The Quest for Plasma: Finding the Perfect Flatscreen

[Palanan]

...and thus it came to pass, that the burden of seeking plasma was laid upon my unwilling shoulders. For though I did not ask this task, yet I accepted it, for the cause of peace and the ending of strife throughout the land.

--Urf. I am in the market for a flatscreen TV. This was not my choice, but here I am. It's been a long, long trudge through the fluorescent wasteland of department stores and appliance outlets; Daenerys and the Red Waste got nothin' on me.

Why so prolonged and cheerless a trek? Because after looking at hundreds of screens in countless stores over the course of many moons, I have yet to find one that displays an image with the clarity and smoothness I want. Most of them are ghastly, granular things, with halos, jaggies and digital artifacts galore. Many of them have real trouble displaying rapid motion, and they completely fall apart when the original video is even slightly grainy to begin with.

One appliance store, and only one, had a salesman willing to let me bring in some DVDs of my own to try out. This allowed me to quickly and firmly eliminate LED screens, so I'm looking at plasma alone--even though most plasma screens have irritating issues as well.

I know it's possible to have a lovely image on a plasma screen, because I've seen a spectacular one in a friend's home. But I'm not willing to buy something on a salesman's vague promise that "it'll look better when you get it home," especially when said promises are completely unsubstantiated by any sort of coherent technical explanation. Most salesmen can barely work the remote.

So...help. I am lost in the wilderness, beset by artifacts and image ghosts on every side. Can anyone help guide me to the glittering sea beyond?

[Mando Knight]

It sounds like you've been looking at untuned TVs... ones where the image settings haven't been set quite right. It's an issue that, I gather, is common to HD TV screens.

[arguskos]

--Urf. I am in the market for a flatscreen TV. This was not my choice, but here I am.
Then why are you doing it? :smallconfused:


I know it's possible to have a lovely image on a plasma screen, because I've seen a spectacular one in a friend's home.
Ask your buddy what his is, then go order it online? Seems like the easy solution.

[tyckspoon]

Speaking from prior experience working in an electronics retailer: Many display devices are set up in absolutely horrible viewing conditions. They're often daisy-chained off a single display source (so you have ten-fifteen TVs showing the same video, which is usually pretty badly degraded by this treatment), sometimes not actually using an HD video source (SD video will *not* look good on a large HD-capable screen unless you are viewing it from far enough away that you can't tell the difference any more. This is basically just something you have to deal with) and with little to no attention given to optimizing the settings on the device for the local lighting conditions or even just toning them down from 100% SuperGlare Brightness. Those salesmen are probably right- almost every TV you'll see in a show room will look better when you take it home and set it up in a non-stupid fashion. You probably do want to at least find something that can handle motion reasonably well; that's going to be an inherent problem of the set.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by tyckspoon
Many display devices are set up in absolutely horrible viewing conditions. They're often daisy-chained off a single display source....

That seems to be the case with most of the stores I've been to. I'm not really a tech guy, so the theory behind this leaves me a little stumped. Are there just not enough electrons to go around or something? :smallconfused:

I'm willing to accept this is an issue that won't come up at home, but not sure how I can make comparisons in the store when it's evidently a huge factor. I've talked about this with several sales guys, and asked if they could isolate one; but either they're not sure how to do this, or the asking marks me as A Very Bad Person Who Shouldn't Ask These Things.


Originally Posted by Mando Knight
It sounds like you've been looking at untuned TVs... ones where the image settings haven't been set quite right.

Definitely, and also the issues with local lighting that tyckspoon mentioned. I get the feeling that the guys doing the selling aren't the same people who set up the cat's-cradle of wiring in the first place.

Something else I've noticed, as I've made the rounds, is how completely different the experience can be, depending on the individual sales associate. I don't mean the image quality, but the entire process of viewing and comparing in the store. Most of them, unfortunately, either don't know the fine details of their gear or they're not very good at explaining it.

[Mando Knight]

By the way, some places have installation service. If you feel like shelling out for it, it should include a technician who does know their way around the equipment you just purchased, and can tune your TV if needed.

As a rule of thumb, since shopping by looking at display models brings an uneven experience at best, I'd recommend looking at review sites. CNET has some free reviews (http://reviews.cnet.com/televisions/), for example. Consumer Reports might be more reliable on the testing side, but they're paid for by subscription fees rather than ads, so you'll need to pay to see their results.

[Palanan]

Thanks to the link to CNET, I'll check that out.

As for Consumer Reports, that's where this quest began, with the models and brands they recommended. They compile a whole slew of factors in their ratings, though, some of which they weight differently than I do.

Something else I wonder about flatscreens in general, apart from immediate image issues, is just what kind of lifespan we can expect from them. Have they even been around long enough to get a sense of which ones will still be going strong ten years from now?

[tyckspoon]

Something else I wonder about flatscreens in general, apart from immediate image issues, is just what kind of lifespan we can expect from them. Have they even been around long enough to get a sense of which ones will still be going strong ten years from now?

Pretty good, these days- you can expect a well-built set to die from outside factors (somebody pitches a Wiimote into it, it gets fried from electrical disturbances... [seriously put a decent surge protector on these things, doesn't have to be the like $300 Monster Entertainment Center stuff but find something good]) or just simply become obsolete before it actually breaks in the course of normal operation.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by tyckspoon
...or just simply become obsolete....

And this, too.

:smallfrown:

[Mando Knight]

[seriously put a decent surge protector on these things, doesn't have to be the like $300 Monster Entertainment Center stuff but find something good]
Like, anything with a fuse and you're good. The idea is to have something else explode with a power surge rather than your fancy $1000 screen. You should only forgo surge protectors if low ranking officers regularly stand at the consoles of your starship during combat sequences.

[Don Julio Anejo]

I've sold TV's part time for about 1.5 years at Sears (in Canada, so our selection is a little different than what I'm assuming is the US, but same idea). Quit just recently, in fact.

General tips about TV buying. Spoilered for tl; dr.
1. As mentioned before, viewing conditions are horrible. I highly doubt in your house you'd have 20 CCFL lights in the immediate perimeter, or (what's worse), spotlights shining on the actual screens. That kills any contrast and the only TV's that look good are super-bright 100% glare LED backlit PVA screens (usually from Samsung). Simply because they're bright and tend to display black/white well and fade out midtones in general.

2. Don't get installation/tuning. Get calibration. At some places it may be the same thing, at others: they'll say that turning your TV on, setting it to "movie" mode and lowering the brightness counts as tuning up. To make it look good, you need to use an actual sensor that measures colors and brightness (usually against an sRGB standard). If, when you get a guy to come in for calibration and he doesn't use a sensor (X-rite or Spyder, usually) with a laptop displaying a bunch of cool-looking colorful histograms, kick him out and ask for a refund since he's not doing his job. For plasma, make sure to watch it (or at least turn it on and put on the news or something) for ~100 hours before you calibrate it.

3. Don't get anything Monster unless it's entirely free. The company is one giant scam. An HDMI cable for $3 from Amazon will work just as well as a $200 one from Monster. The $3 one will actually be better since it's not as stiff, so less chance to break it and easier to move it around.

4. CNET is good for editor reviews and tests but seems to have a hard-on for Panasonic (justified, their TVs are awesome, if lacking in features), and Toshiba (completely unjustified, there's a reason their stuff, especially TV's are cheaper: they're a lot worse). Consumer reports is only really good for reliability numbers (Panasonic/Toshiba best at around 2% failure rate within 3 years, most other makers are around 5% fail rate, that's for 2009 models and earlier), most people who buy the magazine usually know nothing about electronics. Amazon is actually one of the best places for user reviews, as is AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/f/).

5. Don't buy Sony, ever. They're banking on their reputation to sell stuff while cutting corners left and right and still selling stuff that wasn't cutting edge even in 2009. Even on top-end stuff. They don't make plasmas, though so you don't have to worry :smile:

6. Noise (grains) is generally a byproduct of filming, and comes from shooting under insufficient lighting (you'll never see grain during bright scenes.. like a desert). It's exacerbated by turning up sharpness: sharpness makes edges of things more defined, which automatically makes tiny dots stand out more and more. Samsung/LG have at least some form of (uncontrollable) noise reduction built in (at least in demo/dynamic modes), Panasonic doesn't. Turning down sharpness is fine for blu-ray or video games, but makes your standard definition TV look much worse. You can save different presets in your TV, however: one for movies/HDTV, one for SD TV.

7. Jagged edges are also a byproduct of having sharpness set too high. Halos are common to LEDs/LCDs and are caused at strongly contrasting edges (i.e. black on white, like the Bond intro or Neo talking to the Architect) by the backlight attempting to compensate brightness to increase conrast and make it look more natural (basically, creating "fake contrast"). Shouldn't happen as much on a plasma (they don't have a conventional backlight, each pixel is its own light source), but it will occasionally. Digital artifacts are caused by a poor signal (either from a composite splitter that most stores use to split the signal, or from an actual bad/lossy signal).


Your specific case. Also spoilered for length.

You haven't stated your screen size preference, or your budget. These two are actually the biggest factors when it comes to TV selection. Budget can be the difference between buying an OK TV well within your budget, or getting something downright amazing for only $100 more. At the same time, spending double does not necessarily translate to anything more than a tiny improvement in quality, a few more bells and whistles and a shiner design. Size: just keep in mind that it's very difficult to find a decent plasma under 50" in size, and impossible if you want something smaller than a 42".

You haven't stated your planned use. From your focus on ghosting, artifacting and blur, I'm guessing either sports or video games? LED's yes, you can safely ignore (and you have my permission to punch the next person to suggest you a LED-LCD TV for games in the face. If he follows it up with "get a 240 Hz model, it's faster, you're welcome to your choice of brass knuckles or nunchucks).

Plasmas have one main problem: motion is jittery. Like, you can almost see frames transition from one to another... And that's precisely what's happening: it's because the 24/25/30 fps 99.7% of stuff is filmed in is insufficient for a perfectly smooth picture. Your eyes see more, but any other screen type generally has a certain "ghosting" that's enough to blur it out and make it seem smoother. To combat this, you need to turn on a type of post-processing that smoothes it out. (for the love of me, can't remember what it's called.. also, usually it's not available on cheaper models).

If you state your requirements a little better, beyond "looks really good," I might be able to help you better. As for right now, the absolute best TV you can get (in the sweet spot of price vs. features vs. performance) is the Panasonic ST50 (~$950-$1100 CDN for a 50".. not sure about US pricing) while it's still available (it's a 2012 model). In addition to all the regular stuff, it's also a smart 3D TV with built-in wifi and a nifty anti-reflection filter that actually makes it look fine in brightly lit environments like a store showroom. New models are coming out more or less right now, but I don't know much about them.

If it's too expensive, there's its cheaper cousin, UT50, but it doesn't have the nifty anti-reflection filter so it's not good for bright rooms. In any case, if sunlight is going to fall on your TV while you're watching it, a plasma won't work as you won't see much, but the ST50 can deal with lights much better and the room isn't reflected in its glass surface.

tl; dr: most problems you described are a result of the TV not configured properly or are endemic to LED's from limitations of LCD screens in general. A model I'd highly recommend is the Panasonic ST50. Plasmas will look much better than LEDs under almost all conditions but have significant other drawbacks: use more power, make a lot of heat, are heavy, you can see reflections on most of them and aren't as bright so won't work with sunlight.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Don Julio Anejo
*wall o' advice*

Whew. Thank you, Sr. Anejo.

I'll respond in detail when I can, but for now I'll just say that alas, I'm looking in the 42-50" range, and my budget is not great.

:smallfrown:

[Don Julio Anejo]

Whew. Thank you, Sr. Anejo.

I'll respond in detail when I can, but for now I'll just say that alas, I'm looking in the 42-50" range, and my budget is not great.

:smallfrown:
UT50 if you can still find it (2013 models are coming out now), and it is one of the few models still available in the 42" range. If you're OK with reflections and a somewhat dimmer screen than higher end models (dimness is only an issue if you're going to be shining spotlights or sun at it.. reflections.. not so much, take a look at where you're going to set it up). If you're paying more than $800-850 for either size (42 or 50) as per current prices, you're probably overpaying.

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks again for the very extensive commentary on flatscreen shopping. Just a few brief comments in response:

Lighting: you're right that there won't be CFLs or spotlights shining while the TV is on, nor sunlight flooding in. Viewing is usually done with one or two shaded lights in the back of the room.

Calibration Sensor: is this the same sort of Spyder that's used for calibrating computer screens? Might could borrow one, although no idea how to use it.

Planned Use: no gaming; almost entirely DVDs and cable TV. (I'm guessing that VHS, if ever converted or hooked up, will look absolutely awful no matter what.)

Preferences/Requirements: no artifacts, no halos, no jaggies, and especially no jittery motion. I really don't ask much.

:smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Don Julio Anejo
Halos are common to LEDs/LCDs and are caused at strongly contrasting edges....

I did notice these on LCDs, although I've also seen them on plasma screens--as you say, at contrasting edges, such as the fuselage of an airplane against the sky.


Originally Posted by Don Julio Anejo
If it's too expensive, there's its cheaper cousin, UT50, but it doesn't have the nifty anti-reflection filter so it's not good for bright rooms.

Since the room is usually dark for viewing, this sounds like a good place to start.

Also, in your experience, how difficult would it be to separate a display model from the composite splitter in the store, and have it connected directly to a dedicated DVD player?

This seems like the only way to solve the issue of signal degradation, when I'm comparing screens in the store, but I don't know if hooking up a display model separately would take two minutes or two hours.

[tyckspoon]

Calibration Sensor: is this the same sort of Spyder that's used for calibrating computer screens? Might could borrow one, although no idea how to use it.

Yup. Same process, really- if you know how to identify a good computer monitor, you can apply the same knowledge to TV shopping (although it's usually a lot simpler to get a monitor set up on a direct feed, being smaller, easier to move, and often set up in conjunction with a single computer system already.)


Also, in your experience, how difficult would it be to separate a display model from the composite splitter in the store, and have it connected directly to a dedicated DVD player?


Depends a lot on the store and how flexible they can be- if you can bring in your own DVD player, ready to plug in and go, it'll take about 30 seconds. Find the nearest power port, plug it in, hook up your HDMI/composite cables to the TV you're interested in, and choose the appropriate video source port to be active on the TV. (Depending on the particular TV you might also be able to just put a video on a USB stick and play that, which would be even simpler.)

If they have to try and do it just with the resources at that store.. it'll take some time and might not even be possible. They may not have enough cord yardage to actually directly connect the TV to the video source they're using, they may have to go poke around other departments to see if there's a spare DVD/Blu-Ray player they can borrow.. they may not actually be *allowed* to change the demo setups by store policy/managerial edict.

[Palanan]

Turns out my uncle had a Spyder boxed-set thingy, officially named the Pantone ColorVision Spyder2PRO Studio. I've never used this or anything like it before. :smalleek:

Bringing in my own DVD player would be complicated, I think...but maybe a laptop with a DVD player? More portable, maybe less hassle, but I have no idea if the wiring would be the same. From what you've said, maybe I could get away with a USB cable? Or would that introduce other signal-loss issues?

[Don Julio Anejo]

A laptop would certainly be easier to set up given that it wouldn't require a power outlet (which may be concealed/hard to reach in a lot of store set ups). If you have an HDMI port, you're set: all TV's have an HDMI port (it's the standard TV port).. looks kind of like a trapezoid USB. If you have mini-display port (mini-DP), you're fine too: you can buy a mini-DP-> HDMI adapter (and return it when you're done). Other than that.. you'll lose quality as the signal will most likely be analog and limited to 30/60 Hz refresh rate.

USB straight up won't work, it's not a video port and there are very, very few ways to send video over USB, most are a pain in the butt and are usually used in high-end monitors (i.e. for photo/video editing and publishing).

It IS possible to play video over USB (by straight up jacking in a flash drive into a TV), but usually there's loss of quality since the port can't read it fast enough and limits it to something like 30 Hz (fps) at 1080p.

Do keep in mind that DVD's are typically 480p and are not full HD (1920x1080 or 1080p). You'd need to use a blu-ray to get full HD, as well as either an HDMI or component AV port (5 differently colored pins instead of 3). RCA (3-pin connector... yellow, white, red) is also limited to 480p.

PS: then your uncle has a legit calibrator (I think it's an older model, but I've only ever heard of a few and never got around to buying/renting one myself).

[razorback]

So, I have a Panasonic Plasma 3D and I've been very happy with it.
Like everyone said, get it calibrated and then, after about 3-4 months, get it calibrated again after its had a chance to break in.
Surge protector is a must along with a power conditioner, IMO. I noticed that the screen was 'cleaner' after adding the conditioner, as advertised, but this may be due more to the fact I live in house that is over 120 years old and the electrical layout sometimes leaves something to be desired.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I've only ever owned old, used televisions, so I can't really contribute advice, but I can say that the thread title sounds like a postmodern "Let's Play."