Dragon lair security?

[Jon_Dahl]

While a dragon is away from his or her lair, is the lair (almost) completely vulnerable to invaders?
I've been thinking about this and I don't see that they have any reliable or functioning way to prevent anyone walking into the their lair and taking what they want. Only environmental things can hinder the discovery of the lair: On a top of a highest mountain or a bottom of an ocean. Other than that, it's a big, visible hole; free to enter and loot all you want.

Please tell me that I'm wrong.

[Clericzilla]

While a dragon is away from his or her lair, is the lair (almost) completely vulnerable to invaders?
I've been thinking about this and I don't see that they have any reliable or functioning way to prevent anyone walking into the their lair and taking what they want. Only environmental things can hinder the discovery of the lair: On a top of a highest mountain or a bottom of an ocean. Other than that, it's a big, visible hole; free to enter and loot all you want.

Please tell me that I'm wrong.

I forget what spells a dragon gets but...

There is always spellcasters who have made friends with the dragon casting protective wards and such on the lair.

Hell one side plot had our group essentially babysitting an egg and the baby daddy for a mother dragon while she went off to find medicine for her baby daddy (which btw did not turn out to be another dragon....). Hell of a time that was.... Fun too.

[Flickerdart]

Many dragons can transform into smaller creatures (either with Alternate Form or a Polymorph-type spell). Those that can't yet cast such spells are usually small enough that they can have a small cave entrance. Dragons can also put up traps, including magical traps, and many have minions precisely for guarding their lair.

Frankly, the very appearance of a dragon's lair should incite dread into any adventurer cowardly enough to try and rob it without the dragon present, because the dragon's going to notice that something has been stolen, and then it will track you down and eat you.

[Waker]

Dragons have access to magic, environmental dangers and servitor races. The exact resources depend on the type of dragon and age. But it wouldn't be at all unreasonable for a dragon to ward their layer with alarms, traps, flood it with water/acid/lava/sand, and have the perimeter guarded by kobolds/lizardfolk/half-dragons. There are many options available.

[Clericzilla]

Dragons have access to magic, environmental dangers and servitor races. The exact resources depend on the type of dragon and age. But it wouldn't be at all unreasonable for a dragon to ward their layer with alarms, traps, flood it with water/acid/lava/sand, and have the perimeter guarded by kobolds/lizardfolk/half-dragons. There are many options available.

Which reminds me....

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

:smallamused:

[Namfuak]

Dragons might also make it so that accessing their lair is a pain due to its location. A dragon my group encountered had two entrances to its hoard, one being trekking through undead/monster infested ruins and getting past a magically sealed and trapped door, and the other being flying in (which presumably also had some security, although at the time we weren't high enough level to reliably fly).

[Crake]

Any dragon with access to 4th level spells should have hallucinatory terrain available to cast to obfuscate their lair entrance

[Flickerdart]

As sorcerers and very wealthy creatures, using a spell known on such a thing is too high a price to pay. Any dragon can get a few scrolls of permanent image to do the job. A single scroll hits 170 cubic feet of terrain. While hallucinatory terrain has about triple the coverage, it must be renewed constantly, and takes a long time to cast. At 1650gp per scroll, being able to afford a few is well within the budget of all but the weakest dragons.

[Zombimode]

While a dragon is away from his or her lair, is the lair (almost) completely vulnerable to invaders?
I've been thinking about this and I don't see that they have any reliable or functioning way to prevent anyone walking into the their lair and taking what they want. Only environmental things can hinder the discovery of the lair: On a top of a highest mountain or a bottom of an ocean. Other than that, it's a big, visible hole; free to enter and loot all you want.

Please tell me that I'm wrong.

1. Cave entrances are not all that visible. Sure, if you stand just a couple of 100 meters away and if there are no concealing features like trees, rocks or the landscape itself. But if you just aimlessly walk in the countryside, you will probably miss the one dragon lair in the 100 km² space the lair is located (and thats a very generous estimate. In many settings, dragons are so rare that the chances are very low to just stumble upon a lair by chance). Just don't use video game geography and you'll be fine.

2. Even IF someone finds the lair, this someone does probably not know that the dragon is not at home. In many D&D settings, caves are the home for quite dangerous creatures. You just don't walk into one without finding out what exactly lives there. And if you have reasons to think that is the lair of a dragon, running is probably the best course of action for most creature.

3. Even IF someone finds the lair, determines it as a dragons lair and knows (or at least assumes) that the dragon is out, how many people would have the balls to steal from a dragon? Creatures that are know to really cling on their hoards? It's probably a safe assumption that the dragon will take great measures to track the thief down. Or just destroy any humanoid settlement within a 100 km radius.

Bottom line: because dragons are so friggin powerful, they don't really need much in terms of safety for their treasure. Few creatures are brave/stupid enough to steal from a dragon. And in the few cases it happens, it probably has grave consequences for the thief and/or lots of other creatures.

BUT:

4. Dragons are powerful and intelligent creatures. It is certainly within their capabilities to set up guards and/or traps.

[kreenlover]

Which reminds me....

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

:smallamused:

You are awesome. I thought that no one else liked that article.

Tangent aside, of course they can set guards. As people say, the fear of reprisal is guard enough alone. But alliances with other monsters, servitor monsters, dragons being more like sorcerers than dragons, and having that massive hoard means that they can set guards, summon monsters, leave traps, weave wards, hide their hoard, use their hoard to buy things to hide hoard/protect hoard/destroy thieves.

So the short answer is no, the treasure will never be unprotected. Unless the treasure is hallucinatory, and will only serve to 100 years of explosive runes you as soon as you read the note in draconic saying "Gotcha"

[Phippster]

I actually devised a situation like this in a game not too long ago. One of the PCs was a minor Elven noble. Her father asked her and the rest of the party to take care of a blue dragon that had taken up residence on the northern half of the island. After fighting through bands of feral elves the dragon had forced to guard his lair, they found nothing waiting for them but a cave-in trap. The dragon had actually left and dominated the father to force them to leave so he could cement his control.

Point is, you probably aren't playing a dragon effectively if they can get into its lair easily. Kobolds borderline worship dragons, getting bands of them to protect their lair isn't a long shot by any means. More powerful creatures could likely be bribed with small trinkets from their horde if they were intelligent, or the dragon could merely force them into servitude through sheer power. Dragons can also change shape and form as natural spellcasters, as well as having the ability to disguise the entrance with various spells. And, considering their intelligence, it wouldn't be out of place for dragons to set up traps that only they knew how to bypass. Some kind of trap that managed to cast Arcane Mark on anyone that walks through it would help them get anything back that was stolen, too.

[Deophaun]

Short answer is: they don't need to.

As Zombimode stated, they are more than powerful enough to wipe out humanoid settlements, and they are intelligent. A dragon simply makes its presence known to the local ruler, and holds the kingdom responsible for any theft. This places the entire resources of a kingdom at the dragon's disposal for the safeguarding of its horde, and without the dragon having to expend any resources up front. Later, if some daft halfling with a ring of invisibility manages to make off with a shiny, the dragon goes and holds the local princess hostage until the shiny is returned. Well, that's the tradition, anyway, and dragons are big on tradition.

So, if you have a kingdom where even discussing the whereabouts of a local dragon's horde is not punishable by death, the dragon is doing it wrong.

[Humble Master]

Another method for dragons is simply hire people to run the dragons errands. Need to intimidate the local king? Send your half-dragon son to beat him around a bit. Want more minions? Send your hired muscle to kidnap some people. Generally speaking I say that dragons won't do anything themselves unless their presence absolutely demands it.

[Flickerdart]

Short answer is: they don't need to.

As Zombimode stated, they are more than powerful enough to wipe out humanoid settlements, and they are intelligent. A dragon simply makes its presence known to the local ruler, and holds the kingdom responsible for any theft. This places the entire resources of a kingdom at the dragon's disposal for the safeguarding of its horde, and without the dragon having to expend any resources up front. Later, if some daft halfling with a ring of invisibility manages to make off with a shiny, the dragon goes and holds the local princess hostage until the shiny is returned. Well, that's the tradition, anyway, and dragons are big on tradition.

So, if you have a kingdom where even discussing the whereabouts of a local dragon's horde is not punishable by death, the dragon is doing it wrong.
Lawful dragons (especially Lawful Good dragons) would definitely collaborate with local authorities to some extent. However, Chaotic (especially Chaotic Evil) dragons would probably prefer to take care of their problems personally and engage in a rather more fiery relationship with the nearby kingdoms.

[TuggyNE]

I forget what spells a dragon gets but...

Most dragons get Sorcerer casting; many can also select Cleric spells and certain domain spells. Some use psionics, or other subsystems (I'm pretty sure there's at least a couple that use Incarnum). A few don't have any spells at all, but I think those usually don't actually have lairs as such, either.

[Deophaun]

Lawful dragons (especially Lawful Good dragons) would definitely collaborate with local authorities to some extent...
As presented, it's blackmail, not collaboration.

But I don't know why I didn't expect a joke about kidnapped princesses being a key to horde security to bring out some hot-button topic. :tongue:

[Seharvepernfan]

1. It's got a dragon. It doesn't get more secure than that.

2. Obviously, it doesn't need to be especially visible.

3. The dragon could easily use its size and strength to put a gigantic boulder right on the entrance, to both conceal it and prevent entry. Or it could fill it with dirt/mud/sand/whatever when gone or at home.

4. It could have a servant tribe of goblins/kobolds/orcs/giants/whatever, again, to both conceal the entrance (that's not the dragons lair! that's a goblin camp!) and prevent entry.

5. The dragon (or its servants) could build any manner of mechanical and/or magical traps.

6. The dragon (or its servants) could put illusions over the entrance, and mislead any scrying attempts.

7. The dragon, with its vast age, insane mental abilities, numerous skill points, and spellcasting, could manipulate and control kingdoms, destroying records of its' own existence, punishing/disappearing folk who talk about it, cover its lair with a freakin' castle in the middle of the capital city, or just flat out be the king. Whatcha gonna do now?

Nothing is more secure than a dragons' lair.

[Sith_Happens]

Either Draconomicon or Dragon Magic has Lair Wards, which (IIRC) are somewhere between traps and Wondrous Architecture.

[Tvtyrant]

I like pets/descendants. Half-dragon animals/oozes/vermin and Drakes make good guards, especially as the children of a dragon may feel a high level of affection for their parent.

You could even go so far as to have large numbers of troops stationed there; the dragon goes out on campaign to aid tribes/chiefdoms against their enemies /monsters in return for troops to guard their treasures.

[karkus]

Dragons have around +50 to Spot and Listen checks. Even when asleep, that's pretty cool. If you really want to, y'know, you can checks out Draconomicon; it has a massive section (maybe even an entire chapter; I don't remember exactly) on defenses for lairs; magical traps optimized for large spaces, if you would.

[Clericzilla]

I like the idea of the Dragon using puppet strings to control the kingdom (peace and prosperity sort of thing) and then kidnaps the princess of said nation.

The Dragon then takes the princess to another Dragon's lair (leaves her outside the entrance as a "kobold" offering) and then uses its connection to rally a group of adventurers to go save said princess.

The dragon in human form meets with the adventurers and learns their names and as much about them as it can. When the adventurers go into the other dragon's lair the original dragon scrys on them to learn the other dragon's defenses. This way our original dragon can learn more about protecting their lair and how adventurers deal with problems.

And hey if they kill said other dragon then the original dragon has 2 lairs in which to keep the shiny shiny money. Potentially a decoy lair too! Hmmm this may go into a game...

[Eldest]

Well, in the above's case, there're three options: the other dragon's more powerful, in which case he finds out it was the first dragon that set this up and proceeds according to his/her personality; the other dragon is as powerful as the first, in which case, a feud of draconic proportions has started; the other dragon is weaker than the first one, in which case why is it near the first dragon in the first place?

[Clericzilla]

Well, in the above's case, there're three options: the other dragon's more powerful, in which case he finds out it was the first dragon that set this up and proceeds according to his/her personality; the other dragon is as powerful as the first, in which case, a feud of draconic proportions has started; the other dragon is weaker than the first one, in which case why is it near the first dragon in the first place?

I was thinking way off in the distance.


Also just because one dragon is more powerful than the other doesn't mean that the less powerful one isn't more crafty with traps and wards and such.

Plus think of the science! Little lab mice adventurers going off to another dragon's lair to show the dragon how the adventurers little minds work (because apparently even with their feeble mind and bodies they do end up killing dragons every so often).

[kreenlover]

Plus think of the science! Little lab mice adventurers going off to another dragon's lair to show the dragon how the adventurers little minds work (because apparently even with their feeble mind and bodies they do end up killing dragons every so often).

and as they say "FOR SCIENCE!" That can about justify anything. And that also makes sense, because then the dragon would be better able to protect their own lair.

I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often

[Shining Wrath]

Ahem.
1) Dragons can cast spells. Spells can be very useful for hiding, for booby-trapping, and so on.
2) Dragons are scary. Very, very scary. This can easily mean terrifying the local village / tribe into supplying cannon fodder guards.
3) Dragons can fly. Yawing chasms that you have to fly across are a deterrent.
4) Many dragons can endure inhospitable terrain. Extreme heat, cold, acid, underwater, you name it. As an extreme, imagine a red dragon's lair that you have to swim through magma to reach.
5) Dragons are intelligent, ranging from "average" to "smarter than your wizard will be at level 20". And they live a very long time. And they don't leave very often. Can you imagine the traps a genius spellcaster can devise given a few decades of work? And before you say "No hands", a lot of your better dragons can polymorph. And those that can't can always threaten to eat the local artisan's family unless he works for free.
6) Dragons live a long time. They care about their hoards. If you rob them, they will be avenged. It will be served cold.
7) As spellcasters, the higher level ones know you are coming ... and pretend to leave. After all, what could possibly occupy more of a dragon's time than scrying for thieves? And then they trap you between their treasure and the exit. And add your possessions to their hoard, and use your remains to strengthen their traps, or perhaps reanimate you as zombies.

[Vknight]

Dragons can spend years building a dungeon for there stuff

Lets start with the fact earth will be easy to move and when your pulling up stone and giving it to whoever follows you to build there fortress/homes they are even harder to attack for where to go to find you

Then the fact a Cave Entrance only needs be so large. If your able to change into medium sized creature it only needs to fit a small sized creature for the entrance by squeezing

Pits and anything else that wastes time or uses resources for fliers
Heavy things that take time to get out of the way
Locks on everything. And I mean everything
Various water/magma/acid/poison filled pits to take up more time. Maybe even hide undead in the water/poison
Heck with time build a underground lake and put ships on it. Crewed by the undead of the tribe that follows the Dragon
Mazes upon mazes to keep the intruders bogged down and busy
As for other things why not rooms that during the summer flood and winter freeze over to make them two different types of nasty and put them at the end of various dead ends to mess with the group