Gestalt Build Help [3.5]

[Sugashane]

So I played a Diplomancer-based build in a high optimization game and everyone had a blast with this characters and their own. So our DM wanted to kick things up a notch and now we're starting a gestalt campaign, also very optimized. When we pulled our base role out of the cup, I got the "Face" role again, to the cheers of my group. lol

I've never made a high-op gestalt, but I've been toying around with it and have some ideas (4d6 rolls for attributes, drop lowest reroll 1s once)

Half-elf
Bard-1 (UA Varient)/Pal of Freedom-3/Warlock-x/Eldritch Theurge-10//Marshal-1/Binder-1 (Naberius)/ Sha'ir-X

That was just the first build I have started toying with, but I am pretty sure the skill-monkey is also going to be my forte as well, so I was thinking of taking out Sha'ir and Eldtrith Theurge and adding cloistered Cleric and Eldritch Disciple.

Toyed with the ideas of a Factotum dip, Incarnate dip, or even Edrtich Knight and Abjurant Champion if I go arcane. We don't do do multiclass penalties, can dual progression on one side at a time, no cheese to get caster level over current level, and any creature is good to go, as long as the level adjustment is paid off. Pretty wide open game really.

Anyone have some opinions on how to make this build as optimized as possible? CHA will have to be the first stat but with the rolling we will be doing all stats should be respectable. We do a lot of roleplay interactions with this DM as well as challenging battles, and we will start at level 5. I know literally nothing about psychic builds though, so if you add a class with that please let me know what main abilities I need to read up on.

Thanks playground!

[Sugashane]

Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-X//Paladin/Monk, picking up Ascetic Mage and Ascetic Knight

Warlock 20// Artificer 20 Build whatever custom gear desired. Could even do Barbarian-1 (Lion Totem variant)/ Warlock- 19// Artificer 19/ Chameleon-1 for the pounce with eldritch glaive and a floating feat for item creation


No one has any ideas?

[A_S]

Why are you picking up Binder without HFW? For that matter, why are you making a Warlock without HFW at all?

You can get double Eldritch Blast by advancing Warlock (or a PrC that advances Warlock) on one side of a gestalt, and Enlightened Spirit on the other side.

Eldritch Theurge almost certainly triggers the "combo class" ban in gestalt...check with your DM to see if it's actually allowed.

*edit* Pounce doesn't work with Eldritch Glaive. It's not a full attack; it's an invocation cast as a full round action that grants you a number of touch attacks equal to the number of iterative attacks you would get on a full attack. That means it can't be used with basically any melee abilities.

If you want to be a glaivelock, I'll work on a build that might suit you.

[Sugashane]

Why are you picking up Binder without HFW? For that matter, why are you making a Warlock without HFW at all?

You can get double Eldritch Blast by advancing Warlock (or a PrC that advances Warlock) on one side of a gestalt, and Enlightened Spirit on the other side.

Eldritch Theurge almost certainly triggers the "combo class" ban in gestalt...check with your DM to see if it's actually allowed.

*edit* Pounce doesn't work with Eldritch Glaive. It's not a full attack; it's an invocation cast as a full round action that grants you a number of touch attacks equal to the number of iterative attacks you would get on a full attack. That means it can't be used with basically any melee abilities.

If you want to be a glaivelock, I'll work on a build that might suit you.

For the Diplomancer build Binder not only would heal the point of Con from HFW but the other abilities are very useful. Taking 10 on a Diplomacy check even when rushed or threatened in only one round is massively useful. Being able to use Persuasive Words 2 times every minute can be wonderful in roleplay and social settings. And Disguise Self at will has kept me out of trouble with guards and merchants countless times. As for the warlock, I enjoy the class and with him being the face of the group, Beguiling Influence works wonders. After that, I really just like the Imbue Item ability, which is where the idea for Warlock//Artificer build came from.

Thank you for the correction on the eldritch glaive. I simply misunderstood that, and thankfully didn't present it to my DM for approval.

We already have two people working on being the meat shield and melee damage output, I just wanted to be able to be proficient in a gestalt setting if I needed to be in battle. We are allowed dual progression classes, but only taking a level in one at a time, and no cheese to be able to cast higher than our actual total levels. He lest us because he throws so much at us. Also, we can't be evil, so no Ur Priest for example.

Really I want to be the face of the party, while also being able to be the skill monkey, be it by actual ranks in skills or magical abilities. Our DM uses a LOT of wizards/mages against us, so if saves are poor we die, hence the desire for Paladin of Freedom for a few levels.

I'm open to any build you think you would like to put out. I was just trying to make as SAD PC as possible, but with the rolls we will get to do our attributes will likely be very high.

[A_S]

Okay, here's my quick-and-dirty attempt:

-----

Human

1 - Warlock 1 // Paladin of Freedom 1 - Mortalbane, Combat Reflexes
2 - Warlock 2 // Paladin of Freedom 2
3 - Warlock 3 // Binder 1 - Weapon Focus (melee touch attack)
4 - Warlock 4 // Marshal 1
5 - Warlock 5 // Knight of the Sacred Seal 1
6 - Mindbender 1 // Binder 2 - Mindsight
7 - Warlock 6 // Knight of the Sacred Seal 2
8 - Warlock 7 // Uncanny Trickster 1
9 - Ruathar 1 // Binder 3 - Maximize Spell-like Ability
10 - Hellfire Warlock 1 // Binder 4 - Improved Binding (b)
11 - Hellfire Warlock 2 // Binder 5
12 - Hellfire Warlock 3 // Binder 6 - Quicken Spell-like Ability
13 - Uncanny Trickster 2 // Binder 7
14 - Uncanny Trickster 3 // Binder 8
15 - Warlock 8 // Legacy Champion 1 - Empower Spell-like Ability
16 - Legacy Champion 2 // Binder 9
17 - Legacy Champion 3 // Binder 10
18 - Legacy Champion 4 // Binder 11 - Favored Vestige, Rapid Recovery (b)
19 - Legacy Champion 5 // Binder 12
20 - Legacy Champion 6 // Binder 13

-----

9d6 base EB damage, 10 effective levels of HFW for 20d6 extra damage, full 20 BAB and Combat Reflexes for max Eldritch Glaive use. Cha to saves, and any one ability grouping (probably Cha for diplomancy) via Marshal. Binding up to 8th level (max) vestiges for extra utility goodness (and, of course, ability healing). Quicken/Maximize/Empower SLA for when you just need to put out a whole lotta damage in one round.

No bloodlines, no sketchy dual-advancement classes, no advance-warlock-and-take-a-level-in-it-at-the-same-time cheese, no PrC-on-both-sides levels. Just a good old-fashioned Shadowrun-style bucketload of d6's.

*edits*

If you're going diplomancer, take Motivate Charisma instead of Motivate Dexterity and get your Cha bonus on all your social skills twice.
Whoops, forgot Binder bonus feats. Improved Binding way earlier! Yay!
...and, damn, can't quite get 20 BAB. 19 will do.
Okay, I promise I'm done fiddling now. Dropped Marshal dip, back up to 20 BAB, and Human Paragon goodness.
...I lied. Now it gets Marshal again for better diplomancy, Knight of the Sacred Seal for better Cha SAD, and 8th level binding. Dropped the familiar and Enlightened Spirit, so lost 1d6 of EB. Worth it.

[Sugashane]

Okay, here's my quick-and-dirty attempt:

-----

Human

1 - Warlock 1 // Paladin of Freedom 1 - Mortalbane, Combat Reflexes
2 - Warlock 2 // Paladin of Freedom 2
3 - Warlock 3 // Binder 1 - Weapon Focus (melee touch attack)
4 - Warlock 4 // Marshal 1
5 - Warlock 5 // Knight of the Sacred Seal 1
6 - Mindbender 1 // Binder 2 - Mindsight
7 - Warlock 6 // Knight of the Sacred Seal 2
8 - Warlock 7 // Uncanny Trickster 1
9 - Ruathar 1 // Binder 3 - Maximize Spell-like Ability
10 - Hellfire Warlock 1 // Binder 4 - Improved Binding (b)
11 - Hellfire Warlock 2 // Binder 5
12 - Hellfire Warlock 3 // Binder 6 - Quicken Spell-like Ability
13 - Uncanny Trickster 2 // Binder 7
14 - Uncanny Trickster 3 // Binder 8
15 - Warlock 8 // Legacy Champion 1 - Empower Spell-like Ability
16 - Legacy Champion 2 // Binder 9
17 - Legacy Champion 3 // Binder 10
18 - Legacy Champion 4 // Binder 11 - Favored Vestige, Rapid Recovery (b)
19 - Legacy Champion 5 // Binder 12
20 - Legacy Champion 6 // Binder 13

-----

9d6 base EB damage, 10 effective levels of HFW for 20d6 extra damage, full 20 BAB and Combat Reflexes for max Eldritch Glaive use. Cha to saves, and any one ability grouping (probably Cha for diplomancy) via Marshal. Binding up to 8th level (max) vestiges for extra utility goodness (and, of course, ability healing). Quicken/Maximize/Empower SLA for when you just need to put out a whole lotta damage in one round.

No bloodlines, no sketchy dual-advancement classes, no advance-warlock-and-take-a-level-in-it-at-the-same-time cheese, no PrC-on-both-sides levels. Just a good old-fashioned Shadowrun-style bucketload of d6's.

*edits*

If you're going diplomancer, take Motivate Charisma instead of Motivate Dexterity and get your Cha bonus on all your social skills twice.
Whoops, forgot Binder bonus feats. Improved Binding way earlier! Yay!
...and, damn, can't quite get 20 BAB. 19 will do.
Okay, I promise I'm done fiddling now. Dropped Marshal dip, back up to 20 BAB, and Human Paragon goodness.
...I lied. Now it gets Marshal again for better diplomancy, Knight of the Sacred Seal for better Cha SAD, and 8th level binding. Dropped the familiar and Enlightened Spirit, so lost 1d6 of EB. Worth it.


With the Eldritch Glaive being touch attack 19 or 20 BAB is going to hit near anything. Build looks solid, I'm going to try and map out the feats and skills to see how well it turns out. Are there any other specific vestiges than Naberius you believe I should go straight for?

And are feats like Power Attack still able to be used with Eldritch Glaive? 3.5 points lost is really nothing for the benefits from Motivate Charisma, I agree.

Thank you for the build!

[A_S]

No, Power Attack doesn't work with Eldritch Glaive, for the same reason as pounce (it's not really an attack, it's a spell-like ability that smells suspiciously attack-ish). However, again for the same reason, you can use it with the meta-SLA feats. So, when you really need to dish out the damage, you can, instead of Power Attacking, throw down a Quickened Maximized Empowered Eldritch Glaive (a swift action) and then a Maximized Empowered Eldritch Glaive (a full-round action) in a single round. Should get the job done.

Naberius is the one you're going to keep bound all the time for diplomancy, so I'd make him your KotSS patron vestige. The other vestige you get can be assigned to whatever utility goodness you need that day. Looking through the vestiges, I see:

Orthos gives at-will 50% concealment, which is amazing.
Tenebrous grants access to the excellent Flicker mystery.
Shax gives Freedom of Movement, which is never bad.
Marchosias gives +16 to hide/MS, if you ever need to sneak anywhere.
Focalor and Chupoclops both have a pretty awesome debuff auras.
Dantalion lets you read minds, which has a lot of roleplay potential for a party face.
Balam gives you rerolls, including on skill checks. Never blow a crucial diplomacy check again!
Zceryll (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) gives Summon Monster VII.
Andromalius gives Sneak Attack, which does work with Eldritch Glaive (due to the weaponlike spell rules).

Binders are not low on good options.

*edit* Just noticed there's an alignment problem: KotSS requires non-chaotic, but Warlock requires chaotic or evil. Solutions, in order of ascending inconvenience:

Hope your DM lets you waive alignment requirements (lots do).
Be evil and use Paladin of Tyranny.
Drop KotSS and just take 2 more levels of Binder.

[dspeyer]

Let's see. You need lots of skills, cha to stuff, glibness, improvisation, guidance of the avatar, good defences...

{table=head]class|class|feat|goodies
bard|paladin (of freedom)|able learner (H), iron will|
bard|paladin (of freedom)||cha->saves
bard|paladin (of freedom)|extend spell|
bard|paladin (of freedom)||
bard|cleric||
bard|cleric|persist spell|glibness
bard|cleric||guidance of the avatar
incantrix|factotum|still spell (I)|
incantrix|swordsage|adaptive style|concentration for saves, sense motive for ac
incantrix|swordsage||persisted glibness, wis->ac
sublime chord|factotum||
incantrix|factotum|rapid metamagic, quicken spell (I)|brains over brawn
incantrix|factotum||irresistible dance
incantrix|factotum||
incantrix|factotum|ascetic mage, reach spell (I)|cha->ac
incantrix|factotum||improved metamagic
incantrix|factotum||cunning surge
incantrix|swordsage|trickery devotion, chain spell (I)|5th level maneuvers, improved metamagic
sublime chord|swordsage||
sublime chord|swordsage||[/table]

Every level has 6+int skills, d8 or better good will and reflex saves. The first 7 levels have good fort saves too.

Probably the biggest goody here is persisted glibness. +30 to all bluff checks.

Also note that GotA+Improvisation means +30 to any skill check. Handy for those rare dc 100 bluff checks ("you are a potato") or those things you just didn't expect to need ranks in (profession: nuclear technician)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This should be a nice change of pace from your last character, played as something of a redeemed ruffian:

Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), combined with Frostblood Half-Orc from Dragon Magic if possible. Tundras are considered deserts, after all. Use the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny p150 to qualify for things as though he's a human instead of as an orc. Throw on Unseelie Fey from Dragon Compendium if possible, and take the winter trait.

1. Bard 1// Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon) 1, ACFs: Inspire Awe (DM), Bardic Knack (PH2), Spellbreaker Song (CM)
2. Bard 2// Fighter 1
3. Bard 3// Fighter 2
4. Bard 4// Zhentarim Fighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) 3
5. Bard 5// Fighter 4
6. Bard 6// Dread Witch 1, Haunting Melody (ECS) instead of Suggestion
7. Bard 7// Marshal 1, Motivate Charisma
8. Bard 8// Nightmare Spinner 1
9. Binder 1// Zhentarim Fighter 5
10. Binder 2// Fighter 6
11. Sublime Chord 1// Fighter 7
12. Sublime Chord 2// Fighter 8
13. Dread Witch 2// Zhentarim Fighter 9
14. Dread Witch 3// Binder 3
15. Dread Witch 4// Binder 4
16. Dread Witch 5// Binder 5
17. Nightmare Spinner 2// Binder 6
18. Nightmare Spinner 3// Binder 7
19. Nightmare Spinner 4// Binder 8
20. Nightmare Spinner 5// Binder 9

Up to two traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm), definitely include Unnatural Aura from Dragon 356, p89, which gives you -2 to interactions with animals and vermin, but +2 Intimidate and +2 DC for spells you cast with the [fear] descriptor. Another good choice is Quick, considering you can spend one of those Fighter feats on Improved Toughness to negate its drawback.

Two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), I'd pick Bravado from Dragon 328 (can't benefit from Dodge bonuses to AC, can't use the withdraw action) and City Slicker in Dragon 324 (-4 to Handle Animal, Kn: Nature, and Survival, requires Survival as a class skill).

Gain the feat Menacing Demeanor via the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel for 3,000 gp without having to spend a feat on it.

Feats:
1. Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Nymph's Kiss (BoED), Melodic Casting (CM)
2. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer (MMIV)
3. Fell Frighten Spell (LM), Weapon Focus
4. Skill Focus: Intimidate
5. Weapon Specialization
6. Imperious Command (DotU), Haunting Melody
9. Ancestral Relic (BoED) for a custom runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4)
10. Melee Weapon Mastery
12. Practical Metamagic (RotD): Fell Frighten, Improved Critical
15. Invisible Spell (Cityscape), Improved Binding
18. Defensive Sweep

Skills: Max ranks in Intimidate for sure, probably at least five ranks in Balance, Jump, and Tumble, and plenty of Cha-based skills.
Skill Tricks (CS): Never Outnumbered for sure, probably anything with Balance or Tumble as a prerequisite.

Items:
Ancestral Relic: Custom Runestaff (BoED, MIC), explained in the link above.
Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW) for no other reason than it's awesome.
Magical armor with the Fearsome property (DotU).
Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC).
Mask of the Matriarch (DotU).
Shadow Cloak (DotU).
Magical Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer with the Sudden Stunning property (DMG2).

Binder: Chupoclops, Focalar, and Vanus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060407a) are your best choices.

Read this guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) and realize just how awesome this character will be.