Help: Morally incentivizing nonevil characters in campaign vs bbGg

[Jigokuro]

I've been trying to plan out a campaign where the antagonist is an Apostle of Peace that has gone entirely batty and want to basically make everybody capital G Good. The motivation to stop that is fairly easy to see (if you've read BoED, anyway); people tend to like having free will, and Good leaves little room for it (See: Sanctify the Wicked, aka Good Mindrape.) He develops a spell similar to Vision of Heaven but that effects neutral aligned targets as well and starts spreading the Good word... forcefully... with magic... and will saves no peasant could beat.
However, as I've actually tried to make a compelling campaign from that it just seems to have a hard time starting. If I could get it going there is plenty to do, but I'm just missing that hook event that could directly effect individuals (PCs) into realizing this is a guy worth stopping. On the surface it is just to easy to write off what he is doing as typical 'trying to make the world a better place'ness without ever getting to see he is going about it the wrong* way.
So I ask, how could I present a plot hook to my players that would interest their characters? (Other than the evil ones, obviously). I've had a few ideas, ranging from a fun CN bard (or barb) getting turned into a wet blanket to them learning how the outer planes could get thrown out of balance (the AoP is/will be L20, so he can be far reaching) but nothing jumps out as a great idea so far...

*Interestingly, the Good gods would almost all condone this, or at least not act against it. I'm pretty sure Boccob would be mad though... Ok side question: What gods would care strongly one way or the other?

P.S. What happens if you Sanctify the Wicked a lich? Its body crumbles and soul is trapped, but phylactery is unharmed. When it returns sanctified and gains a new body would it still be connected to the phyl? would the body be undead? I think yes and yes but I'd like other thoughts, or confirmations.

[Krobar]

Taking away free will is tantamount to tyranny. And wait until he starts converting people who worship neutral or even evil gods away from their alignments. There will be all kinds of organizations out to kill him, both good and evil.

And not all good gods will like that. Chaotic good gods aren't going to like the fact that your guy is taking free will away from their followers. They aren't going to like that at all. Tritherion, for example, would probably be highly antagonized by this.

Many neutral gods won't like it either, because he's throwing away all balance.

[Slipperychicken]

Do the players have actual backstories? Those can help. Additionally, you can say "The main event of this campaign will be fighting a brutal dictator who claims to be an Apostle of Peace. Come up with reasons for your characters to wage a long, hard war against him." Then, you work with them to make good motivations.

Perhaps the process of "purifying" people is extremely traumatic and leaves them morally alright, but also permanently scarred. They have dead thousand-yard-stare eyes, no ambition or motivation, and display symptoms of PTSD. They are easily intimidated, can't taste ice cream, and no longer enjoy their old hobbies or passions. You can kick them repeatedly, and they don't even cry out in pain, but obey whoever imposes his will on them. It basically drains all the personality out of them, leaving them (metaphorically) as soulless automatons. A few encounters with these people could help motivate the PCs.

[Da'Shain]

Culture begins to stagnate as the differences between minds begin to erode. Brainwashed "good" people begin attempting to emulate the BBGG, but lacking magical brainwashing abilities they do it with fire and sword, descending on any people or settlements that are even rumored to be nongood (as most of the converts will lack access to easy Detect spells). Wars break out as relations among nations break down due to newfound intolerance for the nongood, as well as the followers of nongood deities organizing in self-defense and possibly being newly empowered by their gods. Perhaps the economy breaks down as the increased number of unselfish business owners run their companies into the ground trying to do good works at the expense of turning a profit.

There are a number of delicate balances that will be upset by increasing the number of "good" people, and likely would result in large problems. Heck, if it gets too bad, then the Good-aligned planar powers might become scary enough for the devils and demons to put aside the Blood War in the face of a larger threat ... and then the world will pretty much end.

As for the lich question ... I don't remember the text of Sanctify the Wicked, but it seems fairly clear that it's Mind-Affecting, which simply wouldn't work on a lich.

[Bakeru]

As for the lich question ... I don't remember the text of Sanctify the Wicked, but it seems fairly clear that it's Mind-Affecting, which simply wouldn't work on a lich.Nope. It's "Necromancy [Good]", so it probably would work on a lich, by RAW.

Still, I'd say that, first, it would have to be cast on the phylactery, not the lich body, since the lich body is just a remote controlled empty shell.
Second, I'd have to rip out the soul out of the phylactery, which is specifically build to keep the soul inside. A caster level check (against an probably epic caster) is the very least effort it should take here.
Third, since this would break the phylactery, it would be the end of the lich. If Sanctify the Wicked runs its full course, he goes to some good aligned plane, otherwise, he goes to whatever plane he'd have gone if simply destroyed.

None of this is RAW, but it's what makes sense to me.

[Juntao112]

Make it so that everyone under the BBEG's control has the same opinions and agrees with his vision for the greater good (the greater good) in the same dull monotone.

[Da'Shain]

Nope. It's "Necromancy [Good]", so it probably would work on a lich, by RAW.

Still, I'd say that, first, it would have to be cast on the phylactery, not the lich body, since the lich body is just a remote controlled empty shell.
Second, I'd have to rip out the soul out of the phylactery, which is specifically build to keep the soul inside. A caster level check (against an probably epic caster) is the very least effort it should take here.
Third, since this would break the phylactery, it would be the end of the lich. If Sanctify the Wicked runs its full course, he goes to some good aligned plane, otherwise, he goes to whatever plane he'd have gone if simply destroyed.

None of this is RAW, but it's what makes sense to me.Huh. That seems odd, but then, it is a 9th level spell, I guess.

I tend to view liches similarly to how OotS handles it (soul remains in the undead body until it's killed; the phylactery is essentially a fortress that it retreats to upon death), but that would work just as well with what you suggest, since upon death there would be two spell effects dragging the soul in opposite directions.

Can the spell target objects, though? Because I'm fairly sure a phylactery doesn't count as a creature.

[Bakeru]

Can the spell target objects, though? Because I'm fairly sure a phylactery doesn't count as a creature.It... Oh, nope. "One evil creature". You couldn't even animate it, since then it'd be a true neutral construct (which is a funny idea, come to think of it: Lich with a construct as phylactery).
Also, that means that this spell can turn any evil being (well, anything except outsiders with the subtype [evil]*), including skeletons and zombies, into a good, sanctified creature. But the true neutral, but utterly selfish Doppelganger? Nope, fails to work, until it becomes evil.
Exalted Good is weird like that.

* Edit: Actually, the spell works on any evil creature, and applies the template if it isn't interrupted. But the template cannot be applied to outsiders with the [evil] subtype. I'm going to the dysfunctional rules topic...

[mangosta71]

If the PCs need incentive, the dude has forcibly converted their families. Or, if you talk to your players and find one willing to go this route, one of the PCs gets mindraped into his minion - the character becomes an NPC under the BBEG's control and that player rolls a new character to help the party overcome and avenge their former comrade.

[Xervous]

Random flashes of "ONE OF US... ONE OF US..." and "Join us Jimmy Join us!" blew through my mind.

scary mobs of converts looking to propagate this change seems to be a common and good idea (mutually exclusive things of course).

[Dr_S]

It seems like when people start off like this, they tend to get carried away.

So maybe at first he's just changing alignments (which is too far, but in a world where he's created enough fear in the general public, it's something many would call a necessary evil... in the same way that rights vs. security is ALWAYS a conflict, whether it's TSA, Gun control, illegal search laws etc.)

However, just because the general public supports him, doesn't mean that all good aligned citizens will, so what happens to them?

What if your PCs spent some time in a town and it was kind of "Stepford Wives" kind of a situation, where people are treating each other a little too nice, don't seem to have a personality of their own?

Or perhaps they meet a character like "Joodee" from the last airbender series... who invites them to lake laogai...

Since non-evil and especially good characters who are fully aware of what this guy is up to may actively oppose him, what does he do to them? he believes his mission is good, so even if their alignment is good, they are committing an "evil" act in his mind and it's he has to take actions to stop them.

Let the PC's see what happens to those who can't simply be fixed with an alignment swap.

[illyrus]

I'd target their greed personally. After they raid a dungeon have some of the converted Good followers attempt to take their treasure to give to the poor or the rightful owners etc. Maybe they ask nicely first but it quickly escalates. Maybe someone "retrieves it" *cough* theft *cough*from the graverobbing PCs.

PCs hate having others trying to take their stuff and once they learn that there is someone responsible will want to do something about it. Really doesn't matter about backstory, class, alignment, etc; I haven't played with a gamer that is going to sit idly by while others take his or her treasure.

[Shining Wrath]

One: there's the whole Law-Chaos axis. Anyone not very Lawful is likely to be at least a little put off.

Two: Turning someone Good against their will is not necessarily good for them. I wouldn't want to be the only good person in a civilization of neutrals or evils. His "converts" may think the right thoughts, but that doesn't mean they are any happier or more successful; some may wind up being killed. So everywhere this guy goes, chaos and violence follow.

Third: It is extremely unlikely that any mere mortal, let alone a batty one, really understands perfectly what it is to be "good". Consider the paladin Miyo Miyazaki, whose sense of Law and Good was somewhat ... variable. Therefore, your BBGG doubtless fails routinely, but doesn't acknowledge that.

[cosmicAstrogazr]

One: there's the whole Law-Chaos axis. Anyone not very Lawful is likely to be at least a little put off.


I agree. Play up the Law vs. Chaos, rather than Good vs. Evil. Personally, I think the line between CG and LG is often much broader than the line between LE and LG, and this would be a good way to showcase that.

Sure, there's peace, but at what cost? Creativity? Individuality? The ability to change and grow, to draw some good out of even a terrible situation? Te ability to go your own way, to choose to agree to disagree, to... Well.

It's also possible, even in the case of a LG character, that they may thing the BBGG has just gone too far. Maybe they think that being Good has no meaning unless someone can choose to be otherwise. The hope, of course, is always that someone will choose Good, and maybe one should always strive to be an example, even an exemplar of that ideal, but taking that choice renders it meaningless.

...or something like that, anyway.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I'd start by looking at the actual results of his actions, and focusing on those areas where he's failing in his goals.

For example, he might frown on the notion of hereditary rule, and be attempting to abolish the notion of "Kingdoms" in favour of democracy or theocracy. While the end result of such might actually be noble, the immediate effect will involve destabilizing the region, allowing those who work outside the law to exert their power more overtly, etc.

Or, he could insist on racial tolerance towards the lesser races - to him, Adventurers would basically be genocidal vigilantes, and he and his agents would be trying to discourage such across the board; however, the world might not be ready for such to actually happen, so you'd be seeing goblin and kobold populations exploding, and, again, greater regional instability.

Basically, my idea would be to start with the areas where he's failing - maybe, at first, the players want him to succeed. However, the more time they spend seeing the actual effects of his actions, they start to realize that his goal is unattainable, at least by the methods he's currently using (or, at the very least, wouldn't be worth the cost.)

I have a very good metaphor for all this, but it would be a violation of the site's rules to post it. :smallannoyed:

[Phelix-Mu]

BBGG isn't being very good. It requires a surprisingly little amount of scare tactics before one is off the good path. Any removal of free will is off the path; sentient mortals are inherently free willed. Removing this from them, or getting them to remove it from themselves, is to distort their inherent nature, which is evil. Self-determination is an inherent right.

Or, more simply: A creature must have free will to be good, since making the choice to do Good acts has to be a choice. Removing the creature's ability to be good by choosing to do Good things is evil.

I wish it were easier to explain that.

In any case, it shouldn't take a genius to see where large-scale brainwashing, even benign brainwashing, is bad. If people can't discriminate between moral issues on their own, then the world is just one evil bard/enchanter/etc away from all being evil. So, a moral approach still works, as long as the characters can see through all of the propaganda and window-dressing.

Another route is the balance route. If the paragon of good is actually making everyone much more susceptible to evil (by brainwashing or w/e), then neutral people should be very concerned, as there needs to be distinction between what is considered good and what is considered evil in order for there to be balance.

Finally, sanctify the wicked is not the epitome of moral high ground, as it pretty much amounts to conversion by the sword, not a highlight of enlightened behavior. I generally only use that spell as a plot device.