Sorceror with a truly random spell list

[Rahdjan]

A sorceror's spells are supposed to be an inate ability vs a learned skill. my question is, would you play a sorceror if the DM randomly determined what spells you got? The only exception to this I would make is that all sorcerors get Detect magic.

[ddude987]

Absolutely not. Sorc is already gimped compared to Wizard (which can learn as many spells as they want) why make them near useless by not allowing them to choose good spells.

[Rahdjan]

Because it would be a fun character concept? I've been playing Heroes Unlimited 2e and with that system, it allows for randomly determining powers. I'm not asking if it was the most optimal set up. Doesn't anyone ever play anything for fun anymore?

[ddude987]

Is it really fun to get stuck with a bunch of spells that can't do anything? If it really is random then the Sorc can get stuck with 0 damage spells or 0 crowd control etc etc and then you can't contribute at all. Plus picking spells is some of the fun, at least for me.

[Karnith]

I think that a problem with this is that there are a huge number of very narrow, very situational spells, so getting stuck with them when you have a very small number of spells known would be a pretty big problem. Imagine having a 6th-level sorcerer with spells known like this:

3- Halt Undead
2- Cat's Grace, Spectral Hand
1- Burning Hands, Expeditious Retreat, True Strike, Ventriloquism
That doesn't look like it'd be fun for anyone.

If it was semi-random (i.e. the spells are randomly assigned from a small list of actually useful spells), it might work, but I personally still wouldn't like having my choices assigned to me.

[Rahdjan]

well I guess my thought is that the fun is making it work. Finding the way to be usefull and contribute with what you have. I'm not surprised that people would be resistant to this idea and it wouldn't be for everyone, but I would be shocked if nobody else liked this.

[Humble Master]

Yah the biggest problem would be getting stuck with a "one trick pony" spell or multiple. How would you like to have Mordekianen's Magnificent Mansion as a Sorcerer? Because a lot of spells are situationaly useful it would be a pain in the butt to get those instead of more universally powerful ones.

[ddude987]

well I guess my thought is that the fun is making it work. Finding the way to be usefull and contribute with what you have. I'm not surprised that people would be resistant to this idea and it wouldn't be for everyone, but I would be shocked if nobody else liked this.

I do like the concept, however the sheer number of quite useless spells just makes it seem not to fun to play. I think it would be fun it perhaps the player gets to create a pool of different spells and then each level randomly gets level appropriate spells from the pool. This way they can still get spells they want but there would also be that random feel because they wouldn't get everything.

[Karnith]

well I guess my thought is that the fun is making it work. Finding the way to be usefull and contribute with what you have. I'm not surprised that people would be resistant to this idea and it wouldn't be for everyone, but I would be shocked if nobody else liked this.
Well, the problem is that some spell load-outs literally will not work. Look at the spell list I posted before, for example. What does that character even do? What on Earth could he possibly do to make those spells work? He gets Burning Hands, which is an extremely weak offensive spell, and when he comes up against an undead creature he gets to use Halt Undead. He has no magical defenses aside from running away, he has one terrible buff spell, and he has no ways to affect the battlefield. What does this guy do during combat? How does he help out of combat?

As I said, if he got his spells at random from a small pool of useful spells, the concept would work. But just getting spells at random from the entire sorcerer spell list would be terrible.

[Eldan]

That list up there isn't quite as bad. There's still Nystul's Magic Aura.

Maybe a compromise? Every time you level up, exchange one spell for one of your choice?

I think I'd play that, for a laugh. Maybe more a one-shot than a full campaign, though. In long campaigns, I like themed characters. Though... that and Wild Mage...

[ddude987]

That list up there isn't quite as bad. There's still Nystul's Magic Aura.

Maybe a compromise? Every time you level up, exchange one spell for one of your choice?

I think I'd play that, for a laugh. Maybe more a one-shot than a full campaign, though. In long campaigns, I like themed characters. Though... that and Wild Mage...

Oh do I love Wild Mage! There is some list online a party member in my group found with 10,000 different options for the rod of wonder... it...is...awesome!

[Grim Reader]

Could be a good rp concept. Such a character would be seeking to gain control of his powers, i.e. learn spells of his own chosing. A bloodline feat would be a good start.

Sand Shaper dip would become mandatory, though.

[Karnith]

That list up there isn't quite as bad. There's still Nystul's Magic Aura.
Well, yeah, I picked them by closing my eyes and pointing a finger at the spell list. If you're trying to come up with the worst spell list imaginable, it'd be something like this:

3-Tiny Hut
2-Continual Flame, Darkvision
1-Detect Undead, Erase, Hold Portal, Magic Aura
And at that point, congrats! You're effectively a commoner on an adventure.

[ddude987]

Well, yeah, I picked them by closing my eyes and pointing a finger at the spell list. If you're trying to come up with the worst spell list imaginable, it'd be something like this:

And at that point, congrats! You're effectively a commoner on an adventure.

You're slightly better than a commoner, you can sell your eternal flame services for a lot more money than they make!

[Shining Wrath]

What do I get in return? If you just reduce the power of a Tier II class, and let the Wizard / Cleric / Druid still have all their nice stuff, that hardly seems fair. In the "Sorcerers have style / Wizards have options" trade-off, the Wizard now wins hands down.:smallannoyed:

So, let's put on our bargaining hats here. What should a Sorcerer get in return?
1) A PF-style bloodline. Your magic is innate? Great. You are an ancestor that granted it. You get other Good Stuff as shown in the PF bloodlines.
2) Improved Eschew Materials - you never need to supply any material component that costs less than 50 GP. Because innate.
3) Improved Familiar. You get a familiar that corresponds to your bloodline and alignment. This Familiar should be similar in power to the Animal Companion of a Druid of similar level. You have a Fey bloodline? At level 5 or thereabout, you can have a unicorn familiar.

[Lycar]

Why people don't like the idea?

Because of entitlement. Because if players don't get instant access to every spell printed ever and every magic item, the DM is a mean boogerhead and doing it wrong. :smallyuk:

Seriously, the fun of the game used to lie in rolling up random stats and then see how far you could get before heroism turns from a lifestyle into a cause of death.

Remember that even your most optimized character is only as good as the DM allows him to bed. Except for the part where 3.x can be so easily broken beyond repair by unscrupulous players it isn't funny anymore.

The flip side is, if a party isn't optimized, the GM has a much better idea about where the strong and weak points of every party lie and has a much easier time designing encounters.

Yes, a totally random spell list could make a sorceror ineffective in combat. If combat is all you care about, stick with the 'approved' lists of spells for 'optimal' combat performance.

(In before Stormwind: This isn't about being able to roleplay better but about if challenging yourself with a less-then-optimal list of spells can be fun or not.)

How about to have 1 spell slot per level be determined randomly. Or maybe semi-randomly from a list of thematically (for your given character) appropriate choices?

Maybe take a look at the way Pathfinder handles the sorceror bloodlines. While you are still able to pick the bloodline with the best bonus and then add a cookie-cutter spell list to taste to it, you at least get one thematically appropriate spell every other level with it.

[ericgrau]

If you gave them extra spells known it could work. At X number of spells it would be as good as selecting spells, on average, though good or bad luck could still change things a lot.

We're talking around double or triple spells known though, given how many spells are bad first choices.

With so many in-game choices as a player I would no longer be grumpy about it in spite of the lack of pre-game choice. The surprise itself could even be interesting

[Karnith]

Stuff
Yes, because only those terrible munchkins care about being able to play the character that they want to play, and being able to contribute meaningfully to the party. Those of us who are real gamers enjoy being mechanically useless.

More seriously, I think that as long as the sorcerer has access to some baseline of competence, whether through bloodlines, spell selection that is only semi-random, getting a lot more spells known, or some other way that isn't just completely randomly assigning spells, it could work. I still wouldn't do it, but it could work if someone wanted to.

[Krobar]

As a DM and player both, I like sorcerers. I wouldn't play a sorcerer with someone else's random spell list, and I wouldn't force that on my players. I have fun playing what *I* want to play. Not what someone else wants me to play. The rest of my group is the same in that regard.

How about you let your players decide the powers and abilities of your BBEG?

edited to add: Let your players build their characters, let the chips fall where they may, and let the dice roll how they roll. That way there's never any reason to doubt you. I can almost assure you that if you design the sorcerer for a player, and he ends up ineffective a lot of the time, that player will blame YOU.

[CaladanMoonblad]

I like the concept, it seems more in line with the description of a sorcerer, and I'm not surprised at the type of reaction Rahdjan is getting so far...

There are roleplayers, and then there are wargamers. This hobby was born of wargaming, true, but the most fun I've had was playing a character concept from the ground up and letting it grow on its own; for instance, I chose to play an AD&D Bard, simply to be useless like the band playing on the Titanic as it sank; the band did not stop or help the Titanic's death throes, but they were courageous in plying their craft in the face of adversity and gave dignity to what was a horrific experience. For me, the point of RPG is to tell a great story with friends using an agreed upon set of rules.

When everything is seen through the lens of optimization, then an ideology has firmly sucked the fun out of a shared experience, just like how everything becomes a nail to a hammer, or everything is a subject to a camera; ideology objectifies everything under its lens and blinds the person to any other possibility. This was the point of Plato's allegory of the cave (http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm).

I think a good compromise between war gamers and role players, would be to add a randomly known spell to the sorcerer's already limited Known Spell list, because a wargamer is getting something for nothing, and a roleplayer is adding a mechanic to a character concept in line with that very concept.

[LTwerewolf]

I understand the story-based concept you're going after. I mean If it's just a natural talent from your bloodline, it makes sense that what spells you got would be that way as well. The problem is what many others have already said: there are far too many useless or situational spells to where it's not IF you'll get useless spells, it's how many and do you manage to get one or two actually good ones.

It's one of those things that's an interesting story concept, but mechanics fudge it all up.

[Theoboldi]

Meh. I think thematic lists, based on where your sorcerer got his or her powers from would be much better, if you're going for fluff. Half of the fun when building a sorcerer, for me, lies in trying to find and choose spells for the theme I am going for. With a completly randomised list, you'll probably end with an incoherent mess that not only is ineffective, but also very bland.

[Shining Wrath]

Meh. I think thematic lists, based on where your sorcerer got his or her powers from would be much better, if you're going for fluff. Half of the fun when building a sorcerer, for me, lies in trying to find and choose spells for the theme I am going for. With a completly randomised list, you'll probably end with an incoherent mess that not only is ineffective, but also very bland.

^THIS. Random by definition cannot follow a theme. You won't have a character, you'll have a a painting done by dripping randomly chosen colors onto the same spot - sooner or later you will have a brown dot.

[Grim Reader]

Don't forget that there are other sources of spells known for a Sorcerer than leveling up -feats, PrCs and magic items. A Sorcerer with only the Desert Insight list would be fully playable in most groups.

It'd represent a chaacter struggeling to control his powers, some spells he has chosen by great effort, others come from within him.

The Sorcerer takes another big hit compared to the wizard though.

[molten_dragon]

A sorceror's spells are supposed to be an inate ability vs a learned skill. my question is, would you play a sorceror if the DM randomly determined what spells you got? The only exception to this I would make is that all sorcerors get Detect magic.

Yeah, I'd be willing to give it a try as long as the DM agreed to let me play something else if the character ended up coming out completely ineffective. It could be fun trying to figure out interesting uses for a lot of the spells that don't get taken frequently.

[Juntao112]

Why people don't like the idea?

Because of entitlement. Because if players don't get instant access to every spell printed ever and every magic item, the DM is a mean boogerhead and doing it wrong. :smallyuk:

Seriously, the fun of the game used to lie in rolling up random stats and then see how far you could get before heroism turns from a lifestyle into a cause of death.

Not only do I agree, I say it should be taken further.

Fighters should have their bonus feats randomly assigned.

[ericgrau]

I thought I'd roll up a random sorcerer 6 with double and triple spells known:
0: tons (14-21 cantrips)
1: detect secret doors, enlarge person, magic aura, endure elements, mount, chill touch, jump, expeditious retreat, [mage armor, shield, cause fear, animate rope]
2: mirror image, locate object, invisibility, acid arrow, [fox's cunning, resist energy]
3: arcane sight, rage, [fireball]

The spells for triple spells known are added in brackets.

Rolling a few more 3rds I noticed that he can at least get passable high level spells after not too many rolls. I also see that this sorcerer becomes an extreme utility monkey for the lower level spells, enough to actually be useful and be a sort of rogue. So I think double spells known is better to give up a little power but get a ton of utility. Triple gives plenty of power and has utility on top of that, which is too much IMO. As for the theme of such a sorcerer, the theme is chaos.

Some kind of spell cards or preprinted spell descriptions or spell summaries would be extremely helpful for such a mage, or he'll be constantly book flipping.

[Karnith]

Not only do I agree, I say it should be taken further.

Fighters should have their bonus feats randomly assigned.
Rogues should have their skill points randomly assigned, as well. It's not like they would get to choose what they get trained in.

[Callin]

Let them choose a bloodline that gives them a set list of spells and then roll for the rest. I would play that. At the levels the Sorc would be able to trade out a spell they can ask for a reroll, maybe from a specific school if... maybe.

I would play the heck outta that.

[Juntao112]

Rogues should have their skill points randomly assigned, as well. It's not like they would get to choose what they get trained in.

That's right - a rogue's skills are based off of innate talent, not deliberate effort, after all.

[Ravenica]

I could see it being fun with pathfinders sorceror if there were a few sanity checks involved;
- The spell list selects from thematically appropriate spells for your bloodline.
- The player may still use the swap out option to pick spells they want with the usual frequency, or possibly more frequency.
- The player can veto any effectively useless spell that gets rolled

[turbo164]

Idea:

Alternate Class Feature - Chaos Sorceror

Your Spells Known for each level is reduced by 1.
Each time you spend 8 hours rest recovering spells, your Spells Known for that day include 2 extra spells from each level you can cast, chosen at random.

A little time consuming to pull out that many dice each morning, but potentially gives a fun mix of the reliable stuff you chose and then the random spells occasionally being worthwhile. "Wow, I actually cast Locate Object to find that stolen key instead of Invisibility/Scorching Ray/Hideous Laughter! Will be kinda sad when I lose it (and Magic Mouth) tomorrow! *gains Spider Climb and Whispering Wind* Ooh, this could be interesting."

It's like looting unusual scrolls from a treasure hoard, makes you look at different angles to solve a problem :)

[Shining Wrath]

Idea:

Alternate Class Feature - Chaos Sorceror

Your Spells Known for each level is reduced by 1.
Each time you spend 8 hours rest recovering spells, your Spells Known for that day include 2 extra spells from each level you can cast, chosen at random.

A little time consuming to pull out that many dice each morning, but potentially gives a fun mix of the reliable stuff you chose and then the random spells occasionally being worthwhile. "Wow, I actually cast Locate Object to find that stolen key instead of Invisibility/Scorching Ray/Hideous Laughter! Will be kinda sad when I lose it (and Magic Mouth) tomorrow! *gains Spider Climb and Whispering Wind* Ooh, this could be interesting."

It's like looting unusual scrolls from a treasure hoard, makes you look at different angles to solve a problem :)

I like how you think. It's almost like a Crusader getting random maneuvers.

[Rahdjan]

As a DM and player both, I like sorcerers. I wouldn't play a sorcerer with someone else's random spell list, and I wouldn't force that on my players. I have fun playing what *I* want to play. Not what someone else wants me to play. The rest of my group is the same in that regard.

How about you let your players decide the powers and abilities of your BBEG?

edited to add: Let your players build their characters, let the chips fall where they may, and let the dice roll how they roll. That way there's never any reason to doubt you. I can almost assure you that if you design the sorcerer for a player, and he ends up ineffective a lot of the time, that player will blame YOU.

First, this is not something I want to force on a player, it's something I desire to try. Also, in the Heros game I'm playing, we all rolled up a hero and a villian. I'm not looking forward to fighting the guy I came up with.

[maysarahs]

I have an idea for the OP that might help capture the flavor while not utterly removing an important part of character building.

How about whenever a sorcerer gains a spell known, for that slot, the player chooses 3-5 spells (not necessarily, but preferably with the same kind of utility). Any time he chooses to cast a specific bundle of spells, he rolls to see which one he actually casts. That way the player still uses his resources the way he wants to (this "spell known" will come out as a damage spell no matter what, this one a buff, etc) and the result is still randomized (say, lightning bolt comes out instead of a fireball). At every level, the player can remove 3+CHA mod (just pulling a number out of my butt) spells from this pool of spells to represent taking control over the chaotic nature of his powers. This can be adjusted to represent the amount of randomness they are okay with at high levels.

This isn't trying to balance anything, just offer a (maybe?) workable mechanical perspective on the flavor the OP seems to want

[Vizzerdrix]

Only if they got something else in return, and then it'd have to be something big, like the chance for higher level spells in lower slots big. Even then probably not.

[ericgrau]

Only if they got something else in return, and then it'd have to be something big, like the chance for higher level spells in lower slots big. Even then probably not.

Hmm, random spell list each day, but +2 caster level for spells known?

Sorcerer 6 (rolls level 4 spells): lesser globe of invulnerability (could let you center fireballs or etc on yourself), shout (5d6 sonic is nice), fire trap (well that one's a pain), mass reduce person (allied ranged + enemy melee in one shot I suppose could work), black tentacles (sweet)

It seems like trouble at low levels when you could just plain suck for the day. But at higher levels some of those are tolerable and even when they're not maybe you got lucky on a 3rd level spell.

[Calimehter]

I actually ran something like this years ago. It was back in 2nd ed., so wasn't sorcerer per se, but the limited spell selection and slots in that particular campaign did give it a similar look and feel. So, from practical experience, I can say that there are a couple of things needed:

1. A "weighted" random selection that gives the most general-use spells the highest percentage of being obtained. Having one or two specific utility spells is okay, but a whole list of them is not very much fun. We used the "common-special-rare" chart from the 2nd ed. FR book, which actually gave us very usable lists for PCs and for NPCs (yes, I did roll for them :) )

2. An option to choose a few spells here and there. In my campaign there was no magic mart, but people were still able to acquire a few spells of their own choosing here and there to supplement the random ones that made up 50-75% of their lists. For sorcerers, I think being able to pick one spell per level (or 1/4 of the spells per level or something) or even spend some feats to get extra spells (which you can do now, but maybe bumping up the options a bit) would be sufficient *if* #1 above is also followed.

So . . . pretty much what most folks have already recommended. :smalltongue:

[Qc Storm]

When you suggested this idea, I was expecting a random loadout every day. I am surprised it isn't.

Have the sorcerer know no spells at all. Every day, his spells are completely randomized. Some days you will be useful, some days useless. Overall weaker than a normal spellcaster, but still fun.

In exchange you could get more "spells known" to make up for the sheer randomness.

[Yahya]

I think it's a great idea, and would be fine if the particular game is more about roleplaying than numbers. If numbers matter though, perhaps the sorcerer could be compensated with some fighter bonus feats, skill points, or something else?

One thing that Pathfinder has that I think is really cool is Primal Magic, which sounds a bit like what you're talking about. Perhaps on rolls of #-20 or odd numbers there's a Primal Magic effect? I might tuck that idea away later myself, actually.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Not only do I agree, I say it should be taken further.

Fighters should have their bonus feats randomly assigned.

While I realize this point is meant to be facetious, the logic doesn't compute (or for rogues). Random spells and Random Skills are comparing apples to oranges to boot.

People are not born to special forces or born to be the next James Bond. These vocations require extensive training. In D&D, People are born to be sorcerers right in the description of the class. Sorcerers were introduced as a class in 3rd edition, but it was a common homebrew variant of wizard prior to 3rd as a spontaneous caster (making sure Bard wasn't the only one, and sorcerer provided some symmetry to the spell preparation classes).

[Juntao112]

I have an idea for the OP that might help capture the flavor while not utterly removing an important part of character building.

How about whenever a sorcerer gains a spell known, for that slot, the player chooses 3-5 spells (not necessarily, but preferably with the same kind of utility). Any time he chooses to cast a specific bundle of spells, he rolls to see which one he actually casts. That way the player still uses his resources the way he wants to (this "spell known" will come out as a damage spell no matter what, this one a buff, etc) and the result is still randomized (say, lightning bolt comes out instead of a fireball). At every level, the player can remove 3+CHA mod (just pulling a number out of my butt) spells from this pool of spells to represent taking control over the chaotic nature of his powers. This can be adjusted to represent the amount of randomness they are okay with at high levels.

This isn't trying to balance anything, just offer a (maybe?) workable mechanical perspective on the flavor the OP seems to want

This is terrible. A fireball cast from behind the party tank down the hall at a group of skeletons will not result in friendly fire, but a lightning bolt certainly will.


While I realize this point is meant to be facetious, the logic doesn't compute (or for rogues). Random spells and Random Skills are comparing apples to oranges to boot.
What did you expect on April 1st?


People are not born to special forces or born to be the next James Bond. These vocations require extensive training. In D&D, People are born to be sorcerers right in the description of the class. Sorcerers were introduced as a class in 3rd edition, but it was a common homebrew variant of wizard prior to 3rd as a spontaneous caster (making sure Bard wasn't the only one, and sorcerer provided some symmetry to the spell preparation classes).
Being Mr. Universe requires extensive training, but it also requires you to win the genetic lottery. Not everyone can be Arnold Schwarzenegger through sheer effort.

Being successful at skill or endeavor requires training, but it also requires a certain amount of natural talent, and if you want to be the absolute best at something, rather than just being competent, you need favorable genetics. You or I could train all our lives and not be as good a swimmer as Michael Phelps, or as good a runner as Dean Karnazes (http://www.cracked.com/article_19661_6-real-people-with-mind-blowing-mutant-superpowers.html).

The talent for sourcery is inborn, but it requires training (ie, XP) in order to bring out. A sourcerer must expend effort into mastering his inherent magical talent; spells are not handed to him on a silver platter. Thus, like the Rogue's skills or the Fighter's bonus feats, they are learned as the result of deliberate effort.

[XionUnborn01]

I like the idea, but I can understand why people don't like the thought of being useless, no one wants to have nothing to contribute.

What if you increase all the spells known by 2, and every level the player makes a list of 4-6 spells within a theme for his character and these spells are randomly determined but you also have 1 spell every level that the sorcerer chooses that isn't random. or instead of 4-6 spells, two sets of 2-3, that way they can maybe have a random buff added and a random crowd control.

couple this with the normal way of trading out spells, but make it so you can change one of the randomly determined spells AND the one you chose with another spell of your choice.

You get a random element to the character, get to choose a general theme, and as you grow in power you gain more control of your abilities.

[Clericzilla]

I rolled for my spells as a sorcerer once (core spells)... I was still more powerful than the rest of the group (rest was T3 classes).

Actually I think I will make up a back up character this way right now to see what I get.

[Slipperychicken]

would you play a sorceror if the DM randomly determined what spells you got?

Nope. Same reason I don't play a Truenamer: The character would suck and be useless.

[Humble Master]

Idea:

Alternate Class Feature - Chaos Sorceror

Your Spells Known for each level is reduced by 1.
Each time you spend 8 hours rest recovering spells, your Spells Known for that day include 2 extra spells from each level you can cast, chosen at random.

A little time consuming to pull out that many dice each morning, but potentially gives a fun mix of the reliable stuff you chose and then the random spells occasionally being worthwhile. "Wow, I actually cast Locate Object to find that stolen key instead of Invisibility/Scorching Ray/Hideous Laughter! Will be kinda sad when I lose it (and Magic Mouth) tomorrow! *gains Spider Climb and Whispering Wind* Ooh, this could be interesting."

It's like looting unusual scrolls from a treasure hoard, makes you look at different angles to solve a problem :)

I really, really like this idea. It gives you the chance to try out spells you normally wouldn't pick because you're a Sorcerer and you need to choose very universal spells. I might even show it to my the Sorcerer in my game and see if they are interested in it.

[Annos]

D&D Is not about optimization and killing monsters. It's about "ROLEPLAYING".
"D&D a Roleplaying Game" not "D&D a Optimization Game about doing Math and sticking it to RAW"

[Clericzilla]

So I randomly determined a level 10 Sorcerer spell known list.

What I did was roll a die to see what school of magic the spell would be in, for each spell known I allowed it to be a different school (threw the sorcerer a bone on that one I guess). Thus I have 3 level 3 spells and therefore 3 schools of magic.

Then I rolled a die to see which spell from the list the sorcerer would know.

It didn't turn out to bad actually.


Level 1
Hold Portal
Mage Armor
Charm Person
Feather Fall
Obscuring Mist

Level 2
Eagle's Splendor
Blindness/Deafness
Flaming Sphere
Locate Object

Level 3
Sepia Snake Symbol
Tiny Hut
Vampiric Touch

Level 4
Gease, Lesser
Stone Shape

Level 5
Nightmare

So although not the most optimal choices, this sorcerer didn't turn out half bad if used the right way.

Would I retrain one spell to get magic missile? Yup, but I'm still not that bad.

[molten_dragon]

D&D Is not about optimization and killing monsters. It's about "ROLEPLAYING".
"D&D a Roleplaying Game" not "D&D a Optimization Game about doing Math and sticking it to RAW"

Actually, a lot of D&D IS very much about killing monsters. And while it's also about roleplaying, some roles are more fun to play than others. And "spellcaster who is pretty bad at casting spells" isn't necessarily a role that everyone would want to play, and it's very easily a role you could get stuck with if you're rolling spells randomly.

[ericgrau]

So I randomly determined a level 10 Sorcerer spell known list

...

So although not the most optimal choices, this sorcerer didn't turn out half bad if used the right way.

Would I retrain one spell to get magic missile? Yup, but I'm still not that bad.
No, that's actually pretty horrible at level 10 regardless of how you salvage it. You can't cast anything above 3rd level in combat, and the 3rd level ones are pretty mediocre.

[maysarahs]

This is terrible. A fireball cast from behind the party tank down the hall at a group of skeletons will not result in friendly fire, but a lightning bolt certainly will.

Ah good point, my mistake, that one case doesn't really follow the spirit of my suggestion, so I guess it was a bad example on my part.

I don't think this random spell list is a particularly good idea and this was just a quick attempt at getting "randomness" while giving the players mostly what they want in the sense that they can dicate their own "failure cases"

[Slipperychicken]

D&D Is not about optimization and killing monsters. It's about "ROLEPLAYING".
"D&D a Roleplaying Game" not "D&D a Optimization Game about doing Math and sticking it to RAW"

http://i.imgflip.com/xun6.jpg

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

You're slightly better than a commoner, you can sell your eternal flame services for a lot more money than they make!

Well, actually, that commoner can make quite a fortune turning ladders into poles.

[Amnestic]

I'd consider it if it randomised daily rather than once and was then set in stone, but even then...


A sorceror's spells are supposed to be an inate ability vs a learned skill. my question is, would you play a sorceror if the DM randomly determined what spells you got? The only exception to this I would make is that all sorcerors get Detect magic.

Innate doesn't mean "not learned at all". The very first sentence of the Sorcerer description in the PHB is:


Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice.

Even if the initial powers are not learned from spellbooks like that of Wizards, to say they cannot direct their powers or their areas of learning is inaccurate. At most from that I could justify a randomised set of Cantrips, but for every spell level after that, their practise would kick in and they could direct their energies how they will.

Also, if you were to follow your logic, would you also be randomising the spell list of every non-wizard/non-deity-granted spellcasting monster, such as Dragons?

Though I will note that the Chaos Sorcerer ACF further up the page is pretty cool.

[JaronK]

The way I'd do this would be to effectively just add this Sorcerer casting on top of a normal build. Thus I could be a Monk with Sorcerous power who has a bunch of random spells. The character is still useful and able to do things, but has this random fun stuff added in.

JaronK

[Suddo]

To try and comprimize. Either:

A) Each known slot has a selection of spells (player choice probably 3-6) and each morning during spell prep the player rolls to determine what they know. Spells can not be repeated. This would allow you to garuntee some blast spells some battlefield control and such. Even at 3 per known slot it might be interesting.

B) Upon gaining a spell known you choose 3-6 spells and randomly learn one. To make it more interesting by picking one you remove it from being able to be learned again.

C) Upon gaining a spell known you randomly get one, you may re-roll this but you have to keep the second one. You might be able to do this once more but you'd have to play with it.

Oh and I'd increase spells known and/or add the pathfinder chassis.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I would have the player choose between two and three times as many spells as they can learn from their spell list, to represent attempting to learn those spells, and then their character gets between 1/3 and 1/2 of those. That way, they still choose their spells known, but it has an element of randomness. The player should also be able to spend time training in one spell to include it multiple times if they really want it.

I also really like the "two random spells each day" idea. It seems...interesting.

[Eman Resu]

Yes, randomly selecting spells can and is fun, usually. This assures that no 2 Sorcerers will be the same, as well it should be. Not every Sorcerer should have spells ABC and if left to select they all will. It would be unfair for others in campaign to not adhere to same restriction so all bbeg do same. You are allowed to reroll per spell selection = to your cha mod

The Sorcerer is an untrained caster so how would they know that a eye of this or blood of that casts spell X when your fingers are held a certain way and you just so happen to recite the need somatic s. C"MON really? That makes no sense to our groups, so as a result Sorcerers do not use material components, and they have either silent spell at no cost to spell level or still spell at no cost bu they cant have both chose 1 at 1st level.

Sorcerers also have to be trained to make magicals and most Wizards find teaching a cha caster annoying to say the least..we make this hard for Sorcerers to learn...But again for this bad we have yet another good the Sorcerer is allowed to pick spells from all Arcane spell list. Maybe pick is a bad choice of words, the Sorc is allowed to roll randomly on a specific list of Arcane spells 1 time per level. example -Maybe he will chose to roll on the wu jen list?

And with transparency of psionic Arcane we have had a player rolling on the Psion power list for a power to spell conversion.

again this really makes a unique sorcerer, with 1 in a million chance of being even half the same spells as any other sorcerer and the no material components, players like this.

[Juntao112]

D&D Is not about optimization and killing monsters. It's about "ROLEPLAYING".
"D&D a Roleplaying Game" not "D&D a Optimization Game about doing Math and sticking it to RAW"

You are absolutely correct. So, does randomly determining a sorcerer's spell list allow the player of the sorcerer to roleplay the concept he wants?

For some people, yes! The OP has said so. For others, no. They have a particular style of sorcerer in mind - an illusionist, for example - and they would prefer to play it rather than a random bag of spells, none of which may be illusions.

[Krobar]

D&D Is not about optimization and killing monsters. It's about "ROLEPLAYING".
"D&D a Roleplaying Game" not "D&D a Optimization Game about doing Math and sticking it to RAW"

Well, you go talk to the angry Balor, and see where that gets you. We'll stand over here and watch.

[TuggyNE]

Well, you go talk to the angry Balor, and see where that gets you. We'll stand over here and watch.

Waaaay over here.

[Karnith]

Waaaay over here.
Don't worry, though, we'll have a trusty scroll of Gate on-hand in case (when) things turn ugly.

[Juntao112]

Oh ye of little faith. How doth ye know he hast not optimized diplomacy?

[Krobar]

Oh ye of little faith. How doth ye know he hast not optimized diplomacy?

That's why I said *ANGRY* Balor. You can max your diplomacy to the stars, but if you don't have time to talk and negotiate, if the balor attacks on sight, it won't do you much good. It usually takes a full minute to influence someone's attitude. At the bare minimum a full round with a penalty.

Good luck.

[Slipperychicken]

That's why I said *ANGRY* Balor. You can max your diplomacy to the stars, but if you don't have time to talk and negotiate, if the balor attacks on sight, it won't do you much good. It usually takes a full minute to influence someone's attitude. At the bare minimum a full round with a penalty.

Good luck.

Just hope you win initiative and a Diplomancer :smallbiggrin:

Of course, no true roleplayer would ever commit such... such roll-play munchinkry as a Diplomacy build!

[TuggyNE]

Just hope you win initiative and a Diplomancer :smallbiggrin:

Hmmmmmmmm… I just had an evil idea: cast time stop, then Diplomacy. It's not a spell or attack, after all!

[Slipperychicken]

Hmmmmmmmm… I just had an evil idea: cast time stop, then Diplomacy. It's not a spell or attack, after all!

Well... you're undetectable in Time Stop, but at the same time Diplomacy doesn't require that your target be able to see you, hear you, or even be aware of your presence. It means you're so good at rhetoric that you managed to convince an angry demon-general who never perceived your argument.


I like it :smallbiggrin:

[Spuddles]

Idea:

Alternate Class Feature - Chaos Sorceror

Your Spells Known for each level is reduced by 1.
Each time you spend 8 hours rest recovering spells, your Spells Known for that day include 2 extra spells from each level you can cast, chosen at random.

A little time consuming to pull out that many dice each morning, but potentially gives a fun mix of the reliable stuff you chose and then the random spells occasionally being worthwhile. "Wow, I actually cast Locate Object to find that stolen key instead of Invisibility/Scorching Ray/Hideous Laughter! Will be kinda sad when I lose it (and Magic Mouth) tomorrow! *gains Spider Climb and Whispering Wind* Ooh, this could be interesting."

It's like looting unusual scrolls from a treasure hoard, makes you look at different angles to solve a problem :)

I like it. I was thinking something similar, where you give up some number of spells known when you are learning new spells and in return gain double that many known in random spells.


While I realize this point is meant to be facetious, the logic doesn't compute (or for rogues). Random spells and Random Skills are comparing apples to oranges to boot.

People are not born to special forces or born to be the next James Bond. These vocations require extensive training. In D&D, People are born to be sorcerers right in the description of the class. Sorcerers were introduced as a class in 3rd edition, but it was a common homebrew variant of wizard prior to 3rd as a spontaneous caster (making sure Bard wasn't the only one, and sorcerer provided some symmetry to the spell preparation classes).

Pfff, Beowulf was born to slay Grendel; Hurin was born to slay Glaurung; Thranduil was born king of the wood elves; Achilles was born the greatest warrior ever; Odysseus was born a tactician.

You can arbitrarily state your fluff any way you like.


The way I'd do this would be to effectively just add this Sorcerer casting on top of a normal build. Thus I could be a Monk with Sorcerous power who has a bunch of random spells. The character is still useful and able to do things, but has this random fun stuff added in.

JaronK

That's how old school psionics worked. Roll percentile, if you roll high, you got to gestalt uber magic onto your fighter.

[TexAvery]

That's right - a rogue's skills are based off of innate talent, not deliberate effort, after all.

But think of all the RP flavor! It would be a challenge to figure out solutions to problems instead of just picking the optimal skills for your campaign.

[Karnith]

But think of all the RP flavor! It would be a challenge to figure out solutions to problems instead of just picking the optimal skills for your campaign.
Well, it certainly would be a challenge to try to be effective when you've got a bunch of ranks in skills like Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Forgery, Perform, Profession, Swim, and Use Rope.

[Spuddles]

Well, it certainly would be a challenge to try to be effective when you've got a bunch of ranks in skills like Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Forgery, Perform, Profession, Swim, and Use Rope.

No ranks in appraise means you're losing out on some of the value of 1/3rd of your loot, craft can be used to triple the amount of mundane gear you have (like mithril full plate, alchemist fire, etc), NO ONE trains in forgery- it's like the disjunction of skills, perform is useless unless you've got bard levels, profession is only good if you end up in hell, swim will save you from death, and use rope is great for low level navigation of dungeons and tying up prisoners. Decipher Script is useful if you're in a published module.

It's not ALL bad.

[JoshuaZ]

Ravenica's suggestion of doing this with the Pathfinder sorcerer might work not that badly. An alternate would be to use automatically get your blood line spells and get the others randomly selected. Another option would be to randomize some of your spells and not randomize others (which could be fluffed as slowly learning to at least channel some of your innate power in ways you want).

This is the sort of thing where how heavily optimized your group is could drastically impact how good or bad this is as an idea.

[Xallace]

I'd play it, sounds like a jam. Do we get to use Spell Compendium for added hilarity?

If you want useless then just say the sorcerer doesn't get spells known, spending a spell slot causes a Rod of Wonder / Greater Rod of Wonder effect.

Actually, I'd play that too.

A few class features and that could make for a pretty cool Wild Mage base class. Might start working on that tonight.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Pfff, Beowulf was born to slay Grendel; Hurin was born to slay Glaurung; Thranduil was born king of the wood elves; Achilles was born the greatest warrior ever; Odysseus was born a tactician.

You can arbitrarily state your fluff any way you like.



Uh, Negatory.

"born to accomplish some goal" is simply a narrator's use of fate, or deus ex machina; such that Oedipus is destined/cursed to slay his father and marry his mother. He did not choose such a course, and it is his incessant curiosity that reveals to him his crimes years after the fact.

How you slay such a monster, or become a master soldier, requires training. This is understood as the difference between a trained knight vs. a peasant levy. One will kill the other 99.99% of the time, not because of genetics, but because of training (not the same as which caste you are born into).


Juntao112
Being Mr. Universe requires extensive training, but it also requires you to win the genetic lottery. Not everyone can be Arnold Schwarzenegger through sheer effort.

Being successful at skill or endeavor requires training, but it also requires a certain amount of natural talent, and if you want to be the absolute best at something, rather than just being competent, you need favorable genetics.

Did you ever actually watch "Pumping Iron" ? Or know about Arnold's childhood? He was sickly, and pathetic, and not a good specimen; he was treated terribly by his father (who suspected Arnold was not his genetic son) and Arnold's older brother was favored. Arnold got to where he was through hard work (and steroids, because Austria and America have different laws regarding their use when he decided to become a body builder at age 14-15). Speaking as a former body builder, I saw my bench press start at 100 lbs and progress to 350 lbs after 10 years, and my squat press start at 150 lbs and progress to 550 lbs. I started lifting at age 16, and stopped at age 26 (all without steroids) when I started having back and time issues (higher education). There are genetic caps to how big we can actually get, but it still requires daily work to reach a genetic potential. In d20, this is the Attribute Point Pool.

No one is a born warrior; all warriors must train extensively to acquire the skills they use; this is why we train soldiers instead of breed them in the United States- it is a volunteer military since a certain police action in the 1960s-1970s. The descriptive text for sorcerer says practice, but it emphasizes heritage as the source of raw magical power. This is exemplified on page 52 of PHB where it says "Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through careful training and study."

So yes, a sorcerer practices every day, but the power is innate. The fact sorcerers cannot specialize is another mechanic pointing to the fluff.

Here's a key piece of text in the Background on the next page; "Sorcerers develop rudimentary powers at puberty. Their first spells are incomplete, spontaneous, uncontrolled, and sometimes dangerous.... Eventually, the young sorcerer understands the power that he has been wielding unintentionally. From that point on, he can begin practicing and improving his powers."

Who can say, but perhaps a random spells known list was used at some point in the class's development? It seems plausible for me.

I told my wife about this thread, and she was inspired to try a random spell list for a 1st level character. The only offensive spell she got was Color Spray, so she went with a Face and plans to merge with Rogue to create a spy character. She is super stoked to try out her new character in our next campaign.

[Spuddles]

Broski, go back and read the very first line of the sorcerer entry in the PHB. It could pretty much describe any non-NPC class, any hero in history, any character that requires mechanical support to its narrative function:
"Sorcerers create magic the
way a poet creates poems, with
inborn talent honed by
practice."

[Amnestic]

So yes, a sorcerer practices every day, but the power is innate. The fact sorcerers cannot specialize is another mechanic pointing to the fluff.

They can't specialise like a Wizard can, but that doesn't mean they can't PrC into certain key specialised areas.

[Juntao112]

Did you ever actually watch "Pumping Iron" ? Or know about Arnold's childhood? He was sickly, and pathetic, and not a good specimen;
Einstein was considered mentally retarded as a child, and a poor student in high school. Look where he ended up.


he was treated terribly by his father (who suspected Arnold was not his genetic son) and Arnold's older brother was favored.
Irrelevant.


Arnold got to where he was through hard work (and steroids, because Austria and America have different laws regarding their use when he decided to become a body builder at age 14-15).
Fair point.


Speaking as a former body builder, I saw my bench press start at 100 lbs and progress to 350 lbs after 10 years, and my squat press start at 150 lbs and progress to 550 lbs. I started lifting at age 16, and stopped at age 26 (all without steroids) when I started having back and time issues (higher education). There are genetic caps to how big we can actually get, but it still requires daily work to reach a genetic potential. In d20, this is the Attribute Point Pool.
What have you to say on the subject of Phelps and that fellow with the mutation that lets him run indefinitely?


No one is a born warrior; all warriors must train extensively to acquire the skills they use; this is why we train soldiers instead of breed them in the United States- it is a volunteer military since a certain police action in the 1960s-1970s. The descriptive text for sorcerer says practice, but it emphasizes heritage as the source of raw magical power. This is exemplified on page 52 of PHB where it says "Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through careful training and study."

So yes, a sorcerer practices every day, but the power is innate. The fact sorcerers cannot specialize is another mechanic pointing to the fluff.[/QUOTE]
What stops me from saying that a fighter has martial prowess as the result of natural talent rather than through careful training and study (which is the case for street thugs who did not go to fighter college), so his bonus feats should be randomly assigned?

Actually, the fighter class description notes that some fighters are "self-taught - unpolished, but well tested."


Here's a key piece of text in the Background on the next page; "Sorcerers develop rudimentary powers at puberty. Their first spells are incomplete, spontaneous, uncontrolled, and sometimes dangerous.... Eventually, the young sorcerer understands the power that he has been wielding unintentionally. From that point on, he can begin practicing and improving his powers."

Who can say, but perhaps a random spells known list was used at some point in the class's development? It seems plausible for me.
Only because you see that which you wish to see.


I told my wife about this thread, and she was inspired to try a random spell list for a 1st level character. The only offensive spell she got was Color Spray, so she went with a Face and plans to merge with Rogue to create a spy character. She is super stoked to try out her new character in our next campaign.
Great for her! What does that prove? That some people like to play randomly generated characters, and some don't?

[georgie_leech]

Einstein was considered mentally retarded as a child, and a poor student in high school. Look where he ended up.

I agree withmost of what you say, but there's little if any evidence for that and there's actually evidence of the opposite. (http://www.albert-einstein.org/article_handicap.html)

[Karnith]

I told my wife about this thread, and she was inspired to try a random spell list for a 1st level character. The only offensive spell she got was Color Spray, so she went with a Face and plans to merge with Rogue to create a spy character. She is super stoked to try out her new character in our next campaign.
Boy, it sure was a good thing for her that she just happened to get one of the strongest first-level spells in the game. Suppose that she had rolled spells known like Endure Elements and Floating Disk? Or Feather Fall and Hold Portal? Or Comprehend Languages and Magic Aura? Or Detect Undead and Erase? How excited would she be to play one of those sorcerers? How much fun would she have when none of her spells do anything useful?

[CaladanMoonblad]

Einstein was considered mentally retarded as a child, and a poor student in high school. Look where he ended up.

What have you to say on the subject of Phelps and that fellow with the mutation that lets him run indefinitely?

These are phenoms; prodigies exist in the population for nearly every endeavor (including video games). Is it your contention that Fighters are prodigies compared to Warriors, that Fighters are so elite, so uber, so epic, that they are 4 or 5 standard deviations from a baseline trained trooper? This seems strange, since this forum regularly trashes the Fighter class, and would go against the custom of the Playground. My reading of Fighter lists that some are self taught, but most are trained in an army; whereas the Sorcerer says that very rarely are sorcerers taught by a mentor, so... the opposite of what you seem to be asserting.

Regarding Einstein- this is more of an indication of how a school (Prussian model) fails to accommodate genius. Noam Chomsky attended a Dewey-ite school so he was unaware of his own intelligence until he got to college and did well on a standardized test. In Stephen Hawking's "Black Holes and Baby Universes" he credits his own disease with the impetus to really pursue mathematics; he still had to work at it. Mathematics is a language, and some of us take to it like a fish to water, and others of us struggle to deal with the strange symbols and mechanics. Being naturally good at something... is usually the purpose of attribute bonuses. To master something, you still need to work at it, but people do not choose what they are a prodigy in.

Phelps trained since he was 7 years old. That's about par for Olympians, who are all very talented and had the financial background to go for their dreams.

The runner guy is interesting, but would indicate what exactly? Did he choose to have the genetic anomaly? I'm unsure how you want to use him as someone who became really good at something (like a wizard, who has choice) but was born to a special talent (sorcerer, who could be houseruled to have no choice to fit the descriptive text better, the premise of this thread).



What stops me from saying that a fighter has martial prowess as the result of natural talent rather than through careful training and study (which is the case for street thugs who did not go to fighter college), so his bonus feats should be randomly assigned?

It's a free country, and a heavily regulated forum, I am unaware of any other reason you cannot say anything you please; however, it's still an apples to oranges comparison (something I pointed out earlier, but mistakenly typed 'skill points' instead of 'feats'). One of the tenets of logic is that we should not compare unlike things (at least without heavy statistical weightings, and even, then the comparison is suspect). So Spells Known is not the same as Bonus Fighter Feats. If you are arguing that all feats should be randomized... only then can the comparison be logically made.



Actually, the fighter class description notes that some fighters are "self-taught - unpolished, but well tested."

The examples of fighters in the PHB include; questing knight, conquering overlord, king's champion, elite foot soldier, hardened mercenary, bandit king. Hm... seems like the examples are going from rare occurances to entire units of individuals who have elite training. Even the background states "Most have training in a noble's army or at least in the local militia." Which precedes your quotation. What military academy do you know in our history that did not use regimentation, order, or repetitive muscle memory and was considered successful in warfare? The quote you use seems to exist simply so players aren't typecast in their backgrounds, or prohibit others from multiclassing into Fighter (for a dip of 1 or 2 levels lets say).

So... not really like sorcerers. Yet another apples to oranges comparison other than "this is a core PC class."




Only because you see that which you wish to see.



Wow, you are incredibly inflammatory. I offer evidence from the primary text of why I hold my position, and instead of answering the evidence, you accuse me of being ideologically biased? (this is a veiled ad hominem, ignoring an argument and going after character) I use induction, and you accuse me of deduction? You might want to invest some time in learning about textual analysis, it's been around since the 12th century and practiced by many people to make their arguments about something like Moby ****, or Huck Finn, or say, RPGs.



Great for her! What does that prove? That some people like to play randomly generated characters, and some don't?

I was relating how positive one of my best players was to the idea; the randomness made her want to play a sorcerer... because quote "it sounds like a challenge!" She then went about and started brainstorming all the ways to use "Open/Close" and "Magic Aura" (those were stumpers for us both) and all the other random spells from the list. There's no reason to get snippy.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Boy, it sure was a good thing for her that she just happened to get one of the strongest first-level spells in the game. Suppose that she had rolled spells known like Endure Elements and Floating Disk? Or Feather Fall and Hold Portal? Or Comprehend Languages and Magic Aura? Or Detect Undead and Erase? How excited would she be to play one of those sorcerers? How much fun would she have when none of her spells do anything useful?

She did get Magic Aura. She was hoping for Prestidigitation but missed it by 1. Considering many of our previous campaigns include extreme environments, Endure Elements can be a life saver (we take the Survival skill seriously, considering how many episodes of Survivorman and Man, Woman, Wild we have watched on Netflix). My players also value Comprehend Languages as as spell, because they are just as willing to negotiate with monstrous humanoids as simply slaughter them (our campaign world doesn't typecast goblins or orcs as mindless idiots).

Detect Undead? So useful for the current campaign, because they just stumbled upon a Necropolis of Necropolitans using Draugr as pitbulls.

Karnith, you are really negative to this concept. My wife was stoked because it was a challenge, and she can have fun playing a variety of character types (she's played a Handmaiden of Rohan in Merps, a scoundrel in Star Wars, a dwarf fighter in DnD as well as a Bard... she's very open minded, which is a quality I appreciate in people).

[CaladanMoonblad]

They can't specialise like a Wizard can, but that doesn't mean they can't PrC into certain key specialised areas.

I never said anything about prestige classes; I'm pointing out how the mechanics reflect the concept to some degree.

[Amnestic]

I never said anything about prestige classes; I'm pointing out how the mechanics reflect the concept to some degree.

The mechanics reflect that Sorcerers can specialise - there's no barrier for PrC specialisation.

[Juntao112]

Wow, you are incredibly inflammatory. I offer evidence from the primary text of why I hold my position, and instead of answering the evidence, you accuse me of being ideologically biased? (this is a veiled ad hominem, ignoring an argument and going after character) I use induction, and you accuse me of deduction? You might want to invest some time in learning about textual analysis, it's been around since the 12th century and practiced by many people to make their arguments about something like Moby ****, or Huck Finn, or say, RPGs.


I must address this first and foremost due to the nature of the accusation.

I stand by my original statement that you are simply seeing what you want to see. You see fluff about how beginning sorcerers suffer power incontinence (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerIncontinence) and extrapolate from there that when 3.0E was being designed, sorcerers originally had a random spell mechanic. Third edition has been around for over a decade now, and the development of the sorcerer class is not known to have ever included a random spell mechanic at any point.

To say this is jumping to (pre-conceived) conclusions is something of an understatement. It would be like saying that since the sorcerer's class description contains the line "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list" that the designers, at some point, intended the sorcerer to have access to the spell lists of all other spellcasting classes.

[Xelbiuj]

This wouldn't be too bad if you let them apply meta magic with no penalty.
Since they "lack control" or whatever, they're always overdoing it.

Also get rid of casting penalties with armor for em. :D

[Bakeru]

I think the most important argument in this discussion has already been unearthed from the PHB:
Broski, go back and read the very first line of the sorcerer entry in the PHB. It could pretty much describe any non-NPC class, any hero in history, any character that requires mechanical support to its narrative function:
"Sorcerers create magic the
way a poet creates poems, with
inborn talent honed by
practice."Underlining by me.

Sure, some poems come by just "by themselves", but most? Hard work. Also, I dare to suspect that a trained poet can decide what kind of poem he's going to write.

A sorcerer isn't going to say "I want to learn fireball on my next level", but he could think "Wouldn't it be great if I knew how to cause a huge explosion of fire in the distance? Now how might that work?", and then, due to his natural talent and inspiration, he'll come upon a magical combination that does just that, the same way a bard would think "I want to write an epic about Sir Killsalot, let's see, where do I start?".

The difference (in fluff) is, a mage gains his spells by a meticulous analysis of every aspect of the spell. A sorcerer just eyeballs the details.

[Deadline]

I'd happily give it a try for a one-shot, or short campaign. But as others have pointed out, given that spells in D&D are not balanced with each other, you could wind up with a list of spells that isn't very useful in most situations an adventurer usually finds themselves in.

I do find it odd that you seem to think a sorcerer with random spells would be fun, but a fighter with random feats would not. Is there a reason for this CaladanMoonblad? Why is the purported challenge of being less useful only true for the sorcerer?

As a side note, what is up with the rash of "Real RoleplayerTM" comments? Do we really have that many people here who actually think there is a superior way to play D&D? Or is this an April Fool's thing?

[Karnith]

As a side note, what is up with the rash of "Real RoleplayerTM" comments? Do we really have that many people here who actually think there is a superior way to play D&D? Or is this an April Fool's thing?
Only real role-players like me know how to play D&D. From having played 1e, I know that that randomly-assigned stats, being useless, and dying constantly is the one true way to play. Everyone else is doing it wrong and using the game incorrectly, and should feel bad about themselves.

Seriously, though, I dunno why this thread of all threads attracted these kinds of statements. Maybe something about randomly-determined player characteristics attracts people who are really passionate about this kind of thing?

[TuggyNE]

Seriously, though, I dunno why this thread of all threads attracted these kinds of statements. Maybe something about randomly-determined player characteristics attracts people who are really passionate about this kind of thing?

Oh, probably. Stick in there something about how if you get a natural 1 on a (Spellcraft check/touch attack roll/spell penetration check/random d20 roll) your next spell automatically becomes (magic aura/floating disk/hold portal/obscure object/magic mouth/whatever), and bam! You'll get every old-school player in the Playground! :smalltongue:

(Well, for a certain definition of "old-school", anyway.)

[Pickford]

So I randomly determined a level 10 Sorcerer spell known list.

What I did was roll a die to see what school of magic the spell would be in, for each spell known I allowed it to be a different school (threw the sorcerer a bone on that one I guess). Thus I have 3 level 3 spells and therefore 3 schools of magic.

Then I rolled a die to see which spell from the list the sorcerer would know.

It didn't turn out to bad actually.


Level 1
Hold Portal
Mage Armor
Charm Person
Feather Fall
Obscuring Mist

Level 2
Eagle's Splendor
Blindness/Deafness
Flaming Sphere
Locate Object

Level 3
Sepia Snake Symbol
Tiny Hut
Vampiric Touch

Level 4
Gease, Lesser
Stone Shape

Level 5
Nightmare

So although not the most optimal choices, this sorcerer didn't turn out half bad if used the right way.

Would I retrain one spell to get magic missile? Yup, but I'm still not that bad.

Shouldn't you know 9 0th level spells too? (There are actually a lot of options there)

I think this would be a fascinating thought experiment:

Randomly roll for spells on a caster class and then figure out how to deal with a series of trials just using those spells. Doesn't even have to be a sorc, could run this with anything really.

[SaintRidley]

I really like the Chaos Sorcerer posted on the last page. Really like it.

Strange that there seems to be a bit of a tempest in here, though. The storm winds are really whipping up. I think I'll take my leave for now.

[CaladanMoonblad]

The mechanics reflect that Sorcerers can specialise - there's no barrier for PrC specialisation.

Negatory- sorcerers cannot specialize in a specific school, which is what I originally stated. I said nothing about prestige classes.

[CaladanMoonblad]

I must address this first and foremost due to the nature of the accusation.

I stand by my original statement that you are simply seeing what you want to see. You see fluff about how beginning sorcerers suffer power incontinence (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerIncontinence) and extrapolate from there that when 3.0E was being designed, sorcerers originally had a random spell mechanic. Third edition has been around for over a decade now, and the development of the sorcerer class is not known to have ever included a random spell mechanic at any point.

To say this is jumping to (pre-conceived) conclusions is something of an understatement. It would be like saying that since the sorcerer's class description contains the line "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list" that the designers, at some point, intended the sorcerer to have access to the spell lists of all other spellcasting classes.

Negatory- I left that as an open question and speculation, I never stated it as a fact. Your characterization of what I have said, is called a strawman, or falsely representing an opposing argument simply to knock it over. Please use direct quotes instead of paraphrases.

[Amnestic]

Negatory- sorcerers cannot specialize in a specific school, which is what I originally stated. I said nothing about prestige classes.

You didn't say 'school' - you said nothing about that at all. You merely said that they could not specialise. I'd argue that between PrCs and their far more limited set of Spells Known, they are actually far more specialised than a Wizard would ever be.

[CaladanMoonblad]

I do find it odd that you seem to think a sorcerer with random spells would be fun, but a fighter with random feats would not. Is there a reason for this CaladanMoonblad? Why is the purported challenge of being less useful only true for the sorcerer?

As a side note, what is up with the rash of "Real RoleplayerTM" comments? Do we really have that many people here who actually think there is a superior way to play D&D? Or is this an April Fool's thing?

As stated before, Known Spells and Bonus Fighter Feats are apples and oranges, and the suggested mechanic is based upon the description of the class. As a writer, I appreciate mechanics that make sense of the concept- what most people on this board call "fluff." There is a distinction in the background information for sorcerers and fighters; one is born that way, and the other trains under a specific program (with a few exceptions that are self taught). To claim a random mechanic for bonus fighter feats is to ignore the reality of elite soldiers. RPG is a model for the real world, and extrapolates other aspects of fantasy literature (like magic).

I'm a Factist; there are specific ideologies that drive play. Please see Gary Alan Fine's typology of RPGers in "Shared Fantasy (http://www.amazon.com/Shared-Fantasy-Playing-Social-Worlds/dp/0226249441/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1365022472&sr=8-3&keywords=gary+alan+fine)," the seminal sociological study of gamers in the late 1970s and early 1980s. You will find that motivations have not changed much.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Shouldn't you know 9 0th level spells too? (There are actually a lot of options there)

I think this would be a fascinating thought experiment:

Randomly roll for spells on a caster class and then figure out how to deal with a series of trials just using those spells. Doesn't even have to be a sorc, could run this with anything really.

And that's what made my wife really want to try this concept; it's a challenge. I always found it weird that Clerics/Druids get to choose what spells their deity gifts them with; wouldn't there be a high demand for certain spells because every cleric/druid is asking for "the best spells" for each day? What a multi-tasker these deities must be, recharging their followers every day with exactly what they ask for... instead of taking what they can get.

Imagine a world where there is a barrier to the divine powers, such that only certain spells get sent through to followers; this random spell mechanic could be employed by people who constantly lament the power of casters vs. martial characters. It would certainly increase the challenge of playing a caster.

[CaladanMoonblad]

You didn't say 'school' - you said nothing about that at all. You merely said that they could not specialise. I'd argue that between PrCs and their far more limited set of Spells Known, they are actually far more specialised than a Wizard would ever be.

Sigh..

Look, here is exactly what I typed...


So yes, a sorcerer practices every day, but the power is innate. The fact sorcerers cannot specialize is another mechanic pointing to the fluff.

I say nothing about prestige classes, because I am not referring to prestige classes, instead I am talking about specialization because I was talking about sorcerer background text in the PHB, which bars specialization like a wizard does. Excuse me if you misinterpreted what I was saying.

[Karnith]

Caladan, since you are responding to multiple posts in this thread, you may find this board's multi-quote tool (it's the little quotation mark button that you see at the bottom of people's posts, next to the quote button) useful, so that you can respond to people in one post rather than making several different posts.


Shouldn't you know 9 0th level spells too? (There are actually a lot of options there)
Yeah, but how often are your cantrips going to be useful (assuming you don't luck out and get Prestidigitation)?

[JoshuaZ]

Yeah, but how often are your cantrips going to be useful (assuming you don't luck out and get Prestidigitation)?

That's not the only useful cantrip. Detect Magic and Light are pretty useful to have also. Message and Mage Hand are also nice to have sometimes. Hmm, so being generous with that, there are 18 cantrips in 3.5 core, with five that are apparently useful. A sorcerer gets a max of five cantrips known. So the chance that they get at least one of those five is 1- (13 c 5)/(18 c 5)= .85. So there's an 85% chance you'll get at least one decent cantrip. Unfortunately, even all of those are situational. The chance that you'll have at least two decent cantrips is around 50%, and it goes down rapidly after that.

[Karnith]

A sorcerer gets a max of five cantrips known.
Actually, sorcerers max out at 9 cantrips known, at tenth level.

[JoshuaZ]

Actually, sorcerers max out at 9 cantrips known, at tenth level.

Oops. Right. Ok. In that case my calculation is very far off. Ok. Looking at the sorcerer table for spells known, there's a very high chance you'll have at least a useful cantrip and most likely have multiple useful cantrips by the end. So at long as at least fourth level or so, this won't be so bad.

[Bakeru]

[...] and the suggested mechanic is based upon the description of the class.No, it's based on one half of the description of the class, entirely ignoring the other half. Read the first sentence again:
Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice.
Yes, it talks of inborn talent. It also talks of practice, and compares it to poems.

Now, I am aware that some poets say that their poems write themselves, but most work pretty hard at them, and make meticulous choices about them. Poems are not random.

The source of the sorcerers magic is innate, as is the talent of a poet. But what he does with it - the specific spells he forms (or poems a poet writes) - is hard work, practice, skill and choice.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Caladan, since you are responding to multiple posts in this thread, you may find this board's multi-quote tool (it's the little quotation mark button that you see at the bottom of people's posts, next to the quote button) useful, so that you can respond to people in one post rather than making several different posts.


I see how that works now. Thank you very much Karnith for the suggestion.


No, it's based on one half of the description of the class, entirely ignoring the other half. Read the first sentence again:
Yes, it talks of inborn talent. It also talks of practice, and compares it to poems.


Okay, let's count up how many description sentences apply to each prevailing camp on sorcerer (trained/choice, and inborn ability/less choice).

In the description, I see exactly 1 sentence for your position (the first sentence of the Sorcerer description).

The second sentence, suggests the other; They have no books, no mentors, no theories- just raw power that they direct at will. The next sentence I would classify as inborn/less choice is "A sorcerer's power is inborn- part of his soul." The next sentences I would also claim for inborn/less choice "...Developing power is a quest in itself for many sorcerers, regardless of how they wish to use their power... Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through careful training and study. Their magic is intuitive rather than logical. Sorcerers do not specialize in certain schools of magic the way wizards sometimes do."

So... I count 5 to 1 in the textual discourse for the two visions, and the first is clearly metaphorical (so a 50/50- just because I was born with the ability to paint well, doesn't mean I become a Picasso without practice).

[Gnorman]

Or, as an alternative, we could acknowledge that fluff is completely mutable, and that the difference between sorcerer and wizard is not necessarily one of intuition or inherent power or natural magic but just training - the sorcerer trains really hard on specific spells, to the exclusion of all others. Such a single-minded devotion is better represented by personal commitment and focus, hence why Charisma is used rather than Intelligence.

Wizards are the academic dilettantes, whereas Sorcerers are the professional specialists. Wizards go to liberal arts colleges for the Magical Humanities degree; Sorcerers go to trade schools for the Magical Technical degree. Both have totally viable career prospects once they graduate.

[Karnith]

Or, as an alternative, we could acknowledge that fluff is completely mutable,
Sorry, you lost me there. The PHB class description is inviolable and clearly specifies that I shouldn't have control over the spells I learn at each level.

I have always found sticking to class fluff to be pretty silly, especially since a lot of it is really terribly written (martial adepts) and/or incredibly vague (fighter), and often contradicts the mechanics of the class (Monks are experts at unarmed combat? Interesting...).

[Gnorman]

"Fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities"

[Amnestic]

The second sentence, suggests the other; They have no books, no mentors, no theories- just raw power that they direct at will.

"They direct". Not "is randomly determined". They direct their powers by force of will.


"...Developing power is a quest in itself for many sorcerers, regardless of how they wish to use their power

That statement says to me "regardless of whether they wish to be a tyrannical evil person or angelic cherub, developing their power is a quest in itself. It's a statement as to intent with their power, not with their methodology for actual use/learning.


wouldn't there be a high demand for certain spells because every cleric/druid is asking for "the best spells" for each day? What a multi-tasker these deities must be, recharging their followers every day with exactly what they ask for... instead of taking what they can get.

Multi-tasking? From divine beings? Why, that's just ridiculous.

[Bakeru]

So... I count 5 to 1 in the textual discourse for the two visionsAdding to Amnestic's post:
"Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through careful training and study." And I draw circles using a compass (the drawing tool), instead of doing it without tools. Doesn't change that both I and the guy who (through talent and practice) can do it without tools have to choose to draw a circle. Sorcerers eyeball it, and they can eyeball it because they have magic running in their veins.
"Their magic is intuitive rather than logical." As I said. Eyeballing it because of natural talent instead of meticulous analysis and study. They just feel what gives the right result instead of having to think about it.
"Sorcerers do not specialize in certain schools of magic the way wizards sometimes do." This still doesn't say anything about the topic at hand. At all. It talks about schools, not single spells.


and the first is clearly metaphorical (so a 50/50- just because I was born with the ability to paint well, doesn't mean I become a Picasso without practice).Where did you get the idea that a sorcerer could cast powerful spells without practice? That's what experience points stand for. He needs to train to do more than scribbles/first level spells.


Basically, the fluff points at sorcerers having magical furnaces in their souls that fuel their magic (but they choose what to do with it, and, through practice, choose how they form it), while wizards have to carefully use the magic around them to do what they want.

[lord pringle]

Idea:

Alternate Class Feature - Chaos Sorceror

Your Spells Known for each level is reduced by 1.
Each time you spend 8 hours rest recovering spells, your Spells Known for that day include 2 extra spells from each level you can cast, chosen at random.

A little time consuming to pull out that many dice each morning, but potentially gives a fun mix of the reliable stuff you chose and then the random spells occasionally being worthwhile. "Wow, I actually cast Locate Object to find that stolen key instead of Invisibility/Scorching Ray/Hideous Laughter! Will be kinda sad when I lose it (and Magic Mouth) tomorrow! *gains Spider Climb and Whispering Wind* Ooh, this could be interesting."

It's like looting unusual scrolls from a treasure hoard, makes you look at different angles to solve a problem :)
I'd play it.

D&D Is not about optimization and killing monsters. It's about "ROLEPLAYING".
"D&D a Roleplaying Game" not "D&D a Optimization Game about doing Math and sticking it to RAW"
And playing a DMM: Persist Cleric magically stops me from creating a fun 3 dimensional character?

The way I'd do this would be to effectively just add this Sorcerer casting on top of a normal build. Thus I could be a Monk with Sorcerous power who has a bunch of random spells. The character is still useful and able to do things, but has this random fun stuff added in.

JaronK
I'd play it.

I really like the Chaos Sorcerer posted on the last page. Really like it.

Strange that there seems to be a bit of a tempest in here, though. The storm winds are really whipping up. I think I'll take my leave for now.

I see what you did there.

[Slipperychicken]

What a multi-tasker these deities must be, recharging their followers every day with exactly what they ask for... instead of taking what they can get.


To be fair, though, you need to make an appointment (specific hour of the day), and they keep you on hold for an hour before you get the spells you want. Also, they have mental ability scores in the 40s and automatically know everything related to their portfolios (which probably includes what spells people will want) 17 weeks into the future and the past. Also, it doesn't take any sort of action to grant spells. So I think it's pretty reasonable.


Since you can gain spells from praying to the non-sentient ideal of Neutrality, which can't consciously approve spell preparation, you could argue the deities don't need to do it either.

[Cerlis]

2- Cat's Grace, Spectral Hand
1- Burning Hands, Expeditious Retreat, True Strike, Ventriloquism

Buff the fighter or rogue who goes into combat (+4 dex would certainly offset that ranger's rapid shot), burn stuff, True strike on weapon users. trick the enemy with ventriloquism, quickly run somewhere and do something (just ask The Flash, runing is a super power), and move stuff with his brain.


this isnt Halo, there is ALOT of ways of contributing to a group that dont involve damage. thats way almost this entire forum disregards evocation spells (the "Damage dealing" school") and view the Warmage as weak.



------------------

this is what i like about a marvel game and i prefer to get my powers randomly.

Intelligent players have nothing to worry about.

It WOULD make sense to basically have certain tables rolled independantly. For instance between 4 spells known at a level 2 are rolled from a combat table, and 2 are rolled from a utility table.



and there should be room for the sorcerer to learn one or two spells per level of his choice.

[Karnith]

Buff the fighter or rogue who goes into combat (+4 dex would certainly offset that ranger's rapid shot),Spending a standard action in-combat to give an ally at touch range +2 to hit isn't exactly my idea of time or resources well-spent (though, since he literally can't do anything else with his second-level spells, I suppose it's the best he can do). Additionally, it's an enhancement bonus and won't stack with magic items, so it will very quickly become useless or near-useless.

burn stuff,With one of the weakest blasting spells in Core (average damage: 12.5 on a failed Reflex save after 5th level), but sure.

True strike on weapon users.Doesn't work. True Strike has a range of personal.

trick the enemy with ventriloquism,
Situationally useful at best, but sure, I'll grant that.
quickly run somewhere and do something (just ask The Flash, runing is a super power)I suppose that running away would make you more survivable, but that's not really contributing to the party. I can't think of a situation besides running away in which the high movement speed from Expeditious Retreat would have been a worthwhile investment in a game that I've run, but okay.

EDIT: Well, a bonus to Jump checks could be useful, I suppose.

and move stuff with his brain.Doesn't work. Spectral Hand is incorporeal, and can only be used to deliver touch spells.

this isnt Halo, there is ALOT of ways of contributing to a group that dont involve damage.And a character with the spell list above will have basically nothing worthwhile to do in or out of combat (and, incidentally, nothing that he couldn't have done at first level). A DM would need to make a conscious effort to include situations in which such a character could contribute, and even then a lot of what he does isn't much better than what anyone is capable of. Not to mention how contrived situations that will make him feel useful would be. This character would basically be Aquaman, but with worse tricks.

And that's not even the worst list that you could get.

Intelligent players have nothing to worry about.Unless, of course, they get unlucky and get assigned terrible spells, which is an especially bad problem when you're only going to end up with a tiny number of spells at your highest spell level. See my "Oh God please kill me" spell list for some examples.

[Agincourt]

Situationally useful at best, but sure, I'll grant that.I suppose that running away would make you more survivable, but that's not really contributing to the party. I can't think of a situation besides running away in which a high movement speed has been a worthwhile investment in a game that I've run, but okay.

EDIT: Well, a bonus to Jump checks could be useful, I suppose.
Doesn't work. Spectral Hand is incorporeal, and can only be used to deliver touch spells.


I can't think of a class where higher movement wouldn't be more useful in each and every combat. Since we're talking about Sorcerers here, and Expeditious Retreat has a range of "personal," I'll limit my discussion to them. It's much easier to avoid attacks of opportunity if you have extra movement to take the long route to wherever it is you need to go. Many buffing spells require touch, and you're much better able to deliver those if you can get there in one move action. You can get in better position for, say, Lightning Bolt, if you have the movement to do it.

The biggest problem with Expeditious Retreat is that is doesn't stack with much. Most ways of increasing movement speed are enhancement bonuses and would overlap. Add to that the short duration (minutes/level) and its usefulness is really diminished. If it lasted as long as Longstrider though, I'd probably take it for all my arcane casters.

[Karnith]

I can't think of a class where higher movement wouldn't be more useful in each and every combat.
Well, when I said "a worthwhile investment," I meant "worth using a standard action on, likely in combat," because I was specifically thinking of Expeditious Retreat. And while extra movement speed is nice, there are more than a few other spells I'd cast before Expeditious Retreat in most combats. Like a Save-or-Lose, for instance.

I've edited my post to be more clear on what I meant, though.

[Pickford]

Caladan, since you are responding to multiple posts in this thread, you may find this board's multi-quote tool (it's the little quotation mark button that you see at the bottom of people's posts, next to the quote button) useful, so that you can respond to people in one post rather than making several different posts.


Yeah, but how often are your cantrips going to be useful (assuming you don't luck out and get Prestidigitation)?

Detect Poison could mean life or death. Could be poisoned but not magic.