[3.5] Monks are overpowered, and seriously need to be nerfed!

[Cruiser1]

I love playing D&D, with its incredible depth and numerous options. The various character classes cover almost every role imaginable, where most classes feature areas where they specialize and are effective, and have other areas where they're weaker and need assistance. However, one obvious exception to game balance is the Monk, which is grossly overpowered when compared to other classes. Let's look at a few of the ways in which Monks are superior to the wimpy excuses for other classes:

Many abilities: The Monk has numerous abilities, most of which are (Ex). Put a Wizard in an antimagic field and they're nothing but a Commoner (with the player probably crying like a spoiled child about unfair DM's). Put a Monk in an antimagic field and they hardly feel a thing.
Roles: Effectiveness in a D&D party is defined by what roles you can effectively fill, such as tank, scout, skill monkey, sage, party face, healbot, and magic/utility. The Monk can fill all these roles at once: Tank (many attacks), scout (fast movement), skill monkey (many skill points), sage (Knowledge skills as class skills), party face (Diplomacy as class skill), healbot (Wholeness of Body for self healing), and magic/utility (Abundant Step for teleport, quivering palm for Save or Die).
High saves: Monk has all three good saves, unlike every other base class. High level combat is all about saving throws. I remember reading a thread about a Monk who got tossed through a Prismatic Wall and was unharmed due to making all seven saving throws! Every class can buff their saves, but the Monk has the highest base saves, meaning all things equal the Monk is most survivable.
Attacks: D&D is all about action economy. More attacks is effectively more actions. The smart player will notice Monk's don't have full BAB (one of the few things WotC did right to help balance this class) but with buffs any character can get BAB=character level, meaning extra attacks wins the day.
Defense: An effective build means good defense as much as good offense. A Monk is immune to both disease and poison, so they rarely ever need to use their high saving throw bonuses in the first place. Combine that with spell resistance, Slow Fall for any distance, Still Mind, and Improved Evasion, and the Monk is nearly impossible to kill.
Fight all day: Unlike wimpy casters that quickly run out of spells, a Monk can adventure all day. Again, it's all about action economy. A Monk can gain several levels a day, since they never need to rest. Wimpy casters like Wizard want the party to rest after every encounter. At that rate a Monk in the gameworld reaches level 20 before the Wizard is level 3.
Equipment independent: When a class needs to rely on equipment to fill its shortcomings, it shows the class is deficient. A Monk is almost as effective naked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45529) as it is with gear. A fighter without his sword and armor can't do much. Casters are even more pathetic. Take away a Wizard's spellbook, and they're nothing but a Commoner with a crossbow. Sunder a Cleric's holy symbol or a caster's spell component pouch and they lose half their spells. I've seen threads where people say just don't play with DM's that do things like that. I say it really shows how weak classes like Cleric and Wizard are when the DM has to design encounters to coddle their deficiencies.
No dead levels: Monk (and Barbarian) is the only class with no dead levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a). All other base classes have several. When WotC tries to patch other classes after the fact with additional abilities, it shows how they're underpowered compared to the awesomeness that is Monk.
Dipping: Monk is such a good class other supposedly non-Monk builds often include a level or two of Monk. When everybody wants to be like you, you're obviously doing something right.
Cool factor: We play D&D to have fun. Ignoring balance, a Monk is just plain cool compared to other classes. A Wizard is a nerdy old guy in a dress. However a Monk is a dashing martial arts action hero straight out of the movies with stylish flair and a fistful of awesome moves!

Because Monks are so strong, effective, and overpowered, I propose the following set of house rule fixes to make them more balanced with other classes. These nerfs allows people to still play Monks if they want to, without the DM having to ban the class altogether:

Monk's always gain XP 20% slower (same as the multiclassing XP penalty) since they have so many abilities it's like they're several classes in one already.
Give Monk bad Fort and Will saves, so they have just one good save like other classes.
Drop Monk to poor BAB bonus, since they have so many attacks.
Drop Monk to d6 HD, so they potentially have a chance to get low on hp like other classes.

PS: Happy April Fool's Day everyone! ;)

[Juntao112]

It is true. The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

However, if I may may some suggestions as to your treatise?


Tank (many attacks), scout (fast movement), skill monkey (many skill points), sage (Knowledge skills as class skills), party face (Diplomacy as class skill), healbot (Wholeness of Body for self healing), and magic/utility (Abundant Step for teleport, quivering palm for Save or Die).
The tank role is one which draws aggro. Monks fulfill this role by having high AC - not only do they get an AC bonus from their class, but they add their Wisdom modifier to their AC on top of their Dexterity modifier.

Their many attacks allow them to be strikers - yet another party role taken by the monk.

You have also forgotten to mention the number of bonus feats the monk gets, without needing to fulfill the prerequisites for. Not even the barbarian can simply take feats that way. Indeed, the barbarian class grants no bonus feats.

In addition, monks can never be disarmed of their unarmed strikes, unlike the fighter or barbarian.

[Malroth]

Ahh monk-day threads where wizards fight trolls for forum XP

[Feralventas]

Gosh, Monks are OP, but have you even heard of this Truenamer crap they were putting out back in the end of 3.5? Their casting is based on a SKILL CHECK! Even if it allows a DC, they're still almost automatically going to succeed, and half their abilities are party buffs. Who the heck thought That was a good idea?

[GolemsVoice]

Monk is cool? How can the monk be any cooler than the FIGHTER? Basically, the fighter does everything your monk can do (high saves? Get magic items, come on!), but they do it with a SWORD. A sword is officially the coolest weapon there is on earth, otherwise it wouldn't have been used for 2000 years.

But even if you don't want swords, you can get ANY weapon, even a bow. Can your monk hit the fighter with his fists when he's full of arrows?

[Jopustopin]

I was drinking mountain dew with my buddy and we made a caffeinated inspired bet about who would win 1 monk vs 15 lightning warriors (level 20). A true power vs flavor event. I built 15 unique builds and was pitted against this over powered base class.

The monk of course won (he got to pick the arena and he chose an antimagic field inside a huge magnet so all my weapons got stuck to the ceiling and I couldn't use any magic). I probably would have won if I could have specialized in a school. He was really shocked when I had one of my lightning warriors take the obtain familiar feat. Almost got that upset but a couple bad rolls pretty much sealed my fate. BTW: The monk was literally not handicapped at all inside the arena.

[Malak'ai]

Ditch the Fighter. The class you want is the Samurai from Complete Warrior!
Free EWP, TWF, ITWF, GTWF and Quick Draw feats! And don't forget his badass Intimidate skills. :smallwink:

[gooddragon1]

Monk and samurai are not comparable to the truenamer. Unlimited use of abilities that are better than spells? Freedom of movement at level 1? Unlimited healing to full? All they have to do is use skill checks. Seriously, just get a +30 item with these guys, skill focus, a +2 masterwork item, stat booster, 1 level dip in marshal, and some good stats and you have unbelievably strong abilities.

EDIT: Just checked, even the tier guide to classes notes them as being broken.


...And then there's the Truenamer, which is just broken...

[MirddinEmris]

Well, of course there are also such broken things like Aristocrat and Expert (ANY ten SKILLS AS CLASS SKILLS, OMG WTF!). It's just good that they are NPC classes and no sane DM will allow them in actual play for a PC

[Eldest]

Not as broken as Commoner. Infinite chickens and a bonus feat, at first level?

[TypoNinja]

Is it, I think it is....

It's a lame attempt at humor!

This calls for a Rimshot! (http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot)

[Gnorman]

Is it, I think it is....

It's a lame attempt at humor!

This calls for a Rimshot! (http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot)

Awww, you broke the streak.

[ArcturusV]

Is it sad that I can't tell if the first post is sarcasm or actually a compilation of one of the usual monk day defenders? Other than referencing Dead Levels it seems almost to be a montage of stuff I've read in these topics. Good Saves, Slow Falling, SR, Five Fingers of Death, Flurry of Win, etc.

Also forgot the totally broken Monk PrCs that give you everything a monk would have, AND more benefits for no cost. I mean Shintao Monk gives you a free Character Level Hours long bonus to a stat per day, at first level! For nothing. Still getting your OP monk abilities.

[Gnorman]

Is it sad that I can't tell if the first post is sarcasm or actually a compilation of one of the usual monk day defenders? Other than referencing Dead Levels it seems almost to be a montage of stuff I've read in these topics. Good Saves, Slow Falling, SR, Five Fingers of Death, Flurry of Win, etc.

Also forgot the totally broken Monk PrCs that give you everything a monk would have, AND more benefits for no cost. I mean Shintao Monk gives you a free Character Level Hours long bonus to a stat per day, at first level! For nothing. Still getting your OP monk abilities.

It's obviously sarcasm. Check the posting date.

[ArcturusV]

Though if you looked at another Monk Day Topic, you can probably cull the posts of Monk Defenders and short of "Other classes have Dead Levels" probably get all of the Monks are Awesome points. So it might be mockery of them rather than sarcasm necessarily.

... or I should get some sleep.

[Killer Angel]

Is it, I think it is....

It's a lame attempt at humor!

It's because playgrounders have this feat, called "summon april's fools". Sadly, it works only on the first of april, so it's a trap.

[Malroth]

hey maybe we'll get more cat feats out of it

[T.G. Oskar]

It's because playgrounders have this feat, called "summon april's fools". Sadly, it works only on the first of april, so it's a trap.

Hey: some Playgrounders exchanged that feat for "Dia de los Inocentes". That feat works on an entirely different day, y'know...

*writes this after recovering from laughter-produced suffocation*

[Thespianus]

It's because playgrounders have this feat, called "summon april's fools". Sadly, it works only on the first of april, so it's a trap.

You can get your own plane where it is always first of April, though. ;) Then it is *awesome*

[TuggyNE]

You can get your own plane where it is always first of April, though. ;) Then it is *awesome*

Airplane, or demiplane?

[Thespianus]

Airplane, or demiplane?

Not airplane, Monks can't Fly.

[navar100]

Today is not just any Monday, folks.

[Karnith]

Today is not just any Monday, folks.
Today is the happiest Mon(k)day of the year!

[Shining Wrath]

Monks turn MAD into a virtue! Don't mess with MAD Monks on Monkday!

More virtues of the awesome Monk class:
1) No spellbooks to lug around / protect!
2) They can put virtually their entire wealth into looking beautiful, as they need no magic items, no spells no weapons, and no armor! Monks make sorcerers and bards look homely!
3) Unlike Druids and Rangers, they don't have to carry ginormous litterboxes around with them for their lame-o animal companions to use at the MOST INCONVENIENT TIMES. Seriously, who wants to clean up after a Dire Bear that just chewed through a bunch of rotting zombies?
4) You can memorize the lyrics to Kung Fu Fighting and sing the entire song, in character, every time you make an attack! Your fellow party members will be rolling on the floor! For added grins, play a half-elf named Presley. Get it? Elvish Presley, singing Kung Fu Fighting? Oh I slay myself with my wit!

[maximus25]

2/10, best I can give you. It was too obvious, might get some people though.

[Flickerdart]

Monks being MAD is an old and deeply entrenched myth that stems from rollplayers trying to use Monk with the well-known powergaming method of point buy. Real roleplayers who roll stats as they were meant to be rolled (3d6 in order) will find that the Monk is uniquely suited to this generation method. Whichever high stats are rolled, the Monk can take advantage of them. Got a good Strength score? Punch stuff. Got a good Dexterity? Dodge stuff, or even use a sling. A good Constitution boosts the Monk's fearsome staying power, Intelligence grants them even more skill points for their powerful skill list, and Wisdom powers the Monk's devastating Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm attacks while also boosting his AC. Perhaps the most powerful of all is Charisma, because you can combine it with cross-class ranks in Use Magic Device to nullify any advantage spellcasters might have over you.

Truly, no class takes advantage of as many ability scores as the Monk.

[Karnith]

Truly, no class takes advantage of as many ability scores as the Monk.
Spoilered for not being funny:
Did you take that straight from Sir_Giacomo's old monk guide? The one with grapple-flurries and partially-charged wands? Because I'm pretty sure that was his actual, serious argument.

[Lupus753]

Yeah, Monks are awesome! They're very easy to acquire and yet are one of the most powerful classes around! They have absurdly high HP (which makes up for their inability to wear helmets) and their abilities are great. Barehanded lets the Monk outdamage everything but a Knight wielding the best swords. Combined with the Ninja's Dual-wield ability and they will deal more damage than anything ever. They can counter any melee attack, heal themselves for HP and mana, revive adjacent teammates, punch guys several squares away, and split the ground to do Earth damage. Only the fearsome Arithmetician (and maybe the Samurai, with its ability to block nearly any physical attack) can outdo the Monk in sheer usefulness.

You get a Lupine No-Prize if you know what game I'm talking about.

[IamL]

OOH! OOH! PICK ME! PICK ME! I KNOW! THE ANSWER IS:
FINAL FANTASY TACTICS...THAT GAME WAS AMAZING

bonus points if you can find my answer.

[Lupus753]

Excellent! Here's your Lupine No-Prize:

[IamL]

Oh, I've imagined this moment for years, but nothing could have prepared me for the thrill of this prize...Will add it to my signature.:smallbiggrin:

[Telonius]

Monks are indeed awesome, but especially so when combined with levels of Truenamer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-147518.html).

[Flickerdart]

Spoilered for not being funny:
Did you take that straight from Sir_Giacomo's old monk guide? The one with grapple-flurries and partially-charged wands? Because I'm pretty sure that was his actual, serious argument.
He definitely recommended partially-charged wands, but I don't think he ever suggested that Monks are better off for being MAD - indeed, I am pretty sure the Monks he actually built dumped Wisdom like it was poison. Someone totally did make this argument for reals, but I think it was a different poster.

[Lupus753]

Oh, I'd believe that. I once ran across someone who argued that Fighters level up quadratically - compared to the more linear growth of Wizards - because they get lots of hit points. Of course, monster attacks scale up far faster than that, making health and health damage worthless before long, but I'm not sure if she realized that.

[Greenish]

Monk is cool? How can the monk be any cooler than the FIGHTER? Basically, the fighter does everything your monk can do (high saves? Get magic items, come on!), but they do it with a SWORD. A sword is officially the coolest weapon there is on earth, otherwise it wouldn't have been used for 2000 years.Fighters? FIGHTERS?! Yes, swords are cool, but what are the coollest, sharpest, shiniest, swordiest swords of all? Katana! And guess who uses a katana? That's right, the Samurai!

[Karnith]

He definitely recommended partially-charged wands, but I don't think he ever suggested that Monks are better off for being MAD - indeed, I am pretty sure the Monks he actually built dumped Wisdom like it was poison. Someone totally did make this argument for reals, but I think it was a different poster.
Continued spoilers to avoid detracting from monks, fighters, and samurai being awesome:
I actually found the quote that I was thinking of, from his "Beating Batman" guide:
Most of the times, you’ll read about a very popular monk myth, the multi ability dependence (MAD). Allegedly, the monk has to have more high stats everywhere than everyone else
True, the monk can make use out of great scores in all his abilites. So can everyone else. No difference. So everyone is MAD (multi ability dependendet), to the same degree. Or no one is. It is that simple.
Examples: a fighter who wishes to be strong in combat and still not a complete klutz for skills nor easy victim to will-based saves (alongside vital spot and listen checks) will need exactly the same amount of high abilities. Even batman who loves “dump stats” and only focuses on INT, DEX and CON will then see there are problems with his low stats in STR (hit by ray of enfeeblement? There goes that spellbook), WIS (oh noes! Enemy maxed casters could target a wizard with WILL saves? Really? And how do I spot/listen my enemies again?), or CHR (enchanters at the very least like this score rather high).
Overall, as for casters using “dump” stats and the like…well, they are the only ones who even NEED certain minimum scores to function at all. The monk can have WIS of 8, or, for that matter, an 8 IN ALL STATS and still use all his class abilities to his heart’s content. You get the idea...
As an aside, the monk’s bonus feats like combat reflexes and improved trip and even improved grapple do not require the minimum stats that other characters need to have. So if there is one of the classes in the core game that has no MAD, it’s the monk.
So, not so much that being MAD is a good thing, but just arguing that monks aren't MAD. Which makes about as much sense.

[Lupus753]

^^They can defeat nearly any foe by staring at it hard enough! Tell me that isn't awesome!

[Kuulvheysoon]

Fighters?

Come on, guys - we all know that the Warrior is a better class. Who needs all those feats? They've got sheer chutzpah!

[CIDE]

STAHP THESE THREADS!

You'll give one of my DM's (who legitimately thinks Monks are overpowered) ammo to use against me/us!

[koboldish]

I need to go make a dwarf monk/reaping mauler now. Very nice thread, and very true (yeah.... Sure.....). Lotsa great humor.






Also, nice April Fool, especially on a Mon(k)day!

[Kuulvheysoon]

STAHP THESE THREADS!

You'll give one of my DM's (who legitimately thinks Monks are overpowered) ammo to use against me/us!

Note the date on the original post.

[Arranis Thelmos]

Happy Monkday! You don't know how happy I am to see this thread. No one I'd more MAD about the Monk than me. Someday I need to tell you guys about Pappy Whackkerson -- my Monk/Samurai multiclass character with levels in Duelist.




:smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

One of my DMs bans monks and fighters for being overpowered. The monk part was based on internet forums from a few years ago and dual fights with the right abilities. Fighter because you can get a reliable high damage output from feats.

I don't lend too much credence to anything on the internet in one direction or the other, but his rules always amuses me when I see monk or fighter threads. Now there's a lot of interconnect between the WotC forums, giantitp and enworld forums so opinions only tend to vary on lesser things. But I bet if you went to forums in another language you'd find a few completely different things that were supposedly way overpowered or underpowered. Even in English nobody can agree on "fixes" and one forum's absolutely necessity is another's horrible broken failure at a fix.

[White_Drake]

Nah, real optimizers use Samurai. Damn you, Shneeky!

[Cruiser1]

Also, nice April Fool, especially on a Mon(k)day!
Yes, Giant in the Playground has a tradition of humorous posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108302) on this day of the year. :smallwink:

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Fact 1: You can kill anything by punching it in the neck. Anything.
Fact 2: Nobody is as good as monks at punching stuff in the neck.

Conclusion: Monks are the best class.

[koboldish]

Well... That kinda follows the same logic as:
Penguins are black and white.
Old TV shows are black and white.
Therefore old TV shows are penguins.

It makes perfect sense. Monks are obviously the best!

I forget where I saw this, but I did not come up with it and am not claiming it as my own. Plaugerism is terrible.

[Greenish]

Fact 1: You can kill anything by punching it in the neck. Anything.
Fact 2: Nobody is as good as monks at punching stuff in the neck.

Conclusion: Monks are the best class.It's true, monk punches even cause lumi* to spontaneously grow necks just for them to be punched!


*http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/83020.jpg

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Giraffes should have the lowest CR of any monster. Lumi should have the highest. It's just another example to the terrible balance system that let the monk get so far ahead of everyone else.

[Greenish]

Giraffes should have the lowest CR of any monster. Lumi should have the highest. It's just another example to the terrible balance system that let the monk get so far ahead of everyone else.And hydra's CR should go down as the grow more heads (and thus more necks to punch).

[Douglas]

A perfect example of how monks are overpowered (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3DWCGs3Tl8).

[Phippster]

Honestly, I think the worst part is that WOTC clearly did not consider inter-party balance when it came to classes with such sheer power as things like the monk and the truenamer. Not even when it came to the company's namesake; the Wizard!

Wizards are just absolutely terrible, especially at low levels. The class is awful until it gets Fireball, which is hands-down the best thing on its meager spell list. And even once you get that, half the enemies in the game get Fire Resistance, meaning your BEST SPELL is made USELESS! I suppose you could go with their second best, Lightning Bolt, but so many things have immunity to that too that there is just no hope for Wizards. I mean honestly, how am I supposed to compete with the Monk's unarmed strike damage, especially with Flurry? He's dealing 12d10 damage a turn, and my 10d6 can't even hurt them because of Fire Resistance.

Not to mention, even if I DO get one of the less useful spells like, I dunno, Polymorph, when I turn into a red dragon I still can't hurt anything with my breath weapon because they STILL HAVE FIRE RESISTANCE! I honestly don't see how WOTC ever thought that these two classes were balanced. It's such a ridiculous comparison that I don't see how it could have possibly slipped under their nose.

[Carth]

I actually found the quote that I was thinking of, from his "Beating Batman" guide

Heh, I read through that thread again for old time's sake. I wonder if Pickford is Sir Gia's new account. :smallbiggrin: It would certainly explain a lot.

[Diefje]

And they get magic fists for free! Fighters gotta ask some puny wizard to make magic on their weapon for them for eleventy billion gold, but not monks. Fighters gotta pay for it, but monks get another free ride. Then their fists become lawful (whatever the kitten that means??), so they can kick monsters right in their chaos-y bits (ye, I don't know??!?). And when they get high level they can use their magic lawful fists that are suddenly made out of supermetal and they can punch through doors, bricks, walls, faces, castles, hysterical women, bankvaults, whatever. Everything is made out of butter.

So unfair.

[SowZ]

STAHP THESE THREADS!

You'll give one of my DM's (who legitimately thinks Monks are overpowered) ammo to use against me/us!

Alright. Send your DMs best Monk, at any level he wishes, up against any NPC class warrior I can make. I will use the same array, rolled stats, or Point Buy he does. If he wants me to I'll even use the same race as him. Otherwise, I'll either stick to core MM no LA races or even just PHB races if he would prefer. We can go all core if he'd like, so it isn't superior feats that beat him. He can declare full WBL, half WBL, whatever he wants to give the Monk the advantage in his mind. And we will use no custom items, non-Core items, etc. so it isn't items that wins the day.

I think I can beat him at least 4 out of 5 times because my damage, AC, accuracy, and likely HP will all beat out his.

[CIDE]

Snip


That DM also things that any one of the ToB classes could take a team of equal leveled Cleric/Druid/Wiz 3 vs 1 and that psionics beat Arcane magic any day.

[Karnith]

That DM also things that any one of the ToB classes could take a team of equal leveled Cleric/Druid/Wiz 3 vs 1
Have you ever actually played out that scenario with him? Because it really wouldn't be hard to prove him wrong.

A monk would totally rock that scenario, but the ToB classes would have a rough time.

[TypoNinja]

It's because playgrounders have this feat, called "summon april's fools". Sadly, it works only on the first of april, so it's a trap.

I was just happy for an excuse to use the rimshot website :P

[Rejusu]

I second Arcturus, I'd find this much funnier if I hadn't seen people make these arguments in complete seriousness.

I mean uh yeah... Monk for president!