Building a weapon

[kabreras]

Hello Playground,

Does anyone have an idea on how to enchant a weapon so it proc a spell on hit with a % chance ?

I actually want a dagger that proc flesh to stone with a 20% chance on hit and i cant figure how to make that...

Ideas ?

[Jeraa]

There is no way to do it withing the rules. You have to make something up.

[mregecko]

Honestly, I'd treat it not as a weapon but as a Wondrous Item that is use-activated, where use = hitting someone with a weapon.

So it'd be the base price of the item (sword, mwk sword, +1 sword, whatever), plus spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp... So (6)*(11)*(2000)=132,000

Since it's only going to work some percentage of the time, I'd give it a houserule of the same percentage of the total cost... so 20% of 132k = 26,400.

I think that's totally fair, considering you still have to hit (non-touch) AC, and it's an unpredictable result.

I may also throw on extra cost if you want to put this in conjunction with another weapon enchantment (as per the rules of enchanting items with multiple effects).

Please note, this is not Rules-As-Written, it's just what I would do as a DM. There are no defined rules for this (that I know of).

[Darrin]

I'd probably do something like... Calculate the use-activated cost of a dagger of flesh to stone, and then calculate 20% of that.

6 x 11 x 2000 = 132,000. 20% = 26,400 GP. So add that to 2000 GP for a +1, or eyeball it as a +4 enhancement.

(Somebody check my math... AFB.) [Edit: Nevermind, mregecko got it.]

[Jeraa]

Calculating it at 20% of the cost is a bad idea. That is exactly the same as a 1/day item of flesh to stone. An item that casts flesh to stone on 20% of all attacks will function far more then 1/day.


5 x 9 x 2000 = 90,000. 20% = 18,000 GP. So add that to 2000 GP for a +1, or eyeball it as a +3 enhancement.

(Somebody check my math... AFB.)

Flesh to Stone is a 6th level spell, not a 5th level spell.

[mregecko]

Calculating it at 20% of the cost is a bad idea. That is exactly the same as a 1/day item of flesh to stone. An item that casts flesh to stone on 20% of all attacks will function far more then 1/day.

But you know when an item that functions 1/day is going to go off. An item that goes off 20% of the time is almost a cursed item, because it's performance is unpredictable -- it could fail you when needed, or when you're hoping it won't biff the guy you want to interrogate it could go off.

But yes, maybe 20% isn't exactly the right number, but it's as good a starting point as any.

Somewhere between 20% and 100% of the cost for a use-activated item, consult your DM for his/her opinion.

[Humble Master]

The you roll for the proc if the dagger touched the target (a touch attack) or drew blood (a normal attack)? If its touch then that would be an extraordinarily powerful weapon if it can 'kill' things instantly around 20% of the time. I would price it as an artifact myself.

[mregecko]

The you roll for the proc if the dagger touched the target (a touch attack) or drew blood (a normal attack)? If its touch then that would be an extraordinarily powerful weapon if it can 'kill' things instantly around 20% of the time. I would price it as an artifact myself.

An artifact? Hardly.

It doesn't insta-kill things 20% of the time, it casts a mid-level wizard spell at the minimum DC 20% of the time.

Minimum INT/CHA to cast the spell is 16 (+3), spell level is 6, so that's a DC 19 Fort save. Not really that scary at mid-levels (where this would come into effect).

For an example, look at Eyes of Petrification. This is basically the same item, but without charges / limited use (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#eyesofPetrification). Definitely not an artifact.

But probably more then $26k. Maybe price it more around the $50k mark (like a +1 vorpal blade).

[SowZ]

There were rules for it, but it slips my mind what book/dragon issue it is from. Basically, the rules went as follows.

Weapon starts as a d4 damage, x2 critical weapon of any standard damage type. It costs one point to increase a damage step, increase the threat range, or increase the critical multiplier.

You get one bonus point for it being a light one handed weapon and one bonus point for it being a simple weapon. You get two points if it is two handed light weapon or one handed non-light weapon and an extra two if it is a martial weapon. You get three points if it is a two handed weapon and an extra three if it is exotic.

EDIT: My answer is irrelevant. 'S what I get for only reading the title and skimming everything else very quickly.

I'd also price it at 1/3 as opposed to 1/5. Say you get a full attack and can hit someone with two attacks on average. It will go off every other full attack. That's pretty good.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I once gave a mid-level villain a shortsword shaped like an icicle. It was a +1 Shortsword that cast Flesh to Ice on any living flesh that touched it. That means the wielder had to wear a glove or fall victim to his own weapon. I'm pretty sure I priced it at use-activated, for Spell Level (5) x Caster Level (9) x 2,000 gp, plus a +1 Shortsword, for 92,310 gp. The DC of an item is always 10 + spell level + 1/2 caster level, or DC 19 in this case. Still incredibly dangerous.

[Flickerdart]

Using an item that has a 20% chance to do something in combat is for chumps. No, what you do is keep the item in your pack, and pull it out when you need to cast the spell on something out of combat. Need to build a castle, but don't want to spring for bricks? Find some commoners, Flesh to Stone at will. Need to put down an enemy without killing them, while their saving throws are massive? Flesh to Stone at will while your party wallops them with nonlethal.

[Than]

A +1 Keen Dagger has a 20% critical chance. Why not add the flesh to stone to trigger on a successful critical hit? Charge him the 4302 gp for the +1 Keen Dagger and then the price of a continuous/use activated spell on top of that. Of course, they target of the critical should still get the normal save to fight off the petrification.

[Greenish]

A +1 Keen Dagger has a 20% critical chance. Why not add the flesh to stone to trigger on a successful critical hit?A keen dagger has 20% chance of critical threat, not of successful critical hit.

[Than]

As DM I would rule 20% of all hits causing flesh to stone completely "whacked out". I would allow it to trigger on a critical hit like thundering and _____ burst enchantments. Since a dagger only has a 10% critical threat, making it keen would give the dagger a 20% critical threat.

Therefore it would have a 20% chance to proc, and so that the world isn't overrun with stoned monsters we make it only on successful critical hit and allow the usual save as if the spell was being cast from a scroll.

Coup de grace, of course, would also trigger the critical hit. I'd probably allow it on death attacks too. Just not sneak attacks.

[Greenish]

As DM I would rule 20% of all hits causing flesh to stone completely "whacked out".Then say so. It is your math I object to, not balance.


I would allow it to trigger on a critical hit like thundering and _____ burst enchantments. Since a dagger only has a 10% critical threat, making it keen would give the dagger a 20% critical threat.

Therefore it would have a 20% chance to procNo, it wouldn't.

[SowZ]

As DM I would rule 20% of all hits causing flesh to stone completely "whacked out". I would allow it to trigger on a critical hit like thundering and _____ burst enchantments. Since a dagger only has a 10% critical threat, making it keen would give the dagger a 20% critical threat.

Therefore it would have a 20% chance to proc, and so that the world isn't overrun with stoned monsters we make it only on successful critical hit and allow the usual save as if the spell was being cast from a scroll.

Coup de grace, of course, would also trigger the critical hit. I'd probably allow it on death attacks too. Just not sneak attacks.

If it goes off on a successful critical threat, it has a 20% chance to go off. But if it succeeds on a successful critical hit? Creatures tend to have an AC of, oh, what, CR plus 12-14? Characters will typically have a to hit of maybe 5+(1.5xcharacter level) maybe? Let's assume, fighting level appropriate encounters, you miss less than a third of the time.

You have a 20 percent chance to threaten and maybe a 70 percent chance to critical. That's about a 14 percent chance to critical.

Also, it has a Fortitude save of 21. Fort is easily the most common high save for creatures and people to have and minimum this could be made is level ten. Even if the creatures you fight have a Fort Save that fails 70% of the time, (unlikely,) you are still flesh to stoning on less then 10 percent of your hits. More likely the Fort Save is something like 10 or 15. You'll probably Flesh to Stone 5-7% of the time.

It doesn't work on creatures that Vorpal doesn't work on AND it allows a Save that will only get easier to make as you fight stronger creatures. For this reason, I would price it less than Vorpal. Maybe a +3 enhancement? Or a flat +38k?

[TuggyNE]

It doesn't work on creatures that Vorpal doesn't work on AND it allows a Save that will only get easier to make as you fight stronger creatures. For this reason, I would price it less than Vorpal. Maybe a +3 enhancement? Or a flat +38k?

+3 sounds not unreasonable. Large (>>5000gp) flat bonus costs seem a bit weird, so I'd avoid that.

[Kuulvheysoon]

+3 sounds not unreasonable. Large (>>5000gp) flat bonus costs seem a bit weird, so I'd avoid that.

Prismatic Burst (+30 000gp, MIC) says hi.

[TuggyNE]

Prismatic Burst (+30 000gp, MIC) says hi.

Hrng. I stand by my opinion in the face of contrary examples! :smallyuk:

But eh. Maybe it's not so bad.

[Siosilvar]

No, it wouldn't.

Yes, it would. An effect that triggers only on a critical hit (assuming a 17-20 threat range) is exactly the same chance as 20% of all hits causing the effect.

In 3.5, confirming critical hits, Power Critical and similar effects excepted, is exactly identical to rolling an extra die to see if you crit after hitting. Don't believe me? Do the math:


Assume, for simplicity, a 19-20 threat range and a 50% chance to hit (and thus confirm).

Critical confirmation: 10% are threats, 40% are normal hits. 50% of threats (5% of all attacks) are confirmed crits. So you wind up with 45% normal hits and 5% critical hits.

Additional roll to check: 50% of attacks hit, 10% of those are critical hits (so 5% of all attacks). Also ends up 45% normal hits and 5% critical hits.

Since the two rolls are independent, it literally doesn't matter what order you do them in. So a 17-20 crit range is identical to a 20% chance to proc a crit if you hit.

Now, attaching the effect to critical hits means you always get the bonus damage from the crit instead of occasionally doing it on a normal attack, but the chance is the same, assuming you have the same crit range as the % chance to cause the effect.

[TuggyNE]

Yes, it would. An effect that triggers only on a critical hit (assuming a 17-20 threat range) is exactly the same chance as 20% of all hits causing the effect.

In 3.5, confirming critical hits, Power Critical and similar effects excepted, is exactly identical to rolling an extra die to see if you crit after hitting.

Also leaving out "only hit on a 20" and "only miss on a 1". Which means it's a decent fudge for most cases, but sometimes it's a bit off. Full calculation here (http://anydice.com/program/207c/transposed); ignore the useless 0 figures, and divide the "vs X AC" figures by 10 to get the fudged results. (It still feels wrong, somehow, but I can't figure out how.)