if you polymorph to a troll do your weapons also increase in size?

[madxnl]

well like the title says, i am a lvl 10 barbarian and i was wondering if i turn myself into a cavetroll do i keep my armor attributes and attributes from other magic items, and does my weapon also increase in size?

thanks in advance

[Invader]

Magical gear should resize to fit you.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Yep. A good place for simple (yes/no or "what if") rules questions would be the Simple Q&A thread for either 3.5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261338) or Pathfinder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270834).

[Deophaun]

Depends.

Wondrous items: Yes. Wondrous items (such as gloves and capes) do magically resize to fit the wearer by default. No other magic is necessary to allow it.

Armor: No. This, actually merges and becomes nonfunctional, as the alter self spell. Why? Because magic armor, unlike a wondrous item, does not resize to fit the wearer by default, and your new form cannot wear medium sized armor.

Weapons: No. These stay the same size, because again, magic weapons do not resize by default, and there is nothing, zero, zip, nadda, in either polymorph or alter self's descriptions that gives it the ability.

[jindra34]

Weapons do not. Unless they have the specific sizing enchanment to do so.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Weapons and armor are targeted by the size changing magic just as much as you are and do resize, though they return to their normal size as soon as they leave your possession.

The rules are clear and there is precedent.

Enlarge Person: "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell."
"Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size."

Reduce Person: "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly reduced by the spell."
"Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size."

Makes it pretty clear what happens with size changing magic.

Alter Self: "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size."
Ok, so the Alter Self rules Polymorph is based upon can involve size changing.

"When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way."

Relevant part underlined. Whether the equipment stays on or melds is determined by if the new form can wear it. Well, clearly that means if the form doesn't match (ie, you have tentacles instead of hands, no gloves for you), the item is melding. Does it apply to the size of the items, as per the precedent set by enlarge/reduce person, or does it not change the size of items at all and only work if your new form is the same size? Hmm, I guess that one could go either way...

"Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form."

Oh, wait, nevermind. This sentence completely clears up any possible confusion! If the equipment was not being changed in size (it can't change shape, as per the part about the form needing to be able to wear such an item, so we can rule that out), why would they need to mention equipment leaving your person returning to "its true form"? If the spell doesn't alter the item at all, it's already IN its true form.

It says "any piece of equipment," not "any piece of equipment except armor or weapons, which obviously don't change size, like...duh!"

[Deophaun]

The rules are clear and there is precedent.Your argument is ridiculous. It's akin to arguing that enervation deals 4d6 fire damage because of the precident set by scorching ray. Polymorph in no way shape or form references enlarge or reduce, and neither of those spells reference polymorph. Hence, they are irrelevent to how polymorph works.

[Flickerdart]

It says "any piece of equipment," not "any piece of equipment except armor or weapons, which obviously don't change size, like...duh!"
Why would it need to say that? That's not how rules work. With this same logic, we can take any rule that works off another, established rule, and say that since they don't remind us about that rule every step of the way, it doesn't exist. Every single ability in the game would need to contain within itself the entire game's rules.

[ksbsnowowl]

Stream of the Sky is correct.

[Jeraa]

Except he is not. Enlarge and Reduce Person resize armor and weapons because they specifically say they do. Alter Self (and Polymorph) don't say that, so they don't resize weapons and armor. They are different spells - they don't have to follow the same rules.

The FAQ even answers this question, on page 86. Just a small portion:


Similarly, armor (even magic armor) doesn’t resize to fit wearers of different sizes. The human described above loses the benefit of his +1 full plate armor as it melds into his body, even though the new form is capable of wearing armor.

As long as your new form can hold weapons (that is, it has hands or other similarly dexterous extremities), you hold on to whatever weapons you had before the change. However, since the weapons are no longer of a size appropriate to you, you take a penalty on attack rolls with them as described on page 113 of the PH. A human polymorphed into a troll can still hold his Medium weapons (although they’re now one size category too small for optimal use and thus he’ll suffer a –2 penalty on attack rolls). On the plus side, he can now wield that Medium greatsword with only one hand, meaning he could pick up a shield or a second weapon to wield simultaneously.

If your barbarian is regularly polymorphed into a troll or stone giant, you might want to consider carrying an extra Large weapon for use in those situations.

*The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer specifically to spells that rely on the polymorph or alter self spell to adjudicate their effect (including alter self, polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange), psionic powers based on the metamorphosis power (including metamorphosis and greater metamorphosis), and any other effect based on either of these lists.

Polymorph does not resize armor and weapons. The rules don't say it happens (or even implies it, really), and the FAQ agrees.



"Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form."

Oh, wait, nevermind. This sentence completely clears up any possible confusion! If the equipment was not being changed in size (it can't change shape, as per the part about the form needing to be able to wear such an item, so we can rule that out), why would they need to mention equipment leaving your person returning to "its true form"? If the spell doesn't alter the item at all, it's already IN its true form.

Because, aside from magical armor and armor, all other worn magical items do automatically resize to fit the wearer. Thats a function of them being magical items, not a function of the spell.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The FAQ is wrong more than it is correct. It is not RAW, and I actually re-think my view on something when it agrees with me, because by sheer odds that means I'm probably wrong.

The fact that magic weapons and armor don't re-size to fit a wearer who puts them on has nothing to do with whether a magic spell that affects you and all of your gear and changes your size... causes those weapons and armor to re-size. Polymorph and Alter Self do not say one way or the other, but do not allow items to change shape to fit your form, but DO get altered from their "true form". Enlarge and Reduce, and basically any size changing spell that bothers to mention it says weapons do change size with you, setting a precedent. The alternative is some size changing magic that also affects your gear does resize weapons, and some size changing magic that also affects your gear does not resize weapons.

[LTwerewolf]

The precedent that it's setting is that they must state that it does in order for it to do so. Polymorph and alter self make no such statement. Enlarge person and etc. specify that they do because it is outside the norm.

[TuggyNE]

The precedent that it's setting is that they must state that it does in order for it to do so. Polymorph and alter self make no such statement. Enlarge person and etc. specify that they do because it is outside the norm.

This, in sum, is the correct view of this situation.

The FAQ happens to be correct in this case (broken clock, twice a day, that kind of thing).

[Clericzilla]

The FAQ is wrong more than it is correct. It is not RAW, and I actually re-think my view on something when it agrees with me, because by sheer odds that means I'm probably wrong.
.

You and me both brotha

[LTwerewolf]

"They said it so it must be wrong" is a very poor way to look at anything. They're right every once in awhile, they're not every once in awhile.

[Semada]

I know this is an old thread, but I found this and felt it might help a lot in this debate.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a

"In general, a change from one form that has a humanoid shape to another form that has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The subject's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form. The spellcaster can change minor details in your equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration."

Skip Williams speaks so it must be so....

[Curmudgeon]

The FAQ is wrong more than it is correct. It is not RAW, and I actually re-think my view on something when it agrees with me, because by sheer odds that means I'm probably wrong.
That's actually not the case; the FAQ answers are right most of the time. (There are a lot of questions with fairly obvious answers in there.)

Skip Williams speaks so it must be so....
... and that's why the FAQ gets such a bad reputation: Skip tended to crank out a mix of RAW answers, house rules, and the result of his (provably imperfect) memory. In short, there's sufficient reason to distrust everything he wrote until you've verified it for yourself.