is Golem creation. Which isn't inherently evil... despite the fact that Golems are explicitly powered by enslaved elementals...

I'm sure there's a "Brain Golem" out there. Though I cannot remember what it is in.

brain golems are in Lords of Madness (the book of Aberrations). they are spawned by Elder Brains, and are 8ft tall.

[JusticeZero]

It really won't matter that much that it's an [evil] spell, really. All that really means is that she has to be careful not to stand in front of any Miko-esque paladins or clerics casting Holy Word or the like until she does enough goodygoody stuff to placate the powers that be. Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive.

[Jeff the Green]

It really won't matter that much that it's an [evil] spell, really. All that really means is that she has to be careful not to stand in front of any Miko-esque paladins or clerics casting Holy Word or the like until she does enough goodygoody stuff to placate the powers that be. Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Well, it does, actually. Since she's a cleric, she can't cast it until she slips to the lower 2/3 of the alignment chart. And, like I said, it's more to give the other player a plausible reason to not pre-emptively flip-out.

[andromax]

Real life doctors take dead patient's brains for medical examination/experimentation on a daily basis. It's not evil unless you kill them just to take their brain. The evil descriptor on the spell is another matter entirely.

But uh.. she's a cleric and if she has enough ranks in heal she can say it's for science and that'll pretty much justify most things.

[Ashtagon]

Real life doctors take dead patient's brains for medical examination/experimentation on a daily basis. It's not evil unless you kill them just to take their brain. The evil descriptor on the spell is another matter entirely.

But uh.. she's a cleric and if she has enough ranks in heal she can say it's for science and that'll pretty much justify most things.

a) She's not a doctor.
b) She really did kill him to take his brain (as I understand it).
c) No real world cleric of any major established religion ever took brains "for science". I don't think any written up good D&D deity would condone it either. Clerics are not scientists, and in the real world have a long tradition of being opposed to science. "For science" is a trope more associated with wizards anyway.

[Berenger]

So desecrating a corpse is evil? Would that make organ transplants evil as well?

Organ donation, among other things, is better when the passive side gave consent. :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

It's not obviously evil like summoning a demon or creating undead. You just eat part of their brain and have a 25% chance of learning any given fact that they knew while they were alive. She only heard about it from another cleric of Kelemvor, who worshipped Myrkul and Cyric before they lost the portfolio, and he didn't elaborate much.
BoVD (the source of the spell) elaborates on what makes a spell truly evil. I believe the example they give is something like - a scorching ray is not evil just because it causes suffering, but a spell that draws on energy from the Nine Hells to create an identical laser beam would be evil, because devils are evil.

In the same vein, absorb mind is evil not because it lets you read a creature's memories. It's evil because you have to engage in cannibalism to do so.

[Slipperychicken]

My cleric of Kelemvor took the brain of one of her enemies to cast absorb mind from the BoVD. She's Good and so can't cast it (yet), but she doesn't realize it's an [Evil] spell.


Killing a Good creature in order to harvest its organs or parts is an evil act. Same goes for Murder -"the killing of a creature for a nefarious purpose". It lists theft, personal gain, and perverse pleasure as examples.


What failed checks and confusion of ideas led your Cleric to look at a spell which comes from the Corruption domain and involves eating someone's brain, then decide that it isn't Evil? :smallconfused:

[Flickerdart]

What failed checks and confusion of ideas led your Cleric to look at a spell which comes from the Corruption domain and involves eating someone's brain, then decide that it isn't Evil? :smallconfused:
"Corrupt" isn't a domain designation. It's a type of spell that is so heinously evil that simply casting it drains your body of health.

[Urpriest]

c) No real world cleric of any major established religion ever took brains "for science". I don't think any written up good D&D deity would condone it either. Clerics are not scientists, and in the real world have a long tradition of being opposed to science. "For science" is a trope more associated with wizards anyway.

Xammux would, but that's kind of the exception that proves the rule.

Anyway, Clerics can pray for any spell on their list, which implies that they have some sort of instinctive knowledge of how they all work (otherwise, how do they ever know what spells to ask for?) So you probably know the spell is [Evil].

[Slipperychicken]

"Corrupt" isn't a domain designation. It's a type of spell that is so heinously evil that simply casting it drains your body of health.

Yeah... it seems like the kind of thing an easy Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) check would turn up. DC 15-20 at most.

[Jack_Simth]

She's doing this on behalf of another party member she just met, who would probably be squicked out, at the very least, if he knew what she was going to try to do. He knows that she took the brain, but is there a non-evil explanation for taking it?
Awaken Construct spell (it'll be a long time before you can cast *that* though).

[Jeff the Green]

Anyway, Clerics can pray for any spell on their list, which implies that they have some sort of instinctive knowledge of how they all work (otherwise, how do they ever know what spells to ask for?) So you probably know the spell is [Evil].

I kind of went with deliberately failing that Spellcraft check for the sake of the story. They can also prepare whatever they want; they just can't cast spells opposed to their alignment.

[Phelix-Mu]

More to the point, if you know how to cast the spell once you prepare it, then you'd know the corruption component, in this case 2d6 Wisdom damage. It would be very weird if a cleric didn't realize that a corrupt spell that requires the ingestion of body parts (tantamount to cannibalism if not actually thus) isn't evil.

That the character realizes that the other character is all squicky about this means that the cleric knows that the spell is sketchy, and it's pretty fail Wisdom check to not realize the implications of gaining power by eating other creatures (people as a means to an end...textbook evil), not to mention the mind-warping side effects of the spell (get smart, then feel stupid).

This is a very unusual situation. I know that Kelemvor sits a little bit unusually relative to the issue of Death, but I'd think desecration of bodies (by, say, eating them) would be pretty no-no.

[RedDragons]

My cleric of Kelemvor took the brain of one of her enemies to cast absorb mind from the BoVD. She's Good and so can't cast it (yet), but she doesn't realize it's an [Evil] spell.

She's doing this on behalf of another party member she just met, who would probably be squicked out, at the very least, if he knew what she was going to try to do. He knows that she took the brain, but is there a non-evil explanation for taking it?



Kelm is a Neutral God, would seem neutrall, that a good aligned cleric would in time turn neutral also, so let him cast the spell and become more like his god.

[Flickerdart]

I kind of went with deliberately failing that Spellcraft check for the sake of the story.
It seems like there should be a "wilful ignorance" check for something like this, with a preposterously high DC because it should be obvious that spells requiring cannibalism are evil.

[chronomatophobe]

So desecrating a corpse is evil? Would that make organ transplants evil as well?

Hospitals call them "anatomic gifts" and not "these meaty things I stole" because they're contingently given--not taken callously

but it really depends on the morality of the overseeing body, be it church or otherwise.

[Ashtagon]

Xammux would, but that's kind of the exception that proves the rule.

Since when was Xammux a good deity?


Anyway, Clerics can pray for any spell on their list, which implies that they have some sort of instinctive knowledge of how they all work (otherwise, how do they ever know what spells to ask for?) So you probably know the spell is [Evil].

Way I'm reading all this, the player didn't realise it was an evil spell. But the character certainly should have known that.

[Urpriest]

Since when was Xammux a good deity?


Ah, missed the word "good" in your post.

[kreenlover]

way I see it, you have basically no recourse here. Unless you take the brain, and actually start cutting it up (with consistent heal checks) then there is no way you can claim it for science. However, if you do that, then you could claim that it will help you should you ever have to reassemble a brain after fighting mind eating thingies or some such. Basically, claiming for science seems to be the best way. But then you need to back that up with actually doing it for science
Then doing it for science again, and again, and again
Either that, or hide the brain :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

way I see it, you have basically no recourse here. Unless you take the brain, and actually start cutting it up (with consistent heal checks) then there is no way you can claim it for science. However, if you do that, then you could claim that it will help you should you ever have to reassemble a brain after fighting mind eating thingies or some such. Basically, claiming for science seems to be the best way. But then you need to back that up with actually doing it for science
Then doing it for science again, and again, and again
Either that, or hide the brain :smalltongue:
"I am preserving the sample until I have access to suitable instruments/knowledge for the experiments I wish to perform."

[Slipperychicken]

way I see it, you have basically no recourse here. Unless you take the brain, and actually start cutting it up (with consistent heal checks) then there is no way you can claim it for science. However, if you do that, then you could claim that it will help you should you ever have to reassemble a brain after fighting mind eating thingies or some such. Basically, claiming for science seems to be the best way. But then you need to back that up with actually doing it for science
Then doing it for science again, and again, and again
Either that, or hide the brain :smalltongue:

The spell only needs a small unit of brain to work. I think it was one ounce.

You could also say it's a trophy, which is IMO more plausible and less evil-sounding. Especially if you can accumulate a bunch of dried brains on a string as evidence.

Or say that you have a domain power which gives you intelligence from eating fresh brains, constitution from hearts, and strength from muscles.

[Urpriest]

Can you pretend better knowledge of the bad guy's culture than your partymate? If so, how about claiming this is so you can perform the proper burial ritual, involving preserving the brain separately? As a Cleric of Kelemvor, performing the correct burial for a notable foe should be well within your mandate.

[kreenlover]

"I am preserving the sample until I have access to suitable instruments/knowledge for the experiments I wish to perform."

This too.

You could also say until you have a lab or something. Again, go with the whole, "for science" thing, and go all the way with it. Take a few ranks of knowledge(biology) or profession(surgeon) to back that up. You never know when it might be helpful to know exactly where to stab that small butter knife to do the most damage to someone :smallwink: (by the way, I think its the jugular. talking as a not bio student here)

And profession surgeon should give you a synchrony bonus to heal, so that would help with that

[Ashtagon]

The spell only needs a small unit of brain to work. I think it was one ounce.

You could also say it's a trophy, which is IMO more plausible and less evil-sounding. Especially if you can accumulate a bunch of dried brains on a string as evidence.

Or say that you have a domain power which gives you intelligence from eating fresh brains, constitution from hearts, and strength from muscles.

According to the BoVD, such a domain would be inherently Evil. You know, the whole cannibalism thing.

[Phelix-Mu]

A corrupt spell is pretty much the evil of evil. Not only do you violate someone else to gain power, but you also violate yourself (2d6 Wisdom damage). I know that the character can try to refluff this, but...still....

It is totally weird that Kelemvor would grant this spell, deity of death and *reading entry in Faiths and Pantheons*...yeah, all of that stuff seems like it would be a big vote for "no cannibalism." Being worshiped by morticians and allowing desecration of a body seem mutually exclusive.

Of course, the cleric is free to do what the cleric wants, but the motivation here (I think something like "going along with the game" was mentioned) is beyond me. I think we need some elaboration from the OP about why this is at all desirable (especially since a cleric stands to mentally cripple himself/herself by casting this spell...).

The spell is also terribly written in BoVD. The brain is both a focus, but also seems to be consumed in the process of using the spell (which is pretty strange for a focus). There are doubtless better ways of delving into the knowledge of the dead.

[kreenlover]

Another important question, not sure if this has been addressed already, but this is an evil spell.
The cleric worships a good deity.
Even should said deity grant said spell to said cleric, how do you plan on atoning? :smallconfused:
because I'm pretty sure casting an evil spell breaks the faith, or whatever term you want to use, and forces you to lose ALL casting until you atone. Now, after your buddy sees you devour a brain for no particular reason, who will argue for you to be brought back into your own religion? and if you try you will probably commit some major faux pas with your massive wisdom damage.
So, I think a more important question is, unless you are using the Eberron system of worship, is what deity do you want to worship next, and where do you find a cleric who can cast atonement?

[Phelix-Mu]

Another important question, not sure if this has been addressed already, but this is an evil spell.
The cleric worships a good deity.
Even should said deity grant said spell to said cleric, how do you plan on atoning? :smallconfused:


The OP wasn't exactly clear, but he/she seemed to be implying that the character had prepared the spell only, and that no actual intent to cast the spell was clear yet.

Now, my response to this, if what I just said is true, was "what?"

More to the point, Kelemvor grants the spell, which is then put into the mind of the cleric. Now the power is the cleric's. Why is Kelemvor giving the cleric the power to do evil? Or, on a more practical standpoint, why is Kelemvor giving the cleric a tool that will make the cleric a weaker cleric? Silly gods, I guess. Tricks are for kids!:smallconfused:

[Jeff the Green]

So, I apparently haven't been quite clear. My character has no intention of deceiving the other character. The question is whether there is another explanation the other character could come up with other than "eat it" for why she took it.

We've already established in-game that clerics don't automatically know the details of every spell they can cast. Due largely to me being an idiot and then making an ass of myself, my cleric wasn't entirely sure how much damage a corpse could take and still have speak with dead work. And in any case, she would think that it's absurd that it's [Evil] if she knew.


More to the point, if you know how to cast the spell once you prepare it, then you'd know the corruption component, in this case 2d6 Wisdom damage. It would be very weird if a cleric didn't realize that a corrupt spell that requires the ingestion of body parts (tantamount to cannibalism if not actually thus) isn't evil.

That the character realizes that the other character is all squicky about this means that the cleric knows that the spell is sketchy, and it's pretty fail Wisdom check to not realize the implications of gaining power by eating other creatures (people as a means to an end...textbook evil), not to mention the mind-warping side effects of the spell (get smart, then feel stupid).

This is a very unusual situation. I know that Kelemvor sits a little bit unusually relative to the issue of Death, but I'd think desecration of bodies (by, say, eating them) would be pretty no-no.


A corrupt spell is pretty much the evil of evil. Not only do you violate someone else to gain power, but you also violate yourself (2d6 Wisdom damage). I know that the character can try to refluff this, but...still....

It is totally weird that Kelemvor would grant this spell, deity of death and *reading entry in Faiths and Pantheons*...yeah, all of that stuff seems like it would be a big vote for "no cannibalism." Being worshiped by morticians and allowing desecration of a body seem mutually exclusive.

Of course, the cleric is free to do what the cleric wants, but the motivation here (I think something like "going along with the game" was mentioned) is beyond me. I think we need some elaboration from the OP about why this is at all desirable (especially since a cleric stands to mentally cripple himself/herself by casting this spell...).

The spell is also terribly written in BoVD. The brain is both a focus, but also seems to be consumed in the process of using the spell (which is pretty strange for a focus). There are doubtless better ways of delving into the knowledge of the dead.

Really? Are we reading the same thing? 'Cause the only two things I see Kelemvor worrying about the bodies for are the comfort of the still living (irrelevant in this case) and preventing the rise of undead. Everything else is about the safe arrival of the soul in the Fugue Plane and making people not afraid of dying.

My cleric has a strong motivation to get this new party member working with the group, and he seems very interested in the relationship between our now-dead enemy and the Red Wizards. In part because she screwed up, they didn't get a chance to interrogate the enemies before they were killed.

And, at the moment, this is her only option. She took the brain and then the bodies disappeared.


It seems like there should be a "wilful ignorance" check for something like this, with a preposterously high DC because it should be obvious that spells requiring cannibalism are evil.

Why? Even the Book of Icky Things doesn't call out cannibalism as evil. Murder, sure, but the spell doesn't require that the brain's owner have died a violent death.

[kreenlover]

SO THEN WHY ARE YOU WORRIED?!? :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

sorry, but it seems like what you are saying is

"I don't want to lie, and this isn't evil, but my buddy is grossed out, and so I want to lie to him to make him feel better without lying"

There is no other option. I mean, of course you could tell them that you want to cast an evil spell that involves cannibalism so that you can learn what you want to know since you screwed up and mutilated the corpses too badly to talk to them, but those seem to be your only options here.
There is no other explanation for this unless you are just really vague and say "Oh, well, its a component in a spell which involves me learning the things that the brain knew"
And I still think you should have a contingency atonement plan in place, since unless the DM is very liberal on the gods actions, you will be getting no spells until you atone

[Shining Wrath]

It's not obviously evil like summoning a demon or creating undead. You just eat part of their brain and have a 25% chance of learning any given fact that they knew while they were alive. She only heard about it from another cleric of Kelemvor, who worshipped Myrkul and Cyric before they lost the portfolio, and he didn't elaborate much.

I guess it depends upon DM, but I would tend to rule that cannibalism ranks pretty high on the no-no list.

Taking a body part as a trophy I can see as neutral - it's more uncivilized or impolite than evil. The decerebrated person can still be raised et cetera. But eating your foes? No, I'm afraid that's pretty evil.

[Jeff the Green]

SO THEN WHY ARE YOU WORRIED?!? :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

sorry, but it seems like what you are saying is

"I don't want to lie, and this isn't evil, but my buddy is grossed out, and so I want to lie to him to make him feel better without lying"

Read my last post again:


So, I apparently haven't been quite clear. My character has no intention of deceiving the other character. The question is whether there is another explanation the other character could come up with other than "eat it" for why she took it.

The other character knows about the spell, but his player doesn't know if there's another possible reason his character might know about. It will make things easier in general if he can come up with something, but it's not necessary.

[kreenlover]

sorry, the rage was unnecessary. I misread what you said.

Again, all I can think of is maybe veiling the truth a little. There is no other reason you could have taken his brain unless you have exhibited similar behaviour in the past

[Bakeru]

The "Proper burial"/"That guy's culture had weird burial rites that demand that the brain is preserved, and as a cleric of a god who concerns himself with putting the dead to rest, it is my obligation to follow such rites"-reason someone mentioned before seems good.

Or, from the point of the other guy who's supposed to come to the wrong conclusion: "Huh, oh well, maybe that's a thing where that guy came from."

[Slipperychicken]

"What do you mean cannibalism is Evil? People all over the world do it, and you know what? We aren't Evil! Go ahead, cast Detect Evil on me, I dare you! Once you get that fact through your thick f***ing skull, maybe you could stop being such an ignorant prick for five minutes and realize some people do things differently than you!"