Tsukiko's Knowledge

[HZ514]

So Redcloak killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) Tsukiko, but not before indulging in a bit of explaining-the-plan villainy. Doesn't that mean she took that knowledge into the afterlife with her?

That afterlife might be pretty exciting for her, but she really liked Xykon. What stops her from finding some way to manifest to him and expose Redcloak's deception? Even if not that, she could raise enough of a stink to get something's attention. The particularly explosive information she possesses has deicidal implications, so surely such a rumor would reach a god's ears sooner or later.

I guess narratively her story is already neatly tied up, and she was never really going to be a big player for long / when it mattered. But it just seems like the whole tell-her-the-plan-before-killing-her tactic on Redcloak's part would be a huge mistake since in OotSverse dead (wo)men do tell tales. After all, that information is just one Plane Shift away (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html).

[Xelbiuj]

What stops her from finding . . .

A better question is what enables her to?

[Morty]

What stops her from finding . . .

A better question is what enables her to?

Pretty much. Tsukiko has no way of going back to the mortal plane herself and Xykon has no reason to seek her out. Provided he could find her in whatever afterlife she ended up in, anyway.

[Water_Bear]

The thing is, typically getting that kind of info without an intact set of her vocal chords on hand requires either casting powerful divinations to contact her directly or going to find and interrogate her soul. Xykon doesn't care enough to do any of those things, and all the other casters on Team Evil work for Redcloak.

Escaping the Lower Planes is also pretty iffy. If three Epic Spellcasters, the three most powerful ever to wind up in the IFCC's various hells, couldn't do it without a failed Soul Splice, Tsukiko doesn't have very good odds. Especially since the IFCC implied they were just going to go and round them right back up.

The only way I could see this working is if she became a Ghost, which would be kind of ironic. She does have the right qualifications (unfulfilled business, violent death, powerful necromancer) and Ghost!Tsukiko would be even cuter than the regular version.

But as you said before, her part of the story seems to be over and I doubt the Giant would bring her back just as fan-service or to undo a major plot point.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Destroying her body went a long way toward making talking to her very difficult.

[zimmerwald1915]

What stops her from finding . . .

A better question is what enables her to?
Well, there's the ghost template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm). She probably doesn't have anything like the Greenhilt Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) tying her to the mortal realm, but she might not have to follow the same rules he does.

[Lkctgo]

Doesn't this just mean that the IFCC now knows the gate is worthless to them? Except as a threat against the Dark One/other gods? The only thing the ritual is useful for it to move the gate around under the command of the Dark One after all.

[Zmeoaice]

Pretty much. Tsukiko has no way of going back to the mortal plane herself and Xykon has no reason to seek her out. Provided he could find her in whatever afterlife she ended up in, anyway.

Xykon knows she has knowledge of Arcane and Divine magic. He gave her part of the ritual without Redcloak's knowledge (and denies this happened). Xykon probably is suspicious of Redcloak after the incident, and I think he's only pretending to let him off.


Doesn't this just mean that the IFCC now knows the gate is worthless to them? Except as a threat against the Dark One/other gods? The only thing the ritual is useful for it to move the gate around under the command of the Dark One after all.

We know Taimat and Rat are allied with the Dark One, so maybe the IFCC is also allied as well. Or they might know something about the gates that even TDO doesn't.

[zimmerwald1915]

We know Taimat and Rat are allied with the Dark One, so maybe the IFCC is also allied as well. Or they might know something about the gates that even TDO doesn't.
The IFCC's relations with Tiamat don't seem exactly cordial.

[factotum]

Doesn't this just mean that the IFCC now knows the gate is worthless to them?

Assuming they know Tsukiko is dead, or have even been monitoring her in any way--they're not omnipresent, after all. Besides, why would being able to move the gates at will not be useful to them? They could do exactly the same things with it that the Dark One was planning to do, only in their case they'd just do it to destroy the Good gods.

[snikrept]

When did we learn Rat allied with the Dark One? Is that in a prequel book?

[CoffeeIncluded]

When did we learn Rat allied with the Dark One? Is that in a prequel book?

Yes, though I've wondered how that alliance is doing after Azure City got taken over.

[Agnostik]

She probably doesn't have anything like the Greenhilt Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) tying her to the mortal realm.
She has a... Xykon plushie! :smallamused:

[Illsbane]

Since it's likely that Tsukiko's soul went to Rat -- as he or she is the only known Evil member of the Twelve Gods and Tsukiko had to draw her divine magic from some patron --
and Rat is the one responsible for the Dark One finding out about the Snarl in the first place
-- I wouldn't be surprised if her divine patron stuffed her down the deepest, darkest hole he or she could find in the appropriate afterlife and is sitting on her, just so she can't let people know stuff that will implicate Rat in the current crisis.
Rat's probably taking some criticism from the other eleven gods of the South for continuing to sponsor Tsukiko when she joined up with the Dark One's high priest and Xykon to curb-stomp Azure City and enable Hobgoblin rule over part of their territory. He or she wouldn't want Tsukiko making more trouble by letting her flap her gums at people, even if they would be incorporeal gums.

[Psyren]

Well, there's the ghost template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm). She probably doesn't have anything like the Greenhilt Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) tying her to the mortal realm, but she might not have to follow the same rules he does.

Complete Divine - ghosts often take months if not years to coalesce the necessary ectoplasm around themselves after death. The Greenhilt Sword and Eugene's connection were more of a fast track to the process, and even those required Eugene to be locked in limbo due to his Oath keeping him out of heaven.

Tsukiko has no such oath (if it would even matter to fiends) - so chances are she's been processed by Hellish Resources already and ushered through a gate of her own (for torture etc.)


Doesn't this just mean that the IFCC now knows the gate is worthless to them? Except as a threat against the Dark One/other gods? The only thing the ritual is useful for it to move the gate around under the command of the Dark One after all.

We actually don't know what their plans are for the Gates. They may even have a ritual of their own completely unrelated to Redcloak's. We only know what they think they can do if they get their hands on one - slaughter every good dragon for instance, or lay siege to the Upper planes.

[Olinser]

Doesn't this just mean that the IFCC now knows the gate is worthless to them? Except as a threat against the Dark One/other gods? The only thing the ritual is useful for it to move the gate around under the command of the Dark One after all.

Common misconception I think is cropping up more and more.

There is not one exclusive ritual that gives control of the Gate to the Dark One.

REDCLOAK'S ritual gives control to the Dark One - and at least to me, the implication was that the arcane portion of the ritual took control, and the divine portion then transferred that control to somebody else.

If Redcloak can grant control to the Dark One, Durkon could slightly modify the ritual to grant control to Thor, and Malack could modify it to grant control to Nergal.

Arguably, you could transfer control to ANY entity, in which case the most likely course of action is that the IFCC uses their Soul Minutes with V to A) splice a Cleric onto him (or simply teleport a willing Evil cleric in), and B) use said Cleric to cast the ritual to give control to one of THEM. Most likely the Lawful one - he's the one least likely to turn on the other ones once he has control of the Gate.

[Sr.medusa]

Well, when her corpse was destroyed, she may return has a wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels)

[Kish]

Wight.

She would rise as a wight--if there was anything left of her body, which there isn't.

[Kornaki]

Redcloak undoubtedly knows more about how to keep Tsukiko quiet than Xykon does about how to get her to talk, so I'm betting on this one staying under wraps.

[Rig]

Who's allied with the dark one? Why? It says something about the risk analysis involved i suppose.

[Cavenskull]

...Arguably, you could transfer control to ANY entity, in which case the most likely course of action is that the IFCC uses their Soul Minutes with V to A) splice a Cleric onto him (or simply teleport a willing Evil cleric in), and B) use said Cleric to cast the ritual to give control to one of THEM. Most likely the Lawful one - he's the one least likely to turn on the other ones once he has control of the Gate.
It's already been established that the IFCC doesn't have nearly enough time available between them to control Vaarsuvius for the weeks required to cast the ritual.

[Psyren]

It's already been established that the IFCC doesn't have nearly enough time available between them to control Vaarsuvius for the weeks required to cast the ritual.

Redcloak's ritual takes weeks. Whatever the IFCC is planning, however, they apparently have "more than enough time for their purposes."

[exenia]

Whether V is needed for the arcane or divine portion (or spliced up to do both at once?), the week-long prep time is not a terrible obstacle.

All the IFCC has to do is throw another bargain at V. "Time to cash in. Now, go torture and murder your ex and your children. Orrrr... cast this ritual for us so Xykon can't."

[Cavenskull]

Redcloak's ritual takes weeks. Whatever the IFCC is planning, however, they apparently have "more than enough time for their purposes."
If a ritual passed down by a god to two of the most powerful villains in the world takes weeks to achieve its effect, it seems pretty unlikely that the IFCC will have an equivalent that works in mere minutes. Whatever "their purposes" are, I'm pretty sure they don't rely on using Vaarsuvius an express-delivery version of the ritual.

[Olinser]

If a ritual passed down by a god to two of the most powerful villains in the world takes weeks to achieve its effect, it seems pretty unlikely that the IFCC will have an equivalent that works in mere minutes. Whatever "their purposes" are, I'm pretty sure they don't rely on using Vaarsuvius an express-delivery version of the ritual.

Unless all they need to do is re-splice those 3 souls back on V, teleport in, and snatch control of the ritual from Xykon 2 minutes before he finishes it.

With Haerta added in the mix, a surprise round with a Time Stop, and actually being able to use Epic spells (and Dysjunction), Darth V would crush Xykon.

Then all they have to do is Summon or Plane Shift a few of their minions (or themselves) over, get an Evil Cleric to finish off the divine half of the ritual, and all hail the IFCC!

[Psyren]

If a ritual passed down by a god to two of the most powerful villains in the world takes weeks to achieve its effect, it seems pretty unlikely that the IFCC will have an equivalent that works in mere minutes. Whatever "their purposes" are, I'm pretty sure they don't rely on using Vaarsuvius an express-delivery version of the ritual.

That depends on what they're trying to do with the Gates, doesn't it? Enabling a Gate to be teleported to the Upper Planes while simultaneously transferring control of that teleportation to an evil deity apparently takes weeks, but that's not necessarily what the IFCC wants to do with it.

Or it could be as Olinser said - hijacking the last few minutes of the existing ritual. After all - in D&D, you don't have to choose any of the parameters of a spell until after you finish casting it.

[Cavenskull]

Unless all they need to do is re-splice those 3 souls back on V, teleport in, and snatch control of the ritual from Xykon 2 minutes before he finishes it.

With Haerta added in the mix, a surprise round with a Time Stop, and actually being able to use Epic spells (and Dysjunction), Darth V would crush Xykon.

Then all they have to do is Summon or Plane Shift a few of their minions (or themselves) over, get an Evil Cleric to finish off the divine half of the ritual, and all hail the IFCC!
Where are they going to find an evil cleric that knows Redcloak's half of the ritual?



That depends on what they're trying to do with the Gates, doesn't it? Enabling a Gate to be teleported to the Upper Planes while simultaneously transferring control of that teleportation to an evil deity apparently takes weeks, but that's not necessarily what the IFCC wants to do with it.
Maybe not, but if they need to have a ritual cast on their behalf, I have trouble believing that anything that gives them sufficient control of a gate to make fulfilling the promise to Tiamat a "trivial" task, will happen to have a short casting time.

Or it could be as Olinser said - hijacking the last few minutes of the existing ritual. After all - in D&D, you don't have to choose any of the parameters of a spell until after you finish casting it.
I'd expect that you'd at least have to know how to cast the spell first.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Well, there's the ghost template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm). She probably doesn't have anything like the Greenhilt Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) tying her to the mortal realm, but she might not have to follow the same rules he does.

She could always haunt Xykon. Goodness knows she was doing that in life...

[Snails]

It would break genre conventions for the afterlife to be a very useful resource for espionage on friends and enemies.

In a novel, Redcloak could just think his evil thoughts at us. In a graphic novel, exposition needs to be used sparingly or it quickly devolves into torture for the readers.

Redcloak has taken reasonable precautions, ones that it would take a near-Epic cleric (17th level) to bypass. As Lirian does not seem to be available, Redcloak is only such person known to exist. If any other such clerics existed and might cooperate with Xykon, he would have just thought-balooned at us.

[Bulldog Psion]

That little passage seemed to be for the readers, so that those who don't have Start of Darkness can find out what Redcloak is really planning. It wasn't stated anywhere in the comic up until that moment, unless I'm really mistaken. So, that whole incident really wouldn't have happened if there hadn't been an urgent need to show why Redcloak kept Xykon's phylactery and gave him a fake one.

In actually, the conversation in that strip would have jumped right from:

"Now tell me what the ritual does so I can tell him!"

to

"Seize her."

With nothing else in between. In fact, he might have had her killed in the previous comic as soon as she said "I don't think it does what everyone thinks it does". Better to kill her sooner, after all, just in case someone might overhear the beans she was about to spill.

Mind you, I love the interplay of personalities in that scene, and how Redcloak stands there as cold as a monument while she's drained to death. It really established him as a strong, formidable character. But I think she'd actually be finished off much sooner.

[snikrept]

If the mantle of the Dark One continues to telepathically transmit the details of how to do the cleric side of the ritual to any old non-deifically-blessed chump who happens to murder Redcloak and put it on, that's an even larger security hole than... than... carrying around as your holy symbol the phylactery of the lich whose continued existence is mission-critical!

[Copperdragon]

If the mantle of the Dark One continues to telepathically transmit the details of how to do the cleric side of the ritual to any old non-deifically-blessed chump who happens to murder Redcloak ...!

It only works that way for clerics of the Dark One:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html

[Amphiox]

Assuming they know Tsukiko is dead, or have even been monitoring her in any way--they're not omnipresent, after all. Besides, why would being able to move the gates at will not be useful to them? They could do exactly the same things with it that the Dark One was planning to do, only in their case they'd just do it to destroy the Good gods.

One of them should have access to Tsukiko's soul in the afterlife, and could extract the information from her, if they knew to "ask" for it.

[Snails]

It is perfectly possible that the gods are all quite aware of the potential of a Gate as a weapon, and refrain from getting into this game for sound reasons. If true, the only thing Tsukiko knows that would be valuable is that Xykon ought to snuff Redcloak sooner rather than later. Well, that is Xykon's problem.

[Olinser]

It is perfectly possible that the gods are all quite aware of the potential of a Gate as a weapon, and refrain from getting into this game for sound reasons. If true, the only thing Tsukiko knows that would be valuable is that Xykon ought to snuff Redcloak sooner rather than later. Well, that is Xykon's problem.

True. They may have a 'Big Red Button' on the world, if you will. It was already stated that they could easily remake the prison on the Snarl, but they'd need the threads that formed the world to do it. So it is quite reasonable to believe that they are willing, ready, and able to do that if it became necessary.