What to do with a party of low lvl wizards?

[Srasy]

What to do with a party of low lvl wizards?
I am trying to think up and most of them either seem to easy or to mean...

If big guy charges he has a good chance of killing in the surprise round but if the wizards get a spell off then he will be trivialized

Hit and run tactics and ambushes seem like they would be devastating...

And swarms seem like they would either destroy the party if they dont run or a make a mini fortress of grease and other cc...

Most of the people in my party are new to wizards. We are starting at level one and going tell we stop (probably before level 10) what do you think are some things that would be difficult but beatable and not be considered overly cruel?

[BBEG]

I would put them up against rival casters for the low levels. Maybe a few apprentices that shared the same master or masters. And well magical rivalry can run pretty deep.

[Flickerdart]

Longbows are decently effective against very low level spellcasters (before wind wall anyway). Attacking under the cover of darkness or using smoke grenades/fog spells would also allow enemies to get in close without being cut down with magic power.

[Drake2009]

Two words : spell resistance. Have them fight drows and such. If they die they can roll a new character possibly not a spell caster. Cause honestly that's a pretty dumb party having all wizards.

[ddude987]

You could always have them fight the turrasque

[Bonzai]

Kid gloves are kind of needed till about 6th level. Essentially one or two encounters a day period. Little in the way of ambushes unless you are certain that they won't kill them. Wizards need to be prepared at those levels, with buffs and the right spells prepped.

Fluff wise, figure that this group of book worms and academics aren't going to be poking their nose into anything without doing their research and accounting for potential difficulties.

By around 6th level or so the party should have their tactics and roles down, enough spells to last through several combats, and the HP to take at least one stray hit. From that point on they will ramp up considerably in power. But early on you need to serve up a few soft pitches to let them warm up on.

I recently played a campaign like this. We all played master specialists of a different school, working for a wizards guild. It was one of the best campaigns I've had in a long time, and was a blast to play. We started out a little slow, but by the end of the campaign we were taking on CR24 encounters at 16th lvl.

[Flickerdart]

Kid gloves are kind of needed till about 6th level. Essentially one or two encounters a day period.
It really depends on their builds. It's fairly trivial (1 normal, 2 focused spec, 1 bonus from Int) to get 4 level 1 spells per day, and if everyone prepares two encounter-ending spells (Sleep and Colour Spray probably), one protection spell (like Mage Armor) and one running away spell (Expeditious Retreat) they should be fine for a full set of 4 encounters, especially if they have stuff like the Animal Companion ACF or Wild Cohort (which they really should).

[Bonzai]

It really depends on their builds. It's fairly trivial (1 normal, 2 focused spec, 1 bonus from Int) to get 4 level 1 spells per day, and if everyone prepares two encounter-ending spells (Sleep and Colour Spray probably), one protection spell (like Mage Armor) and one running away spell (Expeditious Retreat) they should be fine for a full set of 4 encounters, especially if they have stuff like the Animal Companion ACF or Wild Cohort (which they really should).

Of course builds and experience are a factor. But regardless the group is going to need several games to get their act together. Figure out who preps which spells, and who is going to be doing what in an encounter. Once the feeling out period is over, things tend to ramp up from there.

In our case we had a focused Conjurer (me), an Abjurer, Evoker, transmuter, and a Diviner (DM npc). We each had our respective roles that we ended up taking.

Abjurer: Counter magic and debuffer. Could completely shut down enemy casters, and buffs were never a problem.

Conjurer: Battle field control and positioning. Plus I would help with AoE damage when needed. Focused more on offensive teleports to set them up for the Evoker to tee off on.

Evoker: Primary damage dealer. I would dimensional shuffle enemies into evards and caustic mire, and he would lay down the fire balls and direct damage spells.

Transmuter: went into War Weaver. He focused on buffs and problem solving.

Diviner: The was the DM's character. He was there for exposition and information for the most part. He role played and focused on divination's, so he was used more outside of combat and story purposes.

By dividing up responsibilities, and taking advantage of certain builds strengths, the party started doing very well. It also removed all the stress I normally have when selecting spells. I knew what I had to focus on, and could trust my team mates to cover the other bases. This freed me up to try tactics and combos I'd normally never dare try in a group. It proved to be a lot of fun.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Honestly - and weirdly - I'd keep them out of combat for a while, or at least not make combat the purpose of low levels.

Have them trying to do something like topple the (very local, village-type) government, or create peace/war between two factions. Let them have fun coming up with clever uses for their utility magic, etc.

[Humble Master]

Try tailoring certain encounters to be easily beaten with certain spells. Maybe have them fight a warrior who happens to have a good Ref, Will and Fort save as well as some decently heavy armor but little health. Spells like magic missile would work great here. Alternatively you could throw in a monster with high spell resistance. The wizards could fight this one using their buffs to super charge a monster they summoned to kill it.

[gooddragon1]

You could always have them fight the turrasque

And have them level up like 10 times? I think there needs to be more cautious enemies for them to face. :D

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Try tailoring certain encounters to be easily beaten with certain spells. Maybe have them fight a warrior who happens to have a good Ref, Will and Fort save as well as some decently heavy armor but little health. Spells like magic missile would work great here. Alternatively you could throw in a monster with high spell resistance. The wizards could fight this one using their buffs to super charge a monster they summoned to kill it.

I advise against it. The way I see it, there are three ways this could go:

1: Your characters figure out the right thing and win, and everyone has fun.

2: Your characters don't figure out the right thing, and die, and no one has fun.

3: Your characters don't figure out the right thing, so you tell them to bail them out of it, and no one has fun because you're just giving your players a problem and telling them how to solve it.

Only one of these options is any good for you or your game, and you can't rely on that happening.

[Flickerdart]

You forgot 4: They don't guess the solution, because they kill the monster before they land on the correct answer.

[Rukia]

Option 5: Run it as normal and if they die they realize that having 4 wizards at low levels isn't a smart way to play. Players should have fun, but so should the DM. Tailoring an entire game to fit a strangely compiled party isn't my idea of fun as a DM nor is it remotely realistic. If you're campaign was created with a special party in mind then that's one thing, but if it's a normal campaign and the party chooses to have no melee character, no healer, no skill monkey, etc.. then they should not expect the world to be the same.

It's not like 4 wizards wouldn't actually come across a party of pure melee characters that can charge, or a few rogues with bows that have a high chance of winning initiative, etc.. 4 low level wizards entering orc territory should be aware of the dangers of doing such without someone able to stand in front and protect them.

I tell my players that I'm running the game as is, if they're not equipped to handle the situation then it's their failure. To me that is the core of what D&D is all about, having a party that can handle any given situation whatever that may be.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Option 5: Run it as normal and if they die they realize that having 4 wizards at low levels isn't a smart way to play. Players should have fun, but so should the DM. Tailoring an entire game to fit a strangely compiled party isn't my idea of fun as a DM nor is it remotely realistic. If you're campaign was created with a special party in mind then that's one thing, but if it's a normal campaign and the party chooses to have no melee character, no healer, no skill monkey, etc.. then they should not expect the world to be the same.

It's not like 4 wizards wouldn't actually come across a party of pure melee characters that can charge, or a few rogues with bows that have a high chance of winning initiative, etc.. 4 low level wizards entering orc territory should be aware of the dangers of doing such without someone able to stand in front and protect them.

I tell my players that I'm running the game as is, if they're not equipped to handle the situation then it's their failure. To me that is the core of what D&D is all about, having a party that can handle any given situation whatever that may be.

It doesn't sound (to me) like this was a decision they made over the DM's objections - it sounds like the game they're intentionally setting out to play.

Also, kind of have to disagree with you on philosophy, there. D&D is modelling a system too large and too complicated to run on anything like automatic - the DM needs to be active in altering the world and the encounters in order to keep things both interesting and fun.

[Phippster]

Have them fight a Monk.

I'd focus on things that aren't necessarily combat dependent, or that you KNOW can be solved with their selected spells, just with a little ingenuity. If they're fairly optimized casters, they should be fine until they run out of spells, but if they're not, you have to swing it so they don't all die because no one thought Color Spray was a good idea to prepare that morning.

[Deophaun]

Honestly - and weirdly - I'd keep them out of combat for a while, or at least not make combat the purpose of low levels.

Have them trying to do something like topple the (very local, village-type) government, or create peace/war between two factions. Let them have fun coming up with clever uses for their utility magic, etc.
I second this. Murder mysteries, intrigue, etc. Set them up against opponents that they are not allowed to kill and are not allowed to kill them (you're in the middle of a city, and they have laws against killing people). Introduce lethal combat later, when they have the resources to survive it.

[Eman Resu]

3 mind controlled commoners with sticks and pitch forks ought to be challenging enough

[Rukia]

It doesn't sound (to me) like this was a decision they made over the DM's objections - it sounds like the game they're intentionally setting out to play.

Also, kind of have to disagree with you on philosophy, there. D&D is modelling a system too large and too complicated to run on anything like automatic - the DM needs to be active in altering the world and the encounters in order to keep things both interesting and fun.

Of course the DM has to alter it somewhat, that's a given. That's different than completely rewriting every single encounter to cater to the parties lackluster make-up. 4 Wizards are going to be ridiculously powerful at later levels, should they be given an easy path to that inevitable conclusion? "I won't put them up against anything that can charge them, sneak attack them, etc.. so that they won't die." What fun is that? To me that goes against the spirit of D&D, but of course that is just my opinion. No group should be treated so kindly at all times to take advantage of their strengths and cover up their weaknesses. The biggest weakness of a group of low level wizards is survive-ability and it should be something that is an issue during every single encounter they face. Without a front-line fighter who is going to take that first charge? Who is going to stand in the line of fire and take a few hits while the other wizards start casting their spells?

Trying to wrap up the philosophy of D&D in a sentence is futile, however the campaign world should exist the way it is regardless of the party. If the party is a group of all wizards then no low level melee creatures exist to challenge them? What happens if a melee player joins the party? Now there just happen to be some melee enemies? There is no healer so should the party take no damage as well? If there is no rogue then traps don't exist, but if a rogue joins then suddenly traps begin to show up?

I'm an extremely generous DM with allowing my characters to have the freedom to do what they want, play what they want, etc.. However I told them up front that the world exists as-is and I won't be nerfing it to fit their exact makeup. I guess apparently I'm the only one in this thread that feels this way, but I don't believe in an "easy mode" in any game. You come unprepared for the harsh world, then expect the worst. If you come prepared and make solid decisions then no encounter is unbeatable or unescapable if needbe.

[Humble Master]

I'm sorry if my suggestion came off as "go easy on them". Quite the opposite. Make sure that any encounter can be beaten but don't make the solution to every encounter "I cast color spray/grease/sleep". Throw monsters at them that are innately immune to the save or die 1st level spells but make sure that those monsters still have a weakness or else the Wizards will get eaten very soon. If the character die it should be their fault for not thinking tactically. Of course if the first encounter there is a TPK then either the monsters are too strong or someone didn't prepare the right spells. A party of 1st level wizards is going to a delicate balancing act and make sure you tell your players this. But above all things don't go easy on them. They are playing a very strong class and even at 1st level a Wizard rules the battle field surpassed only by the Cleric or Druid. If you just let them cruise through the first few level it won't be any fun because later you will struggle to find things that are challenging for them.

[Spuddles]

It really depends on their builds. It's fairly trivial (1 normal, 2 focused spec, 1 bonus from Int) to get 4 level 1 spells per day, and if everyone prepares two encounter-ending spells (Sleep and Colour Spray probably), one protection spell (like Mage Armor) and one running away spell (Expeditious Retreat) they should be fine for a full set of 4 encounters, especially if they have stuff like the Animal Companion ACF or Wild Cohort (which they really should).

Your focused specialist would only have 3 1st level spells. Focused specialists lose a general spell slot of every level in trade for two specialist slots.


Option 5: Run it as normal and if they die they realize that having 4 wizards at low levels isn't a smart way to play. Players should have fun, but so should the DM. Tailoring an entire game to fit a strangely compiled party isn't my idea of fun as a DM nor is it remotely realistic. If you're campaign was created with a special party in mind then that's one thing, but if it's a normal campaign and the party chooses to have no melee character, no healer, no skill monkey, etc.. then they should not expect the world to be the same.

It's not like 4 wizards wouldn't actually come across a party of pure melee characters that can charge, or a few rogues with bows that have a high chance of winning initiative, etc.. 4 low level wizards entering orc territory should be aware of the dangers of doing such without someone able to stand in front and protect them.

I tell my players that I'm running the game as is, if they're not equipped to handle the situation then it's their failure. To me that is the core of what D&D is all about, having a party that can handle any given situation whatever that may be.

You can come up with a party of 4 wizards (though 6 would be better) that will perform better than most groups.

Wizard power ceiling is very high, even at low levels.

Several of the wizards trade their familiar of an animal companion- riding dogs in studded leather barding. One wizard sells his spellbook and uses the proceeds to purchase magebred war dogs. He then studies out of the other wizards' books.

The wizards carry tower shields to take cover with, and using alchemy/aid another, have a bunch of crafted tangle foot bags. Big guns include color spray and sleep. Blessed bandages & healing belts are purchased early. One wizard can pick up the apprentice feat to nab UMD and UMD wands of lesser vigor.

Access to heavy hitting second level spells like web can be accessed with precocious apprentice.

Traps can be avoided with clever planning- long polls, trained animals, benign transposition and a familiar, etc.

Basically, you can replace your meatwall with war trained riding dogs for like the first 4 or 5 levels.

By level 5, most encounters will need to be beefed up by the DM. Your standard ogre and two goblins, or some skeletons, or what have you, will be absolutely overrun by all the spells at the wizards' disposal.

An elf generalist domain easy bake wizard (keep the spell book & familiar, though) would be the utility. Focused specialist transmuter & conjurer with animal companions would provide a meat wall at early levels and battlefield control/awesome transmutations/summons at higher levels. Another easy bake elf domain generalist could round out the party.

Versatile Spellcaster on the easy bake wizards could get you reliable, albeit costly, access to level 2 and 3 spells two levels before you should. With proper selection, whole encounters can be shut down.

Wild Cohort Feat would be super helpful, as well. For more riding dogs.

The only problem is cross-class handle animal. This can be mitigated by instructing most of your animals out of combat to guard a pack leader or two, by taking 10. With aid another bonus/wild cohort bonus/masterwork item bonus/animal companion bonus a wizard with a charisma as low as 4 shouldn't have issue taking ten to get animal to perform a trained trick. So you instruct the bulk of your animals to guard a pack leader, then in combat wizards take a standard action to command pack leader to attack while hiding behind their tower shields. When pack leader moves, pack moves, and then all riding dogs will attack anything that gets close.

If you really want to go all out, pick up natural bond, to count as a level 4 druid. Then all the wizards can have fleshraker companions at first level.

Wizards are so OP.

[TuggyNE]

Your focused specialist would only have 3 1st level spells. Focused specialists lose a general spell slot of every level in trade for two specialist slots.

A first-level generalist wizard has 3 spell slots before Int bonus. Dropping one for FS and adding two for FS and one for regular specialist means you end up with 5 before Int bonus.

[Spuddles]

A first-level generalist wizard has 3 spell slots before Int bonus. Dropping one for FS and adding two for FS and one for regular specialist means you end up with 5 before Int bonus.

Flickerdart and I are talking about number of 1st level spells, not total spells. If you are talking about total spells per day, a generalist has 5 (3 0th 2 1st) and a focused specialist has 8 (5 0th 3 1st).

Here is the math (sigh) again:

Generalist:
Base 1
Intelligence 1
Total: 2 first level spells.

Specialist
Base 1
Intelligence 1
Specialist 1
Total: 3 1st level spells

Focused Specialist
Base 0
Intelligence 1
Specialist 2
Total: 3 1st level spells.

I will leave 0th level spells as an exercise for the reader.

[Divide by Zero]

Focused Specialist gets 3 specialty school spells per day (2 plus the 1 for being a specialist). Otherwise there would be no point in being a Focused Specialist :smallconfused:

[Spuddles]

Focused Specialist gets 3 specialty school spells per day (2 plus the 1 for being a specialist). Otherwise there would be no point in being a Focused Specialist :smallconfused:

Huh. I always thought focused specialist was an underwhelming option. I'll have to look at CM again.

[visigani]

Why has no one mentioned the usage of crossbows and longbow for elves? These items are relatively inexpensive and can be devastating to enemies, especially when using focus fire. At first level a wizard has only slightly less chance than a fighter of equal level to land a crossbow shot... and that shot will kill many low level enemies outright.

[TuggyNE]

Flickerdart and I are talking about number of 1st level spells, not total spells. If you are talking about total spells per day, a generalist has 5 (3 0th 2 1st) and a focused specialist has 8 (5 0th 3 1st).

Arggg, I failed epically, reading the wrong chart. :smallsigh::smallredface: Disregard my misguided correction. (Well, aside from the point reiterated by Divide by Zero that FS actually gets 3 spells for the price of 1.)

[ericgrau]

Their 1st level spells are mostly irrelevant unless they go first. If the monster goes first and rolls well, a character could drop that same round. If 2 do in the first round, it could weaken the party enough for a TPK. If it doesn't happen one fight, it could happen the next fight, or the one after that, etc.

So you do need to be careful with them. Instead of letting them wander aimlessly they could be hired for specific tasks that put them at lower risk. Makes sense to use them for what they're good at, after all. Encounters should be mostly in or near the city, usually in broad daylight, with a direct route to the situation, so they're less like to be ambushed.

The short travel also opens them up to hour/level and 10 min/duration spells that can be active regardless of who goes first. Encourage spells like mage armor, false life and alter self natural armor. Unseen servants holding cloaks in a person-like shape can go ahead of the party.

Lastly you could try to use things that can't crit for more than 14 damage and that by the plot aren't motivated to murder. Thieves, for example, may risk pickpocketing or burglarly charges but not murder charges.

[Spuddles]

Their 1st level spells are mostly irrelevant unless they go first. If the monster goes first and rolls well, a character could drop that same round. If 2 do in the first round, it could weaken the party enough for a TPK. If it doesn't happen one fight, it could happen the next fight, or the one after that, etc.

That's true of any 1st level party, regardless of composition. Except maybe dragonwrought kobolds with epic toughness.

[ericgrau]

Others don't die in 1 hit even 1/3rd as often; perhaps 1/6th as often because you usually need a crit. Even a deadly orc averages only 9 damage. And others survive the crit, while a crit on a wizard goes from full health to roll a new character.

[Rukia]

Your focused specialist would only have 3 1st level spells. Focused specialists lose a general spell slot of every level in trade for two specialist slots.



You can come up with a party of 4 wizards (though 6 would be better) that will perform better than most groups.

Wizard power ceiling is very high, even at low levels.

Several of the wizards trade their familiar of an animal companion- riding dogs in studded leather barding. One wizard sells his spellbook and uses the proceeds to purchase magebred war dogs. He then studies out of the other wizards' books.

The wizards carry tower shields to take cover with, and using alchemy/aid another, have a bunch of crafted tangle foot bags. Big guns include color spray and sleep. Blessed bandages & healing belts are purchased early. One wizard can pick up the apprentice feat to nab UMD and UMD wands of lesser vigor.

Access to heavy hitting second level spells like web can be accessed with precocious apprentice.

Traps can be avoided with clever planning- long polls, trained animals, benign transposition and a familiar, etc.

Basically, you can replace your meatwall with war trained riding dogs for like the first 4 or 5 levels.

By level 5, most encounters will need to be beefed up by the DM. Your standard ogre and two goblins, or some skeletons, or what have you, will be absolutely overrun by all the spells at the wizards' disposal.

An elf generalist domain easy bake wizard (keep the spell book & familiar, though) would be the utility. Focused specialist transmuter & conjurer with animal companions would provide a meat wall at early levels and battlefield control/awesome transmutations/summons at higher levels. Another easy bake elf domain generalist could round out the party.

Versatile Spellcaster on the easy bake wizards could get you reliable, albeit costly, access to level 2 and 3 spells two levels before you should. With proper selection, whole encounters can be shut down.

Wild Cohort Feat would be super helpful, as well. For more riding dogs.

The only problem is cross-class handle animal. This can be mitigated by instructing most of your animals out of combat to guard a pack leader or two, by taking 10. With aid another bonus/wild cohort bonus/masterwork item bonus/animal companion bonus a wizard with a charisma as low as 4 shouldn't have issue taking ten to get animal to perform a trained trick. So you instruct the bulk of your animals to guard a pack leader, then in combat wizards take a standard action to command pack leader to attack while hiding behind their tower shields. When pack leader moves, pack moves, and then all riding dogs will attack anything that gets close.

If you really want to go all out, pick up natural bond, to count as a level 4 druid. Then all the wizards can have fleshraker companions at first level.

Wizards are so OP.

I agree with your assessment that they "can" be built properly to survive, my point was that because of this they shouldn't be treated any differently than a normal party. No reason to go easy on them because "they're wizards". However based off what the OP said my guess is they aren't this optimized and are probably all just taking basic Wizard without much optimization hence he was worried about their survival. My basic idea was if they're just playing 4 standard wizards then they probably would have a hard time and shouldn't be babied.

[Srasy]

Thanks a lot guys this thread is helping me advise my group in making thier wizards