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Asta Kask
2013-04-01, 09:29 AM
I thought I'd start this thread as a form of mental self-defense - to see what kind of bad arguments are used against LGBTA people, why they are wrong and how to counter them, if necessary. Since these types of arguments are not unique to LGBTA-phobes, it is also useful in other walks of life, like against pseudo-science. But I thought I'd start with a concept that is useful when arguing:


Burden of Proof
Burden of proof means the responsobility for providing the evidence, the reasons for accepting a claim. The burden of proof always rests with the person making the positive claim. For instance, if I claim that there are fairies in my cellar, I could point to strange noises and tracks in the dust. I could not just sit there and say "prove that there isn't." I make the claim, I give the evidence.

There is a reason this is termed as the burden of proof. It is more difficult to have the burden of proof, to defend a proposition rather than to be on the offense. Such are the perils of stating that something is the case. So, shifting the burden of proof is an old and popular pastime. Often the difference can seem semantic. If I claim that Randolph Carter is not guilty of killing Harley Warren a prosecutor could say that I say that his innocent. Since this is a positive claim I should prove it. But that's not how it works. There is a difference between not believing someone is guilty and believing that he is innocent. I could simply be unconvinced. It is important to have a clear idea of one's own position so one knows whether one should provide evidence or not.

In practise, however, the difference between "not guilty" and "innocent" is not so large. In both cases we let the accused go. It doesn't matter so much if we believe there are no fairies in the cellar or whether we're just unconvinced, we're unlikely to put out cookies and milk for them.

And here (http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx) is a useful list of "bad arguments" classified according to where the flaw in their logic lies. We'll cover the most important of these as time goes by. The reason we do this is that anti-LGBTA arguments are frequently stated as facts about LGBTA people. These "facts" then provide a reason for disliking them. Disprove the fact and you remove the dislike (well, not exactly but you know...)

Lord Raziere
2013-04-01, 09:56 AM
Disclaimer: Lord Raziere is simply stating these arguments as devil's advocate. He does not actually believe in any of them. He in fact hates them with a fiery passion and is only stating them so that they will be torn down. Also, he will be stating arguments that while not used now or yet, can still potentially be used, best cover all possible things yes?

1. homosexual marriage (or some other LGBTA thing) will destroy society, because society is based on various traditional relationships that LGBTA does not have.

2. LGBTA is sub-optimal, as intercourse needs to be used properly for its real purpose, which is for reproduction.

3. LGBTA isn't real

4. LGBTA is just a fad of the times, it will pass and eventually fade like any youthful rebellion

5. LGBTA are a bunch of sex-crazed flamboyant hedonists who just want their sinful pleasures legitimized.

6. LGBTA are defective and need to cured of the deviant condition they are suffering

7. LGBTA is unnatural and does not belong in real society, because its relationships cannot achieve the same qualities a relationship between a man and woman can.

that is all for now, I will return hopefully with more for you all to tear apart. have a good time destroying the arguments!

Asta Kask
2013-04-01, 10:05 AM
We don't have to destroy anything, you have the burden of proof in all those cases. You've stated it, now show it!

pendell
2013-04-01, 10:09 AM
I cannot participate in this thread until the forum mods have clarified that A) it is on-topic for GiantITP and B) exactly what the bounds are for that discussion.

Even then, I think that it's going to be too limited to answer properly. After all, religion plays a big part in that. Religion is a primary, serious motivating factor for many people but we can't discuss it at all here. It's like wanting to discuss someone's body but leaving any discussion of their lungs or their stomach out.

So it's an excellent question with a need for a good answer. I'm just not persuaded that this is the place for it.

ETA: The GiantITP facebook group might be a place where we could talk about it freely -- where "Freely" is defined as voluntarily without rancor but without forum restrictions. The giant doesn't pay server space for the facebook group, after all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Roland St. Jude
2013-04-01, 10:42 AM
Sheriff: Discussions of LGBTA issues are not inherently against the Forum Rules, as evidenced by the long-running thread in this subforum, but gay marriage/marriage equality are at the forefront of U.S. political debate and are very politicized. And while saying "my religion compels me to respond X to this issue" isn't grounds for shutting down others' speech here, the issue is freighted with religious issues. It's like asking, "what is Jack Chick's problems with gaming?"

Without any comment on the importance or usefulness of the discussion, it just isn't one that works well here given our topical prohibitions.