[PF] Nine Section Whip - Worth taking EWP for a monk?

[Drelua]

It's an exotic monk weapon, and it looks to me like it might be worth taking EWP if you're a monk. It's d8 damage, 19-20 crit range, blocking (+1 AC while fighting defensively), distracting (mostly useless) and, probably most importantly, tripping. Past level 7, if for some reason you take that many monke levels, you'll be losing on your damage die, but being able to use it two-handed should help make up for that.

Plus, blocking is basically a free point of AC if you take Crane Style, and you can take your left hand off of it at the end of your turn so you can still use it to deflect one attack. Thoughts?

[Daftendirekt]

If you're going to use an exotic monk weapon, go for the kusarigama (in the Eastern Weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/eastern-weapons) section). Double weapon which gives you two different damage types to work with, ability to switch between double weapon or reach weapon, and it has the trip and grapple properties if you're going to be doing maneuvers.

[Drelua]

You know, I suppose that's better, but I guess the idea of a kusarigama being a reach weapon, with the sickle end at least, just makes it too dumb for me to consider. Besides, why would I want a double weapon when I can flurry just fine with a nine-section whip and have a hand free?

You're right, but if a kusarigama's not an option for whatever reason, would you be willing to pay a feat for a nine-section whip?

[Daftendirekt]

Well, historically, the sickle end was never the reach part. You held the sickle in one hand and swung the chain with the weighted ball on the end.

Nine-section-whip, though...It's a longsword with the trip property (1d8, 19-20 x2 crit). That's it. Its other properties are not useful at all. Pretty unimpressive for an exotic weapon. The nifty features of a kusarigama make it potentially better in certain situations than your unarmed strike (which ends up doing a lot more damage). There's nothing special about the nine-section-whip.

[Drelua]

I was afraid of that. I guess I just think it's cool and that blinded me to it's extra features not really being all that good. I'll file that under 'deliberate self-nerf because my group can't optimize in the slightest' then. :smallwink:

Thanks for setting me straight.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you want any monk weapon proficiency for something that came out of core or APG, you should dip Unarmed Fighter to gain it.

Yes, it's stupid that a fighter gains proficiency with all monk weapons and a monk only with some due to what is a clear editing mistake. But, thems' the (stupid) RAW.

9 section whip is not great, but it is ok for a Crane style user, who wants his hand free out of turn anyway (during your turn, you can 2H the chain for more damage; changing grip is a free action according to JJ I think, so you can do it during your turn but not out of it) and gets a +1 AC bonus out of it.

EDIT: I have a build idea where dipping Unarmed Fighter is actually pretty optimal, as it then allows you to have Crane Wing and Snake Fang by Unarmed Fighter 1 / Master of Many Styles Monk 2. The question I always ask myself is...where to go from there? Obviously more levels of fighter (and especially) monk is bad. Maybe up to 6 levels in Archaeologist Bard? Maybe Dawnflower Dervish Bard... If paizo had a single decent non-caster prestige class, this would probably be a good foundation for entering it.

[Drelua]

Yeah, I noticed Unarmed Fighter a while ago. It's completely inferior to the Brawler when it comes to, you know, fighting unarmed, but it does make a nice dip.

I was thinking of making a character with a level or two in MoMS Monk too, that's actually what got me thinking about this. I was going to focus Superstitious Urban Barbarian, flurrying with a one-handed weapon that he can use in two hands while still taking advantage of Crane Wing and Snake Style to make him really hard to hit. I figured with that I can use Pushing Assault to knock somebody back 5 feet, full attack them with reach, and take a five foot step back so he can only make one attack, then with Crane Wing I can stop that one attack and repeat. :smallbiggrin:

That reminds me, I was wondering about Pushing Assault (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pushing-assault-combat); if I'm two-handing a one-handed weapon, can I still use the feat? And, more importantly, would you say there's any reason I shouldn't be able to? The fact that Power Attack deliberately includes two-handing a one-handed weapon but Pushing Assault doesn't makes me think they might have done that on purpose, but I can't think of any reason why they would've.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You can certainly make a good 1 vs. 1 duelling character with Crane Wing and Snake Fang. The problem I always run into is, "...why do they keep trying to fight you, instead of going after squishier, more dangerous [when you discount counterattacks from the threat index] PCs?" And PF has much weaker lockdown options than 3E did and actively hates on non-magical aggro generation. I play with DMs who play the non-dumb monsters intelligently, so this is a serious problem, and tends to shelve all of these ideas. (stupid monsters tend to be melee ground pounders that any flight-granting and/or battlefield control caster can auto-win against anyway, so I don't care much about them past early levels)

As for Pushing Assault, it should work fine w/ a 2-handed 1H weapon, I think. Paizo often leaves text out they find redundant in order to save space in books, in my experience. If you're using the weapon in 2 hands, and you're able to do so (ie, it's not a light weapon you're getting no benefit from 2-handing), any thing that works when attacking with a 2H weapon should apply.

[Drelua]

Yeah, I kinda figured I'd have trouble making that trick useful in a lot of fights, but this is a character I'd like to play intelligently, using tactics instead of hitting things 'til they stop moving, and this seemed like a good way to do that. Plus, I'm playing a LE character bent on gaining political power, so I figure I'll be able to challenge a few people to a duel.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You might also want to look at the Rope Dart, which I'm pretty sure only requires one hand to use (don't threaten with it regardless, so doesn't really matter). Combined with unarmed strikes for up close, it gives you like a 15 ft radius you can attack, and also has the blocking property. Weak base damage, but that doesn't really matter as I'm sure you know. You wouldn't be able to 2H for more str to damage, either. In any case, keep it in mind as an option.

Rope Dart does piercing, as does snake style's unarmed strikes. I think my original build idea was to go into Duelist, but...Duelist just sucks so bad, it's still not good. :smallfrown:

I'm not sure it's worth doing Superstitious Urban Barbarian, you fall behind on barb level a bunch, and if you're going to have the big handicap superstitious imparts, you should be trying to get the highest bonus out of it you can (including the human favored class option), IMO.

Since you said urban barb, I guess you were thinking of a dex-based build? If your DM allows the Guided weapon property, you could use that for a wis-based build instead. Guided not only includes wis to attack AND damage in one +1 property, it also gives full wis to off-hand and 2ndary natural weapon damage, which is nice. Can get a +1 Guided Weapon, and a Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists (doesn't need to be +1 first) and TWF with weapon and unarmed, and do natural attacks 2ndary, all with full wisdom to damage.

Otherwise, consider (Vivisectionist and maybe Beastmorph) Alchemist instead. You can use the mutagen to boost dex, and get natural weapons via Feral Mutagen. Can can also grow spare arms to wield a weapon while your other hands grow the claws, so you can use both things in a full attack.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also, I didn't notice before, but you listed Trip as a bonus. In Pathfinder, any weapon can trip and gets weapon bonuses on the check (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9nvd). All a trip weapon does is give you the option to drop it to avoid being tripped. And use it on drag and reposition maneuvers, oddly... All thanks to this blog, which completely changed the rules (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom) for no good reason....typical for paizo, sadly.


There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons).

I'm not sure why the quoted text is not updated in d20pfsrd or the PRD, but it is every bit as "RAW" as the blog declaring that any weapon can trip, and that has been implemented (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Trip).

[Drelua]

Wait, Superstitious is bad? I thought it seemed like a pretty good trade, especially since I was planning on being human anyway. Oh, I probably should have mentioned that I'll most likely be using this in an E12 game, so I'll be losing DR 2/- at most, or 1/- if I dip Monk. It's mostly for the +6 initiative, although the AC in surprise rounds could be helpful since my DM likes to ambush us. I remember one fight where an Assassin jumped out, severed my spine (critical hit deck), Bard cast hold person and the Barbarian killed him. That AC could have saved my spine a lot of trouble. What's this big handicap? And I actually just went with Urban Barbarian for controlled rage to help convince my DM to drop the non-lawful requirement, although I wish I didn't have to lose fast movement to get it. I figure the CON boost isn't too big of a deal since I'll probably die when I'm done raging anyway if I ever need it.

As for the trip thing, I thought that gave a +2 to trip attempts, but apparently not. I'm not sure where I got that from. Rope dart's cool, but I'm not sure it really fits my character.

Although, now I'm not so sure Barbarian fits either. I've looked at just about every class trying to get this character working. I don't know, maybe MoMS Monk 2/Ninja 2/ Ranger 8? That would give me a reason to have decent Charisma, which I'd like to do for a change. I guess that depends on how my DM thinks having Flurry and ITWF from my combat style should work. He might be willing to give me the second extra attack when flurrying only. If not, I'll go with two-handed for Pushing Assault and Furious Focus, maybe? Or I could skip straight to Great Cleave, ignoring Cleave. The extra skill points would be nice. I know I'm kind of jumping all over the place here, but what Ranger archetypes do you think would work?