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Jon_Dahl
2013-03-31, 07:46 AM
How do you handle laws in fantasy games? What kind of laws and punishments do you have?

My system:

REPARATIONS
Reparations must be paid for damages to material goods if the worth can easily measured in silver/gold pieces.
Men must pay reparations for adultery (half of their wealth, followed by a divorce).

FINES
Maximum 5 gp, usually much less. Amount is usually highly arbitrary.
Disorderly conduct, brawling, unruly behaviour towards official authority, indiscreet use of magic, minor material damage of public property, violating a curfew, customs violation, pickpocketing, indirect insult of a member of nobility, lesser blasphemy, hazardous negligence, galloping in a population center, illegal gambling, illegal threat, possession of thieves' tools, using disguise to cover one's identity and aiding in crime.

Fines: maximum of 500 gp.
Bribery, tax fraud.

Inability to pay the fine: Two lashes for every unpaid silver piece (given publicly).

FORCED LABOUR AT STONE QUARRIES
Up to two years.
Three incidents of repeating a minor offense, inflicting permanent bodily harm, public slandering of nobility, some cases of involuntary homicide, illegal dueling, resisting official authority, rebelling, brigandry, piracy, burglary, unlawful trapmaking, major blasphemy, slavery, embezzlement, extortion and oath breaking.

If the offender is unfit for manual labour or has known allies that could help the offender escape the quarries or if the quarries are currently full: Five lashes for every week of intended week of forced labour, after which the offender is exiled.

CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
The offender is kept indefinite time in dungeons before execution.
Fugitives, habitual criminals, traitors, sodomites, deserters, rapists, killers and murderers, inflicting bodily harm to a member of nobility, necromancy (cantrips are allowed), summoning evil creatures, possession of poison, conspirators, evil cultists, imposing oneself as a noble and spies.
Also leaders of criminal gangs or organizations of any size (two members or more) are always executed, without exception.

The following are not crimes or misdemeanors:
Urinating in public, libel, domestic violence and animal abuse.

Unusually dangerous criminals:
In case of powerful magic users and others whom are difficult detain, the magistrate may make an exception and either pardon the criminal, fine him/her or summarily execute him/her without delay.

Female criminals:
Abortion, indecency, adultery or infanticide.
Branding and exile.

Zombimode
2013-03-31, 08:25 AM
Uhm, do you really have just one law system, regardless of where the PCs actually are?


In my games laws and law enforcement systems are always localized. Most of the time, its not very fleshed out and kinda the same: most human/humanlike societies find the same stuff offensive.

Most of the time I don't bother with an intricate offense - punishment system. It is not going to be relevant in game most of the time anyways. Also, many of the rather archaic societies I typically portray in my games don't have such intricate law systems.

Jon_Dahl
2013-03-31, 09:38 AM
Uhm, do you really have just one law system, regardless of where the PCs actually are?.

No, but the kingdom in which they adventure is very large indeed and 90% of the campaign has been spent there. They have occasionally visited other places and planes too where the laws are different (or non-existant). Laws found in the OP are fairly same in all European-style kingdoms, city-states and empires.

Water_Bear
2013-03-31, 09:45 AM
I don't see any need for a really complex system of laws for a fantasy setting; even in areas with written law codes IRL, Judges basically handed out whatever punishments they felt were appropriate anyway.

The one thing I do like is Trials by Combat, Trials by Ordeal and Writs of Outlawry; they're very fun to play out, give some genuine historical flavor, and it's done with quickly enough for the PCs to get back to actually adventuring.

Slipperychicken
2013-03-31, 09:47 AM
I haven't made one, but it seems like you might just want to create a few "crime intensity levels" (1 might be things like littering, 2 would be vandalism and insulting authority figures, 3 would be assault and larceny, 4 would be attempted murder or massive theft, 5 actual murder, etc), which each represent how vigorously the local authorities will pursue and punish offenders, and have a suggested range of punishments (as well as difficulty and frequency of encounters with law enforcement).

Then, whenever it comes up, you roll something (subtract 2 from the base crime intensity level, add 1d3?) to determine the crime's intensity level for the area, and have the authorities react accordingly. If they manage to encounter particularly corrupt/powerful enforcement officials and get on their bad side, add 1d6 to the previously-rolled intensity level of the punishment. Punishments are, of course, cumulative. For example, a PC who convicted of 3 different crimes with the same intensity level would suffer the punishment 3 times (fined 3x, consecutive life sentences, etc).

Humble Master
2013-03-31, 09:53 AM
At least for my campaign the laws are based mostly on what area the PCs are in and the crime. I don't have a written out legal code but if I charge them for stealing by having them pay double the price of the item they stole and getting jailed for a day I write it down so that I charge them the same way next time. I also make harsher punishments for stricter regimes and such.
Also I love laws that deal with magic. For instance in one of my cities Detect spells are illegal for use by non-law enforcement to protect people's privacy.

JoshuaZ
2013-03-31, 10:02 AM
I've haven't put much emphasis on crime and punishment, but in the setting my current campaign is running in, a lot of stuff has revolved around inheritance laws for nobility. There was a subplot involving a noble family where the eldest son was going to inherit the title due to his gender, but his older sister was going to inherit most of the wealth because it originated from when the family were wealthy commoners 150 years before.

Another major aspect has been "magelords"- noble titles which can only be inherited by an heir which is also a mage. This has also lead to complications.

Yora
2013-03-31, 11:06 AM
For more tribal leaning societies, I think taboos are working very well. Certain things are not just improper or forbidden, they cause a damage in the relationship between the material world and the spirit world, and much more important than punishment and penance is to restore the natural order of things. As long as the damage has not been repaired, things are not in balance, resulting in a breakdown of society, health, and plant and animal life, as the spirits that sustain them can't do their job properly.

Such taboos can take the form of rules, that certain people and objects are not allowed in certain places at certain times. Violating these complicated rules is not just offensive to the locals, it's an actual threat to their society. How angry they will get depends a lot on how easy or complicated it is to make things alright again. If the shaman goes "Damn you, I spend three hours yesterday cleansing the shrine, and now you come in here with a ham sandwhich in your bag", it probably won't be too bad if it was a honest mistake. But if the hunters have to kill a wild bull with knives and the shamans apprentice has to make a one week trip up a mountain to get the neccessary things for the proper restoration ritual, they will be really pissed.

In the worst case, the offenders have to be sacrificed to the gods.


Generally, I tend to go with Germanic and Anglo-Saxon law. There is no strict code, but the whole justice system is mostly focused on finding nonviolent soultions to major conflicts. The laws consist mostly on what compensations are considered appropriate to what offense and the socal and economic status of the parties. There are no fines to be payed to the government and no prison sentences. Only for the worst offenses there are the punishments of death and exile, which in an earlier form of society can often be pretty much the same.

Berenger
2013-03-31, 11:29 AM
Some of these laws seem pretty lenient. For example, brigandry and piracy should not be "lesser" offenses than habitual crime or murder as they usually include both.

Be careful with this "x lashes per y money" stuff. Depending on the striking tool, 10+ lashes can maim or outright kill the victim. If this is not intended, include an upper limit of some sort.

How advanced is criminology? What constitutes a "proof" at court? Hearsay? Fingerprints? Testimony under influence of "zone of truth"? Testimony under influence of thumbscrews?

Jon_Dahl
2013-03-31, 11:55 AM
Some of these laws seem pretty lenient. For example, brigandry and piracy should not be "lesser" offenses than habitual crime or murder as they usually include both.

Be careful with this "x lashes per y money" stuff. Depending on the striking tool, 10+ lashes can maim or outright kill the victim. If this is not intended, include an upper limit of some sort.

How advanced is criminology? What constitutes a "proof" at court? Hearsay? Fingerprints? Testimony under influence of "zone of truth"? Testimony under influence of thumbscrews?

You're right. In 99% of the cases brigands and pirates are sentenced to death for murders and rapes, whether they actually committed them or not. In some cases if the brigands were pitiful enough and cannot be taken seriously, they will simply get sentenced for brigandry and nothing else. It's rare though.

I will consider what you said about lashes. I've been thinking something like this but I didn't reach any satisfactory solution.

Proof:
1. Two witnesses who are generally considered reliable and outstanding members of society. 2. Any material evidence (YMMV). 3. Strong opinion of a noble. These are all acceptable.
The suspects are usually beaten and maybe tortured, but in some cases thieves' guilds have engineered unofficial but effective immunity against torture for their members. Torture is usually not excessive and doesn't permanently damage the suspect.
Magic may be used occasionally if rich people were offended. They will pay for this out of their own pockets.

Yora
2013-03-31, 12:18 PM
Also, single violent offenses could get some degree of liency for being unplanned tragedies. Like killing someone in a bar fight or something like that.
As a serial or even professional offender, there is little doubt that it's done on full purpose, with complete awareness of all the consequences.

Ninjadeadbeard
2013-03-31, 12:24 PM
Testimony under influence of thumbscrews?

I believe according to Roman Law, a confession wasn't admissible as evidence unless torture was used to get it. Makes it harder to perjurer yourself. :smallamused:

Rhynn
2013-03-31, 07:00 PM
When I run RuneQuest, it's usually among the Dragon Pass Heortlings, who have a very Dark Ages tribal legal code - it's all about precedent, argument, and what the king, chieftain, or council decides.

Aside from great crimes (secret murder, rape, incest, adultery, etc.), which are punished with outlawry (cutting you off, socially and mytho-magically, from your kith and kin, and removing all protection of law), almost all punishments are either ad hoc (beat him!) or fines (usually paid in cattle and goods, since hardly anyone has or needs coin).

One big theme is weregeld (and ransom) and blood feud: outside of war, my players rarely kill human opponents, because everybody's got somebody, priests can cast divinations, and making an enemy of an entire family (or sometime an entire clan or tribe) is a bad idea. So there's a lot of non-lethal fighting, which is nice, because it means the PCs can lose and the game isn't over. For instance, on one occasion, the PCs were forced to surrender, given a thrashing, and left to their own devices, humiliated, while the enemies went home to brag. (They responded with murder-arson of an entire longhouse, which naturally escalated into a blood feud. Because they are PCs.)

The Imperial occupation, of course, adds a nice twist; attacking Imperial troops means you, your friends, your family, and maybe your clan are crucified. If you escape, you'll be hounded by avenging spirits sent by Imperial priestesses and sorcerers. This means that any attack on Imperial troops must utterly eradicate them. So, on one hand, it makes them unwilling to fight Imperials; on the other, when they have to, they're going to kill every last one of them.

Even with outsiders - from different, often hostile, cultures - the threat of vengeance and the promise of ransom (usually equal to the weregeld) tend to make combat with intelligent opponents not last until one side is entirely eradicated. Surrender is almost always an option for the PCs.

This also emphasizes the heroism of fighting monsters. "Anybody" can fight other people, because they aren't usually looking to kill you or die trying. But fighting monsters, especially unintelligent or undead or Chaotic ones, is crazy dangerous.

Taboos are big, too, although they're more religious than cultural (although religion and culture are closely intertwined in Glorantha). The thing about Gloranthan taboos is that they usually have mythical reasons, and mythical consequences. There's a great published adventure where an accidental incestuous marriage (not its consumation!) causes an entire clan village to be overrun by Chaotic monsters and mutants (and the bride and groom mutate into horrifying but pitiful monsters that do not understand what has happened to them). Aside from incest, kinslaying is the other great evil - no one way commit it without bringing calamity to their entire clan. (Your clan is the largest social unit still considered "kin," and is almost as much so as your bloodline - extended family.) That means that, within their clan, PCs can have nonlethal (but often still violent) rivalries that they can't just shortcut by murdering the other party.


I believe according to Roman Law, a confession wasn't admissible as evidence unless torture was used to get it. Makes it harder to perjurer yourself. :smallamused:

Wasn't the feudal Japanese system sort of the reverse? No sentence could be passed without a confession from the accused - and that could be obtained through torture if necessary.

I've wanted to run a L5R metsuke/magistrate campaign combining Samurai Executioner with Lone Wolf and Cub (or Usagi Yojimbo..) for the longest time.

Beleriphon
2013-04-01, 09:31 AM
Generally, I tend to go with Germanic and Anglo-Saxon law. There is no strict code, but the whole justice system is mostly focused on finding nonviolent soultions to major conflicts. The laws consist mostly on what compensations are considered appropriate to what offense and the socal and economic status of the parties. There are no fines to be payed to the government and no prison sentences. Only for the worst offenses there are the punishments of death and exile, which in an earlier form of society can often be pretty much the same.

Weregilds are awesome things sometimes. They can be used to excellent effect in game since the players have to then negotiate with the wronged party. If they make a big deal about point out that even the Aesir had to pay them to Skadi when they killed her father. She didn't even demand money, she demanded a husband (who she thought was Baldr), her father to be forever memorialized (Odin used the deceased eyes to make stars) and to laugh. The last was achieved by Loki tying his testicles to a billy goat's beard and the two of them circling each other hoping nothing bad happened.

Hyena
2013-04-01, 09:48 AM
domestic violence
Why it shouldn't be a crime? I know, I know, beating your wife was perfectly okay in Middle Ages and only now I counts as abuse and is punished. But it's fantasy, not dark ages simulator - we have female soldiers, wizards and even female kung-fu monks (now THAT'S something I never saw even in fiction). The rights are more... equal.
So why domestic violence should be treated unlike any other violence?

Jay R
2013-04-01, 10:21 AM
In civilized areas, I basically assume English Common Law and nobles with High Justice.

Tribes have their own customs that make sense to me, usually with some historical basis, modified for gaming purposes.

And most adventuring happens wither in the wilderness or on the borders, where the law is not always in control.

Jon_Dahl
2013-04-01, 10:28 AM
Why it shouldn't be a crime? I know, I know, beating your wife was perfectly okay in Middle Ages and only now I counts as abuse and is punished. But it's fantasy, not dark ages simulator - we have female soldiers, wizards and even female kung-fu monks (now THAT'S something I never saw even in fiction). The rights are more... equal.
So why domestic violence should be treated unlike any other violence?

I think the concept of domestic violence is fairly modern. In my system females too can perpetrate domestic violence and not get punished for it. After all, the husband could be a 1st-level commoner and the wife a 4th-level fighter. Turning a blind eye to domestic violence is a flaw in the system and is an example of the backwardness of the system, not a feature that is misogynistic.

But I do see your point, no problem.

Raimun
2013-04-01, 01:24 PM
"No disintegrations."

JackRose
2013-04-01, 01:56 PM
Real life cultures had some odd laws. For example, in Iceland, if you killed a man, you were expected to tell the first person you met afterwards about it, and generally pay the man's family a fee (based on a consensus as to the man's worth, more than a cheiftan for a servant, for example). If you concealed the death, it was a much more serious crime, and more likely to result in outlawry (there also wasn't any sort of police force- the general theory seems to have been that once you were outlawed, the dead man's friends would take care of it if you didn't get out of Iceland, although there are instances of especially fearsome or well liked individuals who served their time of outlawry living brazenly exactly as they otherwise had).

Anderlith
2013-04-01, 03:49 PM
Depending on my world (I have three) Culture is a big thing, as an example in one of my worlds there is a kingdom that reveres the dead, & have a form of ancestor worship. To them destroying bones/defiling a corpse is taboo. Yet many items are carved from the bones of an ancestor... it's complicated.