ToB/PF Question

[Karoht]

So, as some on this board have been doing, I've been toying with some ideas from Tome of Battle and using them in Pathfinder.

Our play group tried a 3.5 + PF campaign a while back, there were some poor reactions to anything used from 3.5, especially some stuff from ToB. Most of it appears to be a mental block, and much of it centers around certain players use/abuse of select elements of material.

As such, the implimentation I had in mind in order to orientate everyone on ToB was involve a few NPC's (not a DMPC, just to be clear), and some items which grant manouvers, and a few select class features from appropriate ToB classes.

For example, I might grant armor which bestows a Crusaders damage pool ability. A hammer which grants a set number of uses per day of Mountain Hammer. A horn which grants a set number of uses per day of some White Raven school manouvers. And so forth.

Any suggestions?
Any cautions?
Anything that should be outright avoided?

I do want to track these items for WBL purposes, and I may grant a bit of a WBL 'margin for error' to account for these items in play. I take it I price out items with manouvers the same way one prices out items with spells?

[meemaas]

There's an item in the book for each school that grants a manuever, so i suggest giving out refluffed versions of those at best.

I do suggest, since it probably matters, to be very clear about the uses of some of the more poorly written manuevers, such as IHS and WRT, to prevent abuse. When i mention ToB to people i know, IHS always comes up as the single most poorly written item in the book. It scares people, to an extent.

[Karoht]

There's an item in the book for each school that grants a manuever, so i suggest giving out refluffed versions of those at best.

I do suggest, since it probably matters, to be very clear about the uses of some of the more poorly written manuevers, such as IHS and WRT, to prevent abuse. When i mention ToB to people i know, IHS always comes up as the single most poorly written item in the book. It scares people, to an extent.
Yeup.
No Iron Heart Surge-ing the Sun.
No, you do not count as an ally for White Raven stuff. It affects everyone BUT you.
The best part is, no one has the book, or a good level of access to it. Therefore when I make the items and refluff them, I can build disclaimers in like that. Then I print off those items, hand the sheet directly to the player/s.
RAW and RAI right there.

[Evard]

Yeup.
No Iron Heart Surge-ing the Sun.
No, you do not count as an ally for White Raven stuff. It affects everyone BUT you.
The best part is, no one has the book, or a good level of access to it. Therefore when I make the items and refluff them, I can build disclaimers in like that. Then I print off those items, hand the sheet directly to the player/s.
RAW and RAI right there.

In all fairness WRT isn't that messed up compared to what caster get to do.. Chain Spell? Twin Ray? Celerity? Sure they come with a price (somewhat) but what you get to do with them vastly out powers what you can do with WRT (unless you are part cleric which then again DMM ...).

Iron Heart Surge's problem is not its wording BUT how WoTC describes planar effects and such. If you fix the big problem IHS isn't so much of a cheesetastical ability.

WRT is fine, Crusaders or Warblades really have no "omg I win" buttons unless you add in other class abilities. To fix IHS just put a clause under planar effects where nothing can turn them off (alter yes, off = no) in all honesty wotc should have worded everything they ever made better >.>.

But who knows maybe they wanted warblades turn off the sun? Wouldn't be the first time they did some crazy...

[Karoht]

I might just say IHS doesn't make the cut. Or just reword it carefully. Maybe even with a set list of effects it can affect.

Any other particularly bad manouvers I should stay away from?

[Glimbur]

Iron Heart Surge's problem is not its wording BUT how WoTC describes planar effects and such. If you fix the big problem IHS isn't so much of a cheesetastical ability.

The other problem with IHS is that it doesn't work when many people think it should. Paralyzed? You can't initiate a maneuver. Dominated? Ask 'mother may I?'. Stunned? See 'paralyzed'. And so on. It is useful, but as written it doesn't do everything that Conan could by shouting "By Crom!".

Shadow Hand allows some teleportation nearly at-will, which can mess with puzzles and encounters and such. There's a low level stance that gives Scent, which is also utility. But as far as breaking combat goes, I wouldn't expect the problems to come from 'too much damage'.

[Larkas]

Just for the record, you might want to take a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13731961&postcount=24).

[AttilaTheGeek]

Just for the record, you might want to take a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13731961&postcount=24).

Ooh. Wow. I came to this thread thinking the same thing as the OP, and I will definitely use that.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Just for the record, you might want to take a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13731961&postcount=24).That is a great guide. Follow it. I would recommend slightly boosting and altering the martial adepts further.

Crusader:
- Move "Mettle" to level 11. Rename it "Stalwart,." As the Inquisitor ability of the same kind.
- Add a second use of Zealous Surge/day at level 13.
- 12th level, Smite 2/day. 18th level Smite 3/day.

Swordsage:
- Give the swordsage the adapative style feat for free at 3rd level. It's just a meaningless feat tax
- Move Evasion to Level 7. This puts it more in line with when Pathfinder expects you to enter prestige classes.
- Remove Sense Magic. It was always an out of place ability.

Warblade:
- Alter the progression of bonus feats so that they occur at 4, 8, 12, and 16, instead of 5, 9, 13, and 17 (when they will already be getting feats).
- Additional Bonus feat at 20th level.

Yeah, that's all I would change. Minor boosts to remove some annoying abilities, and put the progression more in line with the Pathfinder.

[Karoht]

Ooooh, cool sauce. I have to look that up later.

@Suggestions
Nice. I like the concept of fixing the dead levels on Warblade. Which is very much something I think Pathfinder did right for pretty much all the classes.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, you can use NPCs to show off some of the cool stuff Initiators get, like the Iron Heart parrying maneuver, or Setting Sun judo.

[Karoht]

Well, you can use NPCs to show off some of the cool stuff Initiators get, like the Iron Heart parrying maneuver, or Setting Sun judo.That is essentially the plan. NPC's and a few badguys even.

[Feralventas]

It might be worthwhile to look at the Legacy weapons in the ToB and consider granting them to the more martially-minded individuals of the party. A Legacy weapon is intended to be a powerful thing, and that should give plenty reason for using the maneuvers if they feel that they're too potent normally.

The weapons each grant an Enhancement bonus that grows with time, and a number of other abilities like 1/day use of a Martial Maneuver, or something fitting the style of the disciipline it's associated with.

Barbarian? Unfettered Blade of the Stone Dragon.
Fencer/Swashbuckler? Supernal Clarity of the Diamond Mind.
Sneaky-stabby Rogue? Umbral Awn.
Valiant Paladin? Devoted Spirit's Faithful Avenger.

It also will encourage them to go on quests to unlock their weapon's full abilities, and in doing so develop an interest in learning about the discipline it harkens from.

[Person_Man]

Each Discipline has a small number of unique-ish things it does. And even then, they can still be replicated via other means within the 3.5 and/or PF framework, just not as elegantly. When you get down to some serious list making, everything in D&D boils down to a very similar collection of damage dealing, status effects, buffs, and action juggling. Tome of Battle is no different in that respect.

The main difference is in the fluff - giving characters without magic (or one of it's cousins, psionics, vestiges, soulmelds, etc) access to stuff that you usually need magic to do.

Knowing that, you can just have them fight a "Holy Warrior" or "Arcane Blade" or whatever. Use the exact same effects with different packaging, and no one will be the wiser.

[NinjaInTheRye]

Be careful using NPCs to "show off" ToB, people who are already not fans of it are likely to see it an NPC Warblade doing cool things and say, "Ah ha, my Fighter can't do that! I knew it was broken!"

The idea of easing them into it with special magic items that grant ToB abilities and the like is a good one, I'd focus more on that.

[Karoht]

Be careful using NPCs to "show off" ToB, people who are already not fans of it are likely to see it an NPC Warblade doing cool things and say, "Ah ha, my Fighter can't do that! I knew it was broken!"

The idea of easing them into it with special magic items that grant ToB abilities and the like is a good one, I'd focus more on that.I agree completely with you. While I am unlikely to show off all the tricks of something like a Warblade or a Crusader or Spellsage, I am completely willing to have a Barbarian weilding an uber hammer running around and yelling "Mountain Hammer!" and crushing something into a fine paste. That's more the showing off I would do. And it can completely be explained by the weapon, which the PC's are likely going to loot from him.
Or at least, something to that effect.