shields, revisited(D&D 3.5, system change, PEACH)

[bobthe6th]

So, shields. You can chose to give up one hand to get a +1-4 bonus to AC! and that is flat footed AC. So... yeah... questionable. I have honestly never wanted to use one on a character I have run. It just doesn't seem worthwhile. So my idea(ok, I think I saw most of this other places, but not all together)!



1. Shield bonus to AC applies to touch AC and flatfooted AC. Shields are good at warding off touches as well as getting in the way even if you aren't paying attention.

Why? So the shield is actually useful, boosting the usually low portion of AC.

2. Light shields apply their AC bonus to reflex saves. Heavy shields act as light shields and grants evasion against area of effect effects. Extreme shields(RoS) act as heavy shields. Tower shields act as heavy shields, and provide their wielder Improved evasion against area of effect effects.

Why? You ever see a dragon fight in any movie? Remember the bit were the Hero fends of dragon fire with his shield? Yeah, wasn't that cool? Again, this makes the fact you are giving up offense to boost defense(a bad idea in D&D) almost worthwhile. Also, it make the guy giving up so much with a tower shield something nice.

To those that say this steps on the monks toes, I point out that this actually makes sense as a way to avoid damage from a burst.



so thoughts?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Heavy shields act as light shields" - can you explain that, please?

Aside from that, I like the proposals that I do understand.

Keeping shields for touch and flatfooted AC is good - but I'd say that you should lose the shield bonus to touch AC when you are flatfooted. If you haven't got your shield ready, then it's just part of your gear.

The evasion idea is good. Whether it makes up for loosing damage per round, I don't know.

[unbeliever536]

Nice idea. You could also just have shield AC be more significant if you change how armor works. We discussed "armor as DR" in Zeigander's fighter problem thread. Combine that with your idea here and suddenly S&B becomes the defensive monster it should be.

You could also add an ability to deflect attacks with your shield once per round (perhaps at the cost of an AoO?). This makes a lot more sense than Deflect Arrows anyway.

e: He means that each size increase of shield has all the properties of smaller shields in addition to some new ones.

[bobthe6th]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Heavy shields act as light shields" - can you explain that, please?


They provide shield bonus to reflex saves. It was meant to stop me from saying "provides shield bonus to reflex saves" three times.




Keeping shields for touch and flatfooted AC is good - but I'd say that you should lose the shield bonus to touch AC when you are flatfooted. If you haven't got your shield ready, then it's just part of your gear.


even when flat footed it is still a chunk of stuff in the way. Though I find the flatfooted touch attack to be a kinda silly thing.



The evasion idea is good. Whether it makes up for loosing damage per round, I don't know.

yes, but now it is almost legit.

edit: was ninj'd with another comment.

Nice idea. You could also just have shield AC be more significant if you change how armor works. We discussed "armor as DR" in Zeigander's fighter problem thread. Combine that with your idea here and suddenly S&B becomes the defensive monster it should be.

with the class armor bonus variant, it might be viable, but that was the idea.




You could also add an ability to deflect attacks with your shield once per round (perhaps at the cost of an AoO?). This makes a lot more sense than Deflect Arrows anyway.

that is nearing the land of parray... a place no man goes willingly.

[Ir0npanda]

Why is everyone making this so complicated?

Just do what they did in the Warhammer online MMORPG. They had the best shield system

Wielding a shield gives you a set chance to block outright any hostile attack, shot, or spell, on an entirely separate roll before the normal roll for that attack or spell.

Say base chance is X% by shield type. This is boosted by shields with enhancement bonuses as well as class levels with proficiency in the relevant shield type, skills improcing shield use, and shield feats.

The shield roll is reduced by the relevant competence level of the attacker with his chosen mode of attack, be it physical or magical.

Basically a high level and skilled barb or fighter or whatever would be able to block nearly any attack or spell from a enemy so low level that he doesnt get xp from them.

Meanwhile a much higher level attacker could penetrate his blocking with the same ease. But he still has to roll the normal ht roll after winning the block roll.

An attacker of roughly equal skill in his attack method to the barb or fighter's shield skill would have a fair chance of being blocked or bypassing the shield.

[bobthe6th]

So... adding a second roll to every attack roll against a guy with a shield is simpler? The reason MMOs get away with that sort of thing is they are on computers, and it is just another added line of code.

Also, it is adding a % chance to miss... this is known as increasing your AC. Every point is roughly equivalent to a 5% boost. This is effectively reduced by 5% for every point of bonus to the attack roll. you end up subtracting the attack bonus from the AC, and rolling a d20 against it. Complicating it past that is the madness of blur and such crazy effective defensive boosts.

edit: Yes, this is the idea with AC. As you go up in level, your AC goes up due to various boosts. Shields are part of that. A normal wolf won't hit a 5th level fighter in full armor.

Parrying is madness, and over complicates the system.

[Ir0npanda]

So... adding a second roll to every attack roll against a guy with a shield is simpler? The reason MMOs get away with that sort of thing is they are on computers, and it is just another added line of code.

Also, it is adding a % chance to miss... this is known as increasing your AC. Every point is roughly equivalent to a 5% boost. This is effectively reduced by 5% for every point of bonus to the attack roll. you end up subtracting the attack bonus from the AC, and rolling a d20 against it. Complicating it past that is the madness of blur and such crazy effective defensive boosts.

It is only superficially similar to boosting AC additively.

Being a separate roll means it always provides a separate, set chance for defence, which is precisely the mirror of how another weapon gives a separate, set chance to deal more offensive damage

Furthermore it provides protection against spells, which itself would give physical characters options against things they would normally be powerless against, effectively improving class balance

In Warhammer Online, using a greatweapon was accepting being a pincushion in exchange for dealing lots more damage. Using s&b was about defending yourself very well at the real cost of lower damage

That game had the best archetype balance of any rpg i have ever played

[bobthe6th]

It is only superficially similar to boosting AC additively.



Being a separate roll means it always provides a separate, set chance for defence, which is precisely the mirror of how another weapon gives a separate, set chance to deal more offensive damage


But two handing is just adding damage. It is boosting damage additively, as you would say. Also a separate roll is broken, as every miss chance granting ability would explain. If you want something more complicated then that, you just get back to AC...



Furthermore it provides protection against spells, which itself would give physical characters options against things they would normally be powerless against, effectively improving class balance


any spell it makes sense to block is using a touch attack. This boosts defense against them by increasing touch AC.



That game had the best archetype balance of any rpg i have ever played

but was again, a online game. Online games have endless computational power. I honestly love the combat system of Masters Of Magic. Every attack is a 30% chance of a hit, and most units have like 2+ attacks. most normal units attack is squads of 4-8, and attack all at once. This would mean every attack takes 70+ die rolls... utterly unfeasible in physical play.

[Kane0]

What about adding STR as a bonus to AC when using a shield, just like you add Dex with armor? Smaller shields would only allow a max of +1 or +2 but bigger ones allow +3 or +4 of your STR bonus to apply to (Touch) AC?

[bobthe6th]

What about adding STR as a bonus to AC when using a shield, just like you add Dex with armor? Smaller shields would only allow a max of +1 or +2 but bigger ones allow +3 or +4 of your STR bonus to apply to (Touch) AC?

That would mean the same range as normal shields, with a huge required strength. So basically it would mean trying to convince the str 18 fighter to use a tower shield rather then deal +2 damage on every swing. I also see shield blocking as a mix of str and dex, str to hold the shield and dex to block incoming attacks.

[AugustNights]

I like the idea of Shields providing an evasion-like ability. I have not seen a lot of thought or writing on parries in D&D 3.X however, and I am curious as to why you state that they are so hazardous.

[bobthe6th]

There is a reason you don't. People have tried, and it explodes every time.
Mostly they tend to add a roll to every attack, and additional book keeping.

generally they are run them as opposed attack rolls, you are adding a roll for a marginal benefit. Even more then that, they tend to have AOO like rules for how many you can make per round.

I just really prefer the simplified version of defense AC represents. Though I agree with the scaling class based AC bonus system, with armor as DR.