Ignored and Under appreciated PRC's Thread part 2

[Venger]

the previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266558) has unfortunately succumbed to turn unthread, but the concept was sound, and it seemed interest was still relatively constant.

last one mentioned was hoardstealer, so let's take a crack at draconomicon:

Draconomicon

Dracolyte

Fluff
You really love dragons and revere them religiously.

Usefulness
Full divine casting's hardly ever bad, though two feats as a tax (with one of them being toughness) and speak language draconic (yuck) is a little steep.

The glory domain is kind of okay, and the domination domain is spectacular, offering more spells that aren't already on your divine list

alertness is whatever, your pokemon wyrmling can never get bigger or stronger so can't contribute to combat and will be at best a cute fluff thing, and at worst a liability. dragon-style immunities are nice, but come online too late, your keen senses are a joke, and your summoning of a draconic ally is... not very good (an adult dragon at lvl 15?)

Overall package

you'll still in all likelihood casting off a cleric/druid chassis, which is not going to lose you any power contests. offers more class features than clerics, but honestly, your feats can be better spent than qualifying for this class

what a DM should know

treat the wyrmling like a PC's cute kid cousin or elderly grandparents or something. let them leave it in a safe space and don't mess with it. punishing players for making a sacrifice for what amounts to a roleplaying cookie is generally not a great way to encourage fun times.

Dragonkith

Fluff
as with many of the others in the book, you just really love dragons, so you decide to serve one as an errand-boy

Usefulness
another two awful feat taxes, speak draconic, and 4 ranks in what's in all likelihood a crossclass skill for a melee brute who can meet the BA req makes this class very difficult for a PC to qualify for. if you've got full BA and arcana as a class skill, you probably cast spells, which this class does not advance.

Overall package
detect treasure's kind of cool, I guess. I don't know why mighty attack isn't an at-will since the damage is so low. scales aren't going to matter since by the time you can enter, it's going to be either all touch attacks from mage enemies or +Yes to-hits from brute enemies. the telepathic ink is cool from an RP perspective, but realistically, your dragon patron's not going to be involved that much. sorcerous knack sort of asks you to rope cha in to a build that in all likelihood dumped it, being melee oriented and offering no support for pally/crusader entries.

what a DM should know
this class presents sort of a binary problem. either you have your PC's dragon patron be uninvolved, making him ask why he bothered with this class as opposed to one of the other melee-friendly dragony classes such as vassal of bahamut or platinum knight, or you have the dragon involve itself in combat now and again, in all likelihood making your PC feel at best overshadowed and at worst superfluous. odds are your PC's goals of being a fighter who really loves dragons can best be fulfilled by a different prc

Dragonrider

Fluff
whether they're from pern or alagasia, everyone can at least understand the appeal of a guy riding on top of a dragon. xykon himself has (kinda) indulged in this guilty pleasure too. what's it give us in the game?

Usefulness
decent if you're a mounted cavalier-type character. your guess is as good as mine for how you're supposed to get your pet dragon. I think it's assuming you've got levels in purple dragon knight (or the vastly more awesome evil counterpart wearer of purple) or something. a relatively decent no-frills mounted combat class

Overall package
skill focus ride? seriously? what is it with every class having 2 feats to get in? anyway, if you can overlook this, it's not too bad if you're a paladin or bone knight or something

what a DM should know
same as any charger type character: give them some stuff to splatter, but don't make all your combats one big enemy vs the party, or he'll get gibbed. many of the charger's weaknesses are overcome by having a reliable means of flight, so you'll have to step up your game (though not by much)


will add the rest later on (including hoardstealer of course) just want to let people find the thread, contribute, and discuss a little first

[TitanForceGo]

If you make some sort of template and standards to judge things on, I would help out.

[Humble Master]

I would also judge classes if I have the book for them and you want some help/ second opinion.

[Venger]

If you make some sort of template and standards to judge things on, I would help out.

certainly. I'm doing my best to follow in the footsteps of our friend silverwolfer, who started this thread a few months ago. here's a template you can use for contributions:

Name of book here's where you can put the title of which book you're reviewing. spoiler tags help stop each post from being really long and making the thread horrible and awkward to scroll through

Names of classes bold them to enable a reader to know when you're breaking up your sections and where

Fluff
What is the in-universe backstory for this class? Is there one? how complete is it? is it lacking? if so, why? what do you think of it? do you think the backstory is cool? do you think it's generic? how easy is it for this class to be adapted to any given hypothetical game? does it only fit in a very specific niche? or do you think it could be generally adapted?


Usefulness
Does this class have some kind of clear focus/idea on what it wants you to do? Does there seem to be a concise center around what it's trying to specialize in? Is this class good at what it sets out to do? Are there easier or better alternatives for someone who is looking for a character with this theme?

Overall package

As a whole, with fluff, power, etc. what do you think of this class? is it really interesting and powerful? generic but has unique abilities? has a really cool concept but is lacking on the execution? some other combination?

what a DM should know

if a PC in a game wanted to play this character, what advice would you have for his DM? should he be sensitive to a few shortcomings of the class? should he make an effort to include/not include certain things? is the class so powerful he might ask him to play something else to avoid curbstomping monsters before the rest of the party can contribute? is it so weak that the DM might need to worry if he's going to be able to hold his own?


I would also judge classes if I have the book for them and you want some help/ second opinion.

well all help is certainly appreciated. what are some ignored and/or underappreciated classes you'd like to talk about?

[karkus]

The phrase "Turn Unthread" deserves a response by itself. :smallbiggrin:

Hmm... how about... Assassin?

Now I know what you're thinking; "But, that's already a PrC that we all know and love!" Not my way, it isn't.

Think about all the amazing ways that you can enter this class! You can be a Rogue, obviously, but then there are the awesome Enchanting/luring/completely blend-into-a-crowd-able Bard-Assassins. Not only that, but then there are the kick-ass, dual-dagger-wielding semi-combat-oriented Ranger-Assassins. Then there are the Monk-Assassins.

They look completely harmless. In fact, they don't even need weapons! They can wear whatever; a suit to the Emperor's Ball, or even tattered rags to a public event. They disappear, "Judo Chop!" the head-of-state, then whimper, "Wha-? No, guards, you don't understand! I'm just a poor, defenseless beggar! It's not possible that I could sneak into the fort and kill the general (or whatever that guy was)!" Even when it totally was. :smallamused:

Even better so, they gain speed and AC bonuses, as well as the option to deal non-lethal damage. This presents the opportunity to be a bounty-hunter or information-beater-outer-er. Knock them out, bring them back to base, take 20 on an Intimidate check, coup de grace them afterwards. Information obtained. :smallbiggrin:

[Humble Master]

Basically every PrC from complete Divine is under apreciated/overlooked. Also I just got that book so I'd be interested in looking at them in detail.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Basically every PrC from complete Divine is under apreciated/overlooked. Also I just got that book so I'd be interested in looking at them in detail.
I don't know about that.

I mean, counting the web enhancement:

Black Flame Zealot, Blighter, Entropomancer, Evangelist, Geomancer (2 class entry), Hospitaler, Master of Shrouds (CDiv version)/, Moon Guardian, Table-referencing Rainbow Servant, Shining Blade of Hieronious, Void Disciple and War Priest are well known for losing tons of caster levels and just generally being weaker than their baselines (with the possible exception of void disciple, which is poorly-written enough that some groups let it break campaigns).

Church Inquisitor, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, Dweomerkeeper, Radiant Servant, Text-referencing Rainbow Servant, Sacred Exorcist and Ur-Priest are widely known, used and appreciated.

Of the ones left, I *might* be able to see the canned-casting classes that reference flexible or larger lists, like Consecrated Harrier, Divine Crusader, Holy Liberator and Pious Templar, or a legally-sketchy single-class Geometer (like a Cleric with the Spell domain entering without any arcane casting levels). But the remaining classes tend to have strict enough prerequisites, lackluster enough abilities or restricted enough spell lists not to be all that notable.

Actually, maybe Seeker of the Misty Isle. Even with table-based reading, Travel domain might be a worthwhile dip for a druid (even if elf races don't do most divine casters any favors).

[Humble Master]

I said basically. I there are some good ones like Ur-Priest, Shining Servant of Pelor ect. but the overall vibe I got from a cursory glance at the book was "Why you lose caster levels for stupid abilities?".

[KillingAScarab]

I would like to agree on assassin, but also black flame zealot, needing some love. Black flame zealot being a divine assassin without a new spellcasting progression. Take any non-good divine caster, add a dash of sneak attack, then black flame zealot.

It still works with any divine casting class (though the knowledge prerequisite and the kukri proficiency might need a tweak) and you get a breadth of class skills. There are some mechanics to back up the fluff, like zealous heart. The capstone ability can make a death attack or a sneak attack kill practically un-resurrectible, depending upon the setting. They had the sense to tie the spell-like ability to character level (half, though) rather than your class level. You won't keep up with the primary spellcaster, but practiced spellcaster helps. It's rough around the edges, but it's something I have wanted to try for a long time, if I could find the right campaign.

[Spuddles]

Fiendish Codex 2 has the Hellreaver, a really great prc paladin without the paladin suck. Makes good use of swift actions. Very strong boost to non-ToB melee.