Warshaper Question

[Yogibear41]

Could a Werewolf in Animal form(normaly only a bite attack) grant itself two claw attacks, and 1 or more slam attacks from the warshaper ability? or would it be limited to just picking 2 claw attacks?

In addition since the animal form normally doesn't have claw attacks even thought the hybrid form does, the claw attacks it would gain would be normal for its size and not increase in size correct?

[Urpriest]

By default, the Warshaper class puts no limit on the number of natural weapons you can gain. You're going to have to negotiate with your DM a ruling that you both find sensible, as otherwise you could get as many tentacles as you have move actions to spend during downtime and that would just get silly.

New attacks are normal for their size, yeah. Though if you can use the ability twice to increase the size of an attack you used the ability to create, things get more complicated. Something else to ask your DM about.

[Yogibear41]

Well I don't intend to grow a ton of tentacles in fact I want to basically not change much at all in appearance, I'm just thinking I could theme the slam as me smashing into something like a tackle or something, but that would most likely limit it to 1 attack.

[CIDE]

It doesn't quite work as Urpriest mentions.


Morphic Weapons (Su): As a move action, a warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws or fangs, allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage according to the size of the new form (see Table 5—1 on page 296 of the Monster Manual). These morphic weapons need not be natural weapons that the creature already possesses. For example, a warshaper polymorphed into an ettin (Large giant) could grow a claw that deals 1d6 points of damage, or horns for a gore attack that deals 1d8 points of damage.
If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger. For example, a warshaper who used wild shape to become a dire wolf (Large animal) could grow its jaw and snout, enabling a bite attack that deals 2d6 points of damage (as a for Huge animal), not the normal 1d8.
A warshaper can change morphic weapons as often as it likes, even if it is using a shapechanging technique such as the polymorph spell or the wild shape class feature that doesn't allow subsequent changes after the initial transformation.

So basically you can get ONE natural weapon of a given type. One tentacle, one claw, one bite, one wing buffet, etc. If you try to grow another one of the same type it instead treats the existing natural weapon as a size category larger.

[Yogibear41]

well it does say "claws" in the description, but Like I said no desire to have 40 tentacles or anything just want to be able to bite, claw, claw, and then a slam or 2. Just to make sure my damage isn't completely horrible.

[Crake]

It doesn't quite work as Urpriest mentions.



So basically you can get ONE natural weapon of a given type. One tentacle, one claw, one bite, one wing buffet, etc. If you try to grow another one of the same type it instead treats the existing natural weapon as a size category larger.

I don't see it limiting the number of natural attacks in there anywhere.

[Mithril Leaf]

It doesn't quite work as Urpriest mentions.



So basically you can get ONE natural weapon of a given type. One tentacle, one claw, one bite, one wing buffet, etc. If you try to grow another one of the same type it instead treats the existing natural weapon as a size category larger.

I..........
I....
You're right...
I have to rethink my life.
You still get a full set of colossal weapons of every type under the sun though. Even stronger if you can bust out the dragon colossal++ size categories from the ELH.

[CIDE]

well it does say "claws" in the description, but Like I said no desire to have 40 tentacles or anything just want to be able to bite, claw, claw, and then a slam or 2. Just to make sure my damage isn't completely horrible.

I got that. Just throwing that out there for one claw. Granted, you could argue to your DM that claws are ALWAYS lumped together as 2 claws=one set (I've never seen any exceptions so far). Add in the slam attack. Arguably an unarmed strike (this one's iffy).

But no, you'll never be hurting for damage. With Warshaper and going with what you wanted above you'd end up with:

Bite: 4d6
Slam: 2d8
Claw: 2d8

That's the bare minimum without a second claw attack or unarmed strikes.


I don't see it limiting the number of natural attacks in there anywhere.

Easy:


If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger.

So if you make a claw attack you can't make another. If you attempt to make another it just increases the damage for the first.


I..........
I....
You're right...
I have to rethink my life.
You still get a full set of colossal weapons of every type under the sun though. Even stronger if you can bust out the dragon colossal++ size categories from the ELH.

Eh...if the Warshaper bit didn't specifically cite the table in MM1 I wouldn't see a reason against it...but...

[Yogibear41]

Bite: 4d6
Slam: 2d8
Claw: 2d8

I'm not sure where your getting these numbers from.

As a large werewolf in animal form I have a bite for 1d8 damage, increased to 2d6 from improved natural attack bite, and then either increased to 3d6 or 2d8 depending on how you read the rules.

I could create a claw for 1d6 damage as a large creature, and create a slam for 1d6 as a large creature, I could take feats to increase both to 1d8. So I'm not understanding where these large numbers are coming from.

Unless of course you are saying that you can spend multiple move actions to continue to enlarge the body part until it reaches colossal size, im fairly certain you cannot do that, and the size increase is limited to only attacks you naturally poses before creating any new ones as a warshaper in addition to only allowing an increase of 1 size category.

[The Viscount]

They're engaging in a bit of TO and exploiting the loopholes in vague class features descriptions, a playground favorite pastime. They are saying that you would increase the natural weapons you have or gain. While RAI it is certainly limited to what you said, the RAW is rather hazy.

[Greenish]

I got that. Just throwing that out there for one claw. Granted, you could argue to your DM that claws are ALWAYS lumped together as 2 claws=one set (I've never seen any exceptions so far).Thri-kreen and girallon, for example, have sets of four claws.

[ddude987]

A couple things. Firstly, where do you see it saying you cannot create more than one of the same natural weapon? Secondly, it says treat it as a size larger, not it is a size larger so you cannot bump them to colossal size.

[Coidzor]

I got that. Just throwing that out there for one claw. Granted, you could argue to your DM that claws are ALWAYS lumped together as 2 claws=one set (I've never seen any exceptions so far).

Not much of an example, but ravids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm)only possess a single claw. They are, however, *weird.*

[CIDE]

Bite: 4d6
Slam: 2d8
Claw: 2d8

I'm not sure where your getting these numbers from.



Table on Pg 296 of the MM1



Unless of course you are saying that you can spend multiple move actions to continue to enlarge the body part until it reaches colossal size, im fairly certain you cannot do that, and the size increase is limited to only attacks you naturally poses before creating any new ones as a warshaper in addition to only allowing an increase of 1 size category.


That's exactly what I did. As written the Morphic Weapons allows it.




They're engaging in a bit of TO and exploiting the loopholes in vague class features descriptions, a playground favorite pastime. They are saying that you would increase the natural weapons you have or gain. While RAI it is certainly limited to what you said, the RAW is rather hazy.

Pretty much this right here. I'd never do the above and would have limited it to RAI had I ever used the class.


A couple things. Firstly, where do you see it saying you cannot create more than one of the same natural weapon?

I already answered this above.


If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger.

Which means if you spend a move action to make a bite you can't do it again. If you do try to do it again it instead just increases the size of the first bite.


Not much of an example, but ravids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm)only possess a single claw. They are, however, *weird.*

D&D does like to have its exceptions...

[Ace Nex]

The only one tentacle thing was something that really bummed out the druid in a group I play with. After about 2 sessions of him being this tentacled/fanged/freakish spawn of nature the DM looked at the book. While unlimited tentacles would be nice, sadly there are rules out there to prevent PCs from becoming hecatoncheires.