Is Tome of Battle Right for Me?

[zoobob9]

There's a character of mine that I've built and rebuilt several times. He's a bull rush/trip/power attack tank sort of character.

I've heard great things about Tome of Battle, but after looking through the stances and maneuvers for a while, I couldn't find anything that would benefit this particular character.

Is there anything I'm missing? Is there something in this book that would really enhance the whole bull rush/trip/power attack abilities?

Of course, I've seen some things in here that work fantastically with other builds of mine, so don't think that I'm condemning the book or anything.

[Flickerdart]

The throws of the Setting Sun discipline might help with tripping, but generally people who want to bull rush go Dungeoncrasher Fighter (Dungeonscape ACF) and never look back.

[zoobob9]

The throws of the Setting Sun discipline might help with tripping, but generally people who want to bull rush go Dungeoncrasher Fighter (Dungeonscape ACF) and never look back.

That's pretty much what this build is, with a bit of personal flavor in it.

[Deophaun]

The throws of the Setting Sun discipline might help with tripping, but generally people who want to bull rush go Dungeoncrasher Fighter (Dungeonscape ACF) and never look back.
Correction: they never look back until level 7.

About the only thing that ToB offers specifically for your build is a single Stone Dragon stance that will give you a +2 to your strength checks. There is also thicket of blades, which is amazing for an area-denial tripper. Worth the crusader dip for two or three levels, at least.

[Urpriest]

Free movement is a biggie. Even if you get Pounce from somewhere else, things like Sudden Leap can be quite useful.

For this sort of character you probably don't want to focus on strikes, but on boosts and counters. Diamond Mind to buff your saves, Iron Heart parries, stances that boost damage or attack, boosts that give extra attacks...build off your main tactic, essentially.

[Big Fau]

Realistically speaking, there will be things in this game you simply won't be able to Trip/Bull Rush. Against enemies like that, The Bo9S allows you to change from "I charge it, taking a -20 for Shock Trooper" to "I use White Raven Tactics on the Wizard, then I use the Pouncing Charge maneuver+Shock Trooper to kill something big".

And it lets you save your ass when you get hit by Dominate Person (Moment of Perfect Mind!).

[Darthteej]

Honestly, if you're going with any sort of combat maneuver(PF's general term for bull rush, trip, etc.) focused build, the best choice is to start investing in size categories.

ToB wise...there's some stuff in Stone Dragon, but most of it's defense oriented. There are some overrun related maneuvers, including one that lets you trample, but generally not much. I'll second Setting Sun-a fair amount of it's maneuvers rely upon strength checks and tripping and the like, which is something you're going to be investing in any.

You also mentioned doing a bit of tanking, and ToB is great for that. Dipping in crusader can give you the damage pool, and access to devoted spirit, the tankiest of the disciplines.

Honestly, it sounds like your use for the Tome would be more dipping and cherry picking, not relying on it. As awesome a splatbook as it is, it can't do everything for warriors :smalltongue:

[LTwerewolf]

Think of it as the difference between tier 3 and 4. It may not directly help the one trick you're going for in all occasions, but it does give you more tricks for when that one isn't appropriate.

[Talionis]

I like Tome of Battle for dips more than I like playing the whole characters. If you take just a level or two of it and spread them out you can pick between the best maneuvers and stances that will help your character the most. Many of the ToB Setting Sun trips and Disarms, don't allow for a opposing chance to trip or disarm you, which can be helpful depending on the build.

If you want even more poorly layed out book, you could try Magic of Incarnum. It has a feat that works really well with Bull Rush and Tripping giving a big bonus that can be increased with more incarnum. Incarnum is another book that is wonderful for just dipping, since the amount of Incarnum you can put into feats is generally capped by character level.

You can also get a big potential boost from Marshall from the Minatures Book since you can get Charisma bonus aura to all those things with a one level dip. But your character might not have the Charisma for it.

[Callin]

White Raven for those OH SO DELICIOUS charge maneuvers.

Lvl 2 Maneuver
Strike
1 full action

As part of this maneuver you charge your opponent. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving as part of this charge. If your charge attack hits you deal an extra 10 points of damage.

[Evard]

White Raven for those OH SO DELICIOUS charge maneuvers.

Lvl 2 Maneuver
Strike
1 full action

As part of this maneuver you charge your opponent. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving as part of this charge. If your charge attack hits you deal an extra 10 points of damage.

Which is enough to kill most low level monsters :D

[Malachei]

I consider Tome of Battle to be among the best 3.5 supplements. It might even help your tripper/charger/PA character become even more versatile.

[Shining Wrath]

AFB, but:

There are some higher level Diamond Blade stances that will give you extra AoO, above and beyond Combat Reflexes. That's pretty nice for a Tripper.

I cannot think of ANY melee character who can't benefit from Greater Invisibility, granted via Shadow Hand at level 2 IIRC. The ability to move to where you want to be without provoking, then attack with the benefits of invisibility.

Stone Dragon's Stone Minotaur lets you charge without provoking AoO.

There are some Diamond Mind maneuvers that let you move, do something, then move again.

As mentioned, Sudden Leap from Tiger Claw lets you jump as a swift action. So if you want to line someone up with someone or something, you can SL, then do your Bull Rush.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The 'concentration check for a saving throw' maneuvers can save your bacon when someone targets a bum save. IHS is a great 'get out of trouble' card. These give you some additional defensive abilities.

Thicket of Blades is great for tripping builds. White Raven can help out with charging build damage.

Pouncing Charge can get you into position if you don't have access to Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian dip. The xIng Mongoose line gives bonus attacks that stacks with Haste.

There are some interesting combos with Setting Sun. Shifting Stance + ways to generate a miss can make you practically immune to melee attacks. He attacks, he misses, you step out of reach, he's pretty much stuck there looking at you.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Bloodstorm Blade + Dungeoncrasher + Knockback = fun times.

[Juntao112]

There's a character of mine that I've built and rebuilt several times. He's a bull rush/trip/power attack tank sort of character.

I've heard great things about Tome of Battle, but after looking through the stances and maneuvers for a while, I couldn't find anything that would benefit this particular character.

Is there anything I'm missing? Is there something in this book that would really enhance the whole bull rush/trip/power attack abilities?

Of course, I've seen some things in here that work fantastically with other builds of mine, so don't think that I'm condemning the book or anything.
No. There is nothing in Tome of Battle for you. Not only should you refrain from using the book, you should mail it to me so that it will never trouble you again.

[undead hero]

No. There is nothing in Tome of Battle for you. Not only should you refrain from using the book, you should mail it to me so that it will never trouble you again.

There fixed that for you :smallbiggrin:

But seriously if the question is "I'm playing 3.5 D&D and I want to be a competent melee type, is ToB for me?"

The answer is yes, always yes.