Eldritch Glaive+Quicken Spell

[gooddragon1]

xxxxxxxxxxxx

[Crake]

From how I understand eldritch glaive, manifesting the glaive itself is a non-action, as part of your options with the glaive you can spend a full round action to full attack with it, which cannot be quickened, as it's not part of actually casting it, it's something you can do AFTER you've got it in hand. Whether or not you choose to do so, you still threaten for a round as if you have a reach weapon.

That's how I've always interpreted it.

[Karnith]

From how I understand eldritch glaive, manifesting the glaive itself is a non-action, as part of your options with the glaive you can spend a full round action to full attack with it, which cannot be quickened, as it's not part of actually casting it, it's something you can do AFTER you've got it in hand. Whether or not you choose to do so, you still threaten for a round as if you have a reach weapon.

That's how I've always interpreted it.
I'm fairly certain that you make the attacks as part of the invocation, which takes a full round action. It's not a normal attack in this respect (an intuitive way to verify: it always take a full-round action regardless of how many attacks you end up getting, and you don't get extra attacks from things like haste), so you can quicken it.

[Thiyr]

Far as I ever saw, the invocation was as described by Karnith. You get your full attack from invoking it, not from taking the full attack action. If you can quicken it, you get more (but if you would get another full attack from some other way, say a quickened teleport and shadow pounce, you would not get said attacks)

[Crake]

Sorry, that was my mis-wording, I meant you could spend a full round action to perform a full-attack-like action, not actually get a proper full attack. But my main point was, as far as the text seems to imply, this is simply an option, and not something you are required to do as part of the invocation, thus cannot be quickened, similar to how something like the standard action of throwing fire with produce flame cannot be quickened.

[gooddragon1]

Sorry, that was my mis-wording, I meant you could spend a full round action to perform a full-attack-like action, not actually get a proper full attack. But my main point was, as far as the text seems to imply, this is simply an option, and not something you are required to do as part of the invocation, thus cannot be quickened, similar to how something like the standard action of throwing fire with produce flame cannot be quickened.

So it can or can't?

I think some of you are saying something like: It isn't truly a full-attack action and using the mentality of how an extra standard action that a choker gets allows an extra attack above BAB if used as a standard action (and a free action condensing the full-round action into an equivalent sort of deal).

This seems to imply that spells that require attacks can't exceed your BAB in number of attacks.

[Karnith]

I think some of you are saying something like: It isn't truly a full-attack action and using the mentality of how an extra standard action that a choker gets allows an extra attack above BAB if used as a standard action (and a free action condensing the full-round action into an equivalent sort of deal).
I'm having trouble following your example, but here is how I believe it works: Eldritch Glaive is an invocation (spell-like ability) that takes 1 full-round action to use. The invocation lets you make 1 attack (with more possible if you have a base attack bonus above +6) as part of its effect. This is not a full attack, but part of the resolution of the invocation (i.e. no additional actions are required; the attack is part of the invocation's effect). Therefore, using a Quickened Eldritch Glaive (by taking Quicken Spell-like Ability for it) allows you to make two Eldritch Glaive attack routines in one round - one as a free action, and one as a full-round action.

Crake's dispute is (so far as I can tell) that the effect of Eldritch Glaive is actually to give you the ability to use a full-round action to make an attack (or attacks) with the Eldritch Glaive until the end of the turn, so that quickening it won't do anything (because the attack would be a separate action).

I do not believe that this is correct, because Eldritch Glaive is a blast shape invocation. Blast shape invocations only modify Eldritch Blasts and must be used with that ability (normally a standard action). Any action that it refers to in the invocation description must therefore refer to using the Eldritch Blast itself, and hence the full-round action must refer to the modified casting time of the Eldritch Blast.

[Soranar]

Ok, I get this is really counter intuitive but , here goes:

First, eldritch glaive is a full round action

it's not a full attack with a weapon

meaning you don't get extra attacks from haste since it's a full round action

It's a spell like ability you cast that takes a full round action to use (like say, a summon spell or a metamagicked spell if you're a spontaneous caster)

however, if your BAB happens to be high enough to extra attacks you get extra attacks with your eldritch glaive (which is what confuses most people)

Just think of it this way: if you meet certain requirements, your spell is more efficient, it doesn't change the nature of the spell just it's result

It's still not a weapon you wield, nor is it anything but a full round action

now

quick spell like ability quickens your full round action into a swift action

so yes, you can get 6 attacks during that round since you get your swift action, then you get your full round action

[gooddragon1]

Ok, I get this is really counter intuitive but , here goes:

First, eldritch glaive is a full round action

it's not a full attack with a weapon

meaning you don't get extra attacks from haste since it's a full round action

It's a spell like ability you cast that takes a full round action to use (like say, a summon spell or a metamagicked spell if you're a spontaneous caster)

however, if your BAB happens to be high enough to extra attacks you get extra attacks with your eldritch glaive (which is what confuses most people)

Just think of it this way: if you meet certain requirements, your spell is more efficient, it doesn't change the nature of the spell just it's result

It's still not a weapon you wield, nor is it anything but a full round action

now

quick spell like ability quickens your full round action into a swift action

so yes, you can get 6 attacks during that round since you get your swift action, then you get your full round action

This explanation makes me see it now. Thanks guys.

[Khedrac]

Sanity Check time:

You cannot use Quicken Spell on a full-round casting time spell.
So what makes you think you can use Quicken Spell-like Ability on a full round SLA?
Although the feat description does not say that it does not apply to SLAs with a full-round action, the "Normal" section specifically states that using an SLA is a standard action. Given that Eldritch Glaive is not a standard action to use, it does not qualify under the "Normal" section of the feat and thereore the feat does not apply.

Is the logic above dubious? - Yes it is. But not as dubious as trying to quicken Eldritch Glaive for a full attack as a swift action. The point here is the trick you are trying to pull is really only for Theoretical Optimisation or a very lenient DM. And on the TO front it is extremely dubious for the reason I have given.

[gooddragon1]

Sanity Check time:

You cannot use Quicken Spell on a full-round casting time spell.
So what makes you think you can use Quicken Spell-like Ability on a full round SLA?
Although the feat description does not say that it does not apply to SLAs with a full-round action, the "Normal" section specifically states that using an SLA is a standard action. Given that Eldritch Glaive is not a standard action to use, it does not qualify under the "Normal" section of the feat and thereore the feat does not apply.

Is the logic above dubious? - Yes it is. But not as dubious as trying to quicken Eldritch Glaive for a full attack as a swift action. The point here is the trick you are trying to pull is really only for Theoretical Optimisation or a very lenient DM. And on the TO front it is extremely dubious for the reason I have given.

"In addition, a spell-like ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time greater than 1 full round cannot be quickened."

[Karnith]

Is the logic above dubious? - Yes it is. But not as dubious as trying to quicken Eldritch Glaive for a full attack as a swift action. The point here is the trick you are trying to pull is really only for Theoretical Optimisation or a very lenient DM. And on the TO front it is extremely dubious for the reason I have given.
It's not theoretical optimization. For one, as gooddragon1 pointed out, it's the clear RAW. For two, I have allowed warlocks in my games to do this (and know of others who have done so), because it's really not that strong compared to other options (remember, Quicken Spell-like Ability comes online for Eldritch Glaive at level 12). For three, this would be incredibly weak for a TO exercise. A level 12 warlock with a greater chasuble of fell power will be doing around 100 damage (each eldritch blast will deal 8d6 damage, so 4*8*3.5=112) with two attack routines, assuming they all hit. Being able to deal a fair amount of damage in one round three times per day isn't exactly game-breaking.

I mean, it would probably a bit much for low-op games, but it's pretty mediocre at higher optimization levels.