Re-Tooling the Sorcerer?

[Gemini Lupus]

So, I was trying to get to sleep, when all of a sudden, a thought struck me. What if the Sorcerer had 3/4 BAB instead of 1/2? So now, I pose this question to the Playground. How would that effect the balance of the game? I play Pathfinder, and while I think this would step on the toes of the Magus, would it be that big of a deal?

Also, since I'm posing a question about modifying the Sorcerer, I may as well let y'all know about what mods I already use and inquire as to what you guys think about it.

For Spells Known, I allow the Sorcerer to learn 3 new spells of any level s/he can cast, one of which must be of the maximum level they are able to cast.

I also allow the use of Derivative Spell Knowledge, which allows for Sorcerers to automatically learn spells of the same spell line without costing a known spell slot. So, if you take Summon Monster I, you will automatically learn SM II-IX when you become the appropriate level. It originated here on the Homebrew Board, but I cannot find it right now, just for reference.

So, what is the verdict on these changes? How do you think they affect the Sorcerer's relationship with other classes?

Thanks in advance!

[Flickerdart]

A sorcerer interested in touch attacks doesn't need any more to-hit than he does already. A sorcerer interested in regular attacks has so many ways of boosting them that a +5 won't change very much. I suppose one thing it would do is make staying in-class more viable for gishing it up, but I don't know enough about Pathfinder to comment further down that line of thought.

[ericgrau]

Ranged touch attack bonus remains relevant until around level 10, or against some foes and without ranged feats until around 15. It's due to poor BAB, firing into melee and cover. I think sometimes people forget that there are levels before 20.

But except on ray casters and gishes medium BAB wouldn't make a huge difference one way or another. I'd have to run some numbers to see if a sorc 20 "gish" is viable. At roughly a -3 to hit and only a +2 caster level on buffs (plus better buffs and more of them), he probably wouldn't be that good at attacking and would start wondering why he's not chucking offensive spells 100% of the time instead. But it might be worthwhile sometimes.

I wouldn't mess with extra spells known. Most casual players don't swap wizard spell lists that often, most hardcore players still can't because the DM is too casual and you can't divine what he hasn't yet put in the world. So you shouldn't rush headlong into "solving" issues that may not even exist. You'll only have casual players wondering why the sorc is so OP and then when you show them all the theory they'll just scratch their heads about things they don't understand and were never about to attempt anyway.

[Juntao112]

More spells known is going to up the power level of a sorcerer far more than a higher BAB.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Why are you buffing the sorcerer?

[Andion Isurand]

How about brewing a metamagic feat that allows you to roll one attack involving the spell's effect twice and keep the better result?

As far as firing into melee and such is concerned, if this were 3.5, I'd say there's always the heroics spell to grant a feat or two.

There is also an issue of Dragon Magazine that adds extra spells to sorcerer's class list for certain races and for half-orc and orc sorcerers... divine power and righteous might are two spells they can choose as spells known. One could easily add spells that don't involve saving throws to the sorcerer class spell lists of other races with a charisma penalty, such as a teifling, shield dwarf or snow elf.

[Eugenides]

Why are you buffing the sorcerer?

Basically my thoughts exactly. It may not be the strongest spellcaster out there. This is a GOOD thing. We need to bring classes below it up and others above it down.

[ArcturusV]

Well, it'd make it easier to qualify for some PrCs which require Spellcasting and a +X Base Attack Bonus. In the current game I'm playing if that existed I'd be entering Anointed Knight 1 level earlier than I currently am going to be (Not a serious optimized character, but he has 4 int so I feel justified in him not making all the best choices after all, allowing me to not outside the Paladin and Warlock).

Probably not a huge thing. It's not going to make the sorcerer all that much more powerful, other than PrC requirements. And I'm not even sure the PrCs that require both Arcane Casting and a BAB requirement are so powerful that entering 1 level earlier would break things open like an over ripe melon.

[Tragak]

And maybe Sorcerers should start with Eschew Materials the way Wizards start with Scribe Scroll?

I'm thinking that the idea that Sorcerers depend on natural talent instead of education means that, not only should they be able to make magic stuff happen without having to research special chemical recipes, but they would need to, since they weren't taught what bat guano and sulfur are for.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm not certain the Sorcerer needs much help. If I were going to bring one thing from PF over to 3.5, it would be the idea of bloodlines. And as someone mentioned, automatic Eschew Materials. Both of these seem more in line of flavor than crunch, although the PF bloodlines provide some nice crunch.

Trade the familiar for the bloodline?

Anyway, giving a sorcerer more spells to choose from is equivalent to giving a wizard more spells cast per day - you are taking the class "shortcoming" wrt to the alternative, and removing it. I don't much like that.

Finally, I get around to OP's original question, regarding BAB. I could see a specialist ACF sorcerer that traded better BAB for something else ... maybe give up a school or two of spell accessibility.