Competent, core, melee, mundane builds?

[ahenobarbi]

Are there any competent, core-only, mundane (non-caster based) melee builds about level 9? Only one I know is Horizon Tripper...

[Humble Master]

A grapple build might work. Get Barbarian 1, Fighter 8 with the Improved Grapple Feat, Spiked Armour and a light weapon (I personally favor the Kurkri). Grapple people and attack with your light weapon as your spiked armour deals damage.

[limejuicepowder]

There's even less reason to have more than 2 fighter levels when playing core-only: you're going to run out of good feats to take very quickly. By not taking more barb levels, you're giving up skill points, hit points, uncanny dodge, and multiple rage uses (remember, no extra rage feat).

If you just want to Hulk-smash and one extra tactic, straight barb is the way to go. Half-orc barb 9 still gets 4 feats, plenty for power attack, combat expertise, improved trip, and cleave or spiked chain prof (whatever your taste is - I'd go cleave).

If you want to multi-tactic, like tripping AND grappling, then 2 fighter levels are needed. 'Sides that, stay away from fighter.

[A_S]

Probably the pick of the litter: Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415).

[Magnera]

I had fun with a slightly magical character in one of my most previous games. It was a strong heart half ling ranger6/Fighter2. The character in question used his riding dog mount and dual wielded two lances. While our DM did fiat that I could attack with both during a charge, a single handed mounted build is rather powerful.

[prufock]

There are a number of tactics you could take, some of which have been mentioned already.

- Tripper/lockdown (horizon tripper, or simply glaive/spiked chain controller)
- Mounted charger (fighter levels plus paladin or ranger can work for the special mount abilities - though they aren't really "mundane," they aren't primarily spellcasters)
- Grappler (barbarian or even a couple levels of monk can work well with fighter bonus feats)
- Two-weapon fighter (ranger/fighter/rogue for bonus damage)
- Two-handed power attacker (fighter, barbarian, paladin)
- Skill monkey + sneak attack (rogue for stealth and skills)
- Face/diplomancer (rogue/paladin with high cha - or bard, but that probably doesn't count as "mundane," especially when you get glibness)
- Crit-fisher (18-20 crit weapons plus improved crit and get lots of attacks - works best combined with two-weapon or two-handed style)

[Hiro Protagonest]

A grapple build might work.

No.

...

What, did you want me to explain why?

[prufock]

No.

...

What, did you want me to explain why?

Depends on level range, really. Grappling CAN be a useful tactic, especially if you're playing core-only, mundane-only.

[Karnith]

Depends on level range, really. Grappling CAN be a useful tactic, especially if you're playing core-only, mundane-only.
Even at level 9, you're basically just praying that you don't come up against anything bigger than you, or that your caster friend will take pity on you and use Polymorph or something so you're not totally useless.

And that's not even getting into the whole "Freedom of Movement wrecks your day" thing.

[prufock]

Even at level 9, you're basically just praying that you don't come up against anything bigger than you, or that your caster friend will take pity on you and use Polymorph or something so you're not totally useless.

And that's not even getting into the whole Freedom of Movement thing.

That's why I said "depends on level range." With caster support it changes the scope of things (hello first-level spell enlarge person), but in, say, an E6 game it can work. Not every caster can have gaseous form/grease. And against other mundane melees it can shut down their main tactics.

[Karnith]

That's why I said "depends on level range." With caster support it changes the scope of things (hello first-level spell enlarge person), but in, say, an E6 game it can work. Not every caster can have gaseous form/grease. And against other mundane melees it can shut down their main tactics.
No, I get that, but the OP is asking specifically for advice about a level 9 character. And unless a caster is going to spend his actions at the beginning of every combat casting Enlarge Person/Polymorph/something similar on the guy, grappling really just isn't going to work against a good percentage of CR 9+ monsters.

[limejuicepowder]

That's why I said "depends on level range." With caster support it changes the scope of things (hello first-level spell enlarge person), but in, say, an E6 game it can work. Not every caster can have gaseous form/grease. And against other mundane melees it can shut down their main tactics.

It is still, at best, a support tactic though. Devoting huge resources to grappling (not sure how you would even do this in core...there's just not that much to take) is probably a bad idea, since players are so often at a size disadvantage and/or lacking in natural weapons.

Even for the niche enemies (not too big, don't have crazy natural weapons that will eviscerate you, no spells/abilities that render grappling moot), you're still most likely better off swinging for the kill. Basically, it would only be good for characters that don't want to kill their opponents for some reason.

[prufock]

No, I get that, but the OP is asking specifically for advice about a level 9 character.

Ah, I missed that requirement, thanks.

I don't know if the OP meant the whole game is mundane-only (low/no magic) or just this particular character. If it's only this character, spellcasters have plenty of options to negate grappling starting at about level 5.

[Humble Master]

Looking at the rules in more detail I found something better than grapple. which was in retrospect stupid idea. Take 1 level of Monk and then 8 level of Fighter. Use a quarterstaff as a weapon. Take Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff) and Weapon Specialization (Quarterstaff) and Greater Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff). At this point your base attack bonus is +8/+3 and your Furry of blows attack (including feats) is +10/+5/+3. Now two hand wield you quarterstaff, power attack, and then furry of blows. You will deal (1d6+1.5 Str bonus+8) x 3. Assuming Your Str is 22 (rolled natural 18 +2 from half orc +2 from level up ability score increases) you will deal on max 69 damage in one round of furious pounding. A lot more with magic items.

Other than that Horizon Tripper is the only really good core mundane build I know.

[prufock]

Looking at the rules in more detail I found something better than grapple. which was in retrospect stupid idea. Take 1 level of Monk and then 8 level of Fighter. Use a quarterstaff as a weapon. Take Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff) and Weapon Specialization (Quarterstaff) and Greater Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff). At this point your base attack bonus is +8/+3 and your Furry of blows attack (including feats) is +10/+5/+3. Now two hand wield you quarterstaff, power attack, and then furry of blows. You will deal (1d6+1.5 Str bonus+8) x 3. Assuming Your Str is 22 (rolled natural 18 +2 from half orc +2 from level up ability score increases) you will deal on max 69 damage in one round of furious pounding. A lot more with magic items.

I'm not sure I'm getting the math here. Where are you getting the additional +8 damage? How many attacks are landing if you're power attacking with flurry?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Flurry of Blows progresses with monk level, not character level. You'd get +8/+8 out of it, plus whatever bonus the quarterstaff has (+2 at most), minus Power Attack penalties (since you said +8, I'm going to assume -4, so... +6/+6), plus strength (Flurry of Blows doesn't work while wearing armor, so you need high dex and wisdom. There goes you 18 base strength).

[Phelix-Mu]

Flurry of Blows progresses with monk level, not character level. You'd get +8/+8 out of it, plus whatever bonus the quarterstaff has (+2 at most), minus Power Attack penalties (since you said +8, I'm going to assume -4, so... +6/+6), plus strength (Flurry of Blows doesn't work while wearing armor, so you need high dex and wisdom. There goes you 18 base strength).

Or rather, it would be best to have high Dex and Wis. Many builds sacrifice some aspect to optimize another aspect. I agree that a monk should improve those stats, but its hardly necessary if you are just looking for single round damage output.

There is no reason to stick with fighter until 8, though. Monk 2/Ftr 2/Barbarian 5 sounds more useful, but there is some alignment hijinks and order of classes taken to deal with. Rage and bigger HD will tend to make up for monk, which can soak some of the blowback from low AC (for a couple rounds...).

[Killer Angel]

Are there any competent, core-only, mundane (non-caster based) melee builds about level 9? Only one I know is Horizon Tripper...

HT is very nice, but the real goodies start from lev. 11...

[magwaaf]

I had a game where i played a barbarian8/tempest4 that was pretty sweet. didnt get to finish him out because we died due to in party betrayal, but up until that point he was an absolute monster in melee.

[Ceaon]

Are there any competent, core-only, mundane (non-caster based) melee builds about level 9? Only one I know is Horizon Tripper...

Short answer: No.

Long answer A: Most PHB melee classes are front-loaded. So try, for instance, Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Rogue 5/Ranger-or-Shadowdancer 1, or Paladin 2/Monk 2/Fighter 2/Rogue 3.

Long answer B: A mounted (paladin/fighter or barbarian/ranger) build can work, although it is not as efficient as it is outside of core and dependent on the terrain you are in.

[Roclat]

I dunno what the best is, but if I was given the same rules what I think I would try is:

5rog/4fighter
Improved Initiative
Weapon Focus (Scythe)
Weapon Specialization (Scythe)
Improved Critical (Scythe)
Power attack
cleave
great cleave

imp initiative to get the first attack with extra dice, specialization x4 is pretty good on a crit. be tempting to go falchion instead to get the big range, but specialization x2 isn't as strong.

Probably half-orc, don't think there's another feat that interests me to start.

[Eldariel]

The Barbarian-builds are all fine; Barb gets Rage which is nice and some other stuff. Two-four levels of Fighter for feats and 2 of Ranger for Rapid Shot (so you're not completely useless at range). Dragon Disciple is also okay (+4 Strength for 1 BAB is a net positive trade, especially for a tripper) but requires Sorcerer to enter.

You want Improved Trip anyways. The feat is just really good. Power Attack, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes should form the core chassis of any Core warrior, Horizon Tripper or not. You generally want to take Weapon Focus eventually simply because there's nothing else that really does anything. I tend to run Spirited Charge and mounts on all my core warriors to be able to move and attack.

The different Figures of Wondrous Power, Leadership and such all offer reasonable alternatives for acquiring mounts that don't get AoOd to death first time you run into a Dragon.

[Seharvepernfan]

It's hard to beat a barb/fighter with a halberd, improved trip, combat reflexes, great cleave, and enlarge person (maybe a level of cleric to get it yourself?). Regardless, if you're using a two-handed weapon, take quick draw at 6th. That's when you get an iterative attack, which you can use to quick draw a throwing weapon and attack somebody at range after you used your first attack (get a +1 spellstoring throwing axe with inflict serious wounds in it).

Also, if you are enlarged, and are being attacked by a horde of weak enemies, let three or four of them get up to you, then take your AoO on the next one, great cleaving the bunch, then rinse and repeat.

Don't forget to ready attacks against charges.

[ahenobarbi]

What about races? I see most people suggest half-orc but wouldn't pure orc (with sunglasses :smallwink:) be better? 2 more str seems good, Wis and Cha penalties don't seem too harmful for such a character...

[Gwendol]

Yes.

Orc barbarian 9 (Wolf totem)
Feats:
Power attack
Imp trip (Wolf totem bonus)
Cleave
Track (Wolf totem bonus)
Combat reflexes
Imp initiative

You can pick up two levels of fighter for bonus feats (stand still & great cleave comes to mind), but really, this is good enough.

[Roclat]

or gnoll if you don't mind an LA+1
+4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha
2d8 Racial HD
Feat
+1 natural armor
Bark at people and lick yourself...

[Spuddles]

Even for the niche enemies

Niche enemies... like 90% of NPC humanoids that can't afford a 40k gp item?

[Gwendol]

Grappling can be a great way of limiting an enemies action. The barbarian is most likely to pull it off due to great strength and BAB, and HP since he's likely take as much damage as he gives when grappling monsters. But it makes the (single) monster relatively easy to hit, and it may not be able to threaten others on the team. Still, if you face more than one enemy, just killing them with a weapon is likely the better option.

[Karnith]

Grappling can be a great way of limiting an enemies action. The barbarian is most likely to pull it off due to great strength and BAB, and HP since he's likely take as much damage as he gives when grappling monsters.
Well, unless he comes up against Huge or larger enemies, a very real possibility at 9th-level (and beyond). When that happens, his whole shtick is useless without size-boosting magic.

[Soranar]

Core only

ok, the best melee race is going to be a regular orc (+4 str, no LA)

the most versatile character will probably be Saph' horizon tripper (hard to make with an INT penalty so you might prefer playing a human).

You can make a normal mounted charger without ranger or paladin levels, there are plenty of rules in core for obtaining a mount by buying one and training it but a paladin's mount will always tend to be better

A mounted charger also doesn't need pounce to be effective (though it certainly helps) so I'd probably favor that option for a level 9 character

I know you said melee but, oddly enough, an archer character can work ok in core : hank's energy bow is core if I remember right

Ranger 9 would let you get the archery feats you need, you also get plenty of skillpoints and your limited spellcasting isn't bad. You also get evasion at level 9 which isn't bad.

[Muktidata]

The keys to melee in core:
Orc
Power Attack
Reach Weapons
Mounted Fighting (I mean just buy a cheap mount and ride it using a lance - dont use feats)
Archery - Get a Composite Longbow for your pre-rage strength
Tripping - very optional - situationally decent in core
CL1 potions of Enlarge Person
Leadership

[Eldariel]

I know you said melee but, oddly enough, an archer character can work ok in core : hank's energy bow is core if I remember right

It's not.


Ranger 9 would let you get the archery feats you need, you also get plenty of skillpoints and your limited spellcasting isn't bad. You also get evasion at level 9 which isn't bad.

The only Archery feat you need is level 2. Manyshot isn't very useful outside specialized builds.

[Gwendol]

Well, unless he comes up against Huge or larger enemies, a very real possibility at 9th-level (and beyond). When that happens, his whole shtick is useless without size-boosting magic.

Use the bear totem barbarian and gain +4 to grapple checks when raging (which stacks with all other grapple bonuses). You don't need to win the grapple, just last long enough for the others to take out the enemy. I'd say hold the beast down 2-3 rounds is enough.

[Karnith]

Use the bear totem barbarian and gain +4 to grapple checks when raging (which stacks with all other grapple bonuses). You don't need to win the grapple, just last long enough for the others to take out the enemy. I'd say hold the beast down 2-3 rounds is enough.
Well, for one bear totem isn't core, but more importantly you literally cannot successfully grapple (hold) Huge creatures if you are Medium. So either you spend a not-insignificant chunk of your money getting Enlarge Person permanencied on yourself (and just pray that you never get hit with dispel magic or an AMF), or you need it cast on you every combat.

[Gwendol]

Quite right, I misread your previous post. "Core" is relative in that some include the SRD (with psionics/UA material), and some don't. In any case, straight (non-totem) barbarian orc is still a highly competent core melee build. Add fighter levels to taste for increased versatility (feats, really).

Edit: I've never suggested this to be a tactic for every combat! Where did that come from?

[Spuddles]

Well, unless he comes up against Huge or larger enemies, a very real possibility at 9th-level (and beyond). When that happens, his whole shtick is useless without size-boosting magic.

So then he wallops them with his greatsword. He still has power attack and two hands.

Against most humanoid opponents, a raging orc barbarian is going to lock them down. Even against huge opponents, the difference in grapple checks is only 10 to 15 (30 str, 9 BAB, 4 feat), which means opponents can't safely take the -20 penalty to count as not grappling. That opens opponents up to sneak attack. And with an ECL9 party, it's fairly reasonable to expect that, as most huge monsters are 3 or 4 CR above them, there won't be much else to that encounter.

Furthermore, you could expect that huge monsters might not be all that common and when faced with one, the barbarian just drinks a potion of enlarge person prior to combat. That's only 50gp- pocket change compared to the loot on a glabrezu. That nets another +5 to grapple.

[Karnith]

Edit: I've never suggested this to be a tactic for every combat! Where did that come from?

So then he wallops them with his greatsword. He still has power attack and two hands.
Right, sorry if I've been overly-focused on why grappling is bad. My point is just that grappling as a tactic is so easy to shut down that it's not really worth focusing your build on (at least not at this level). If it's incidental, then that's fine (and can be quite good), I just wouldn't devote a lot of resources to it.

Even against huge opponents, the difference in grapple checks is only 10 to 15 (30 str, 9 BAB, 4 feat), which means opponents can't safely take the -20 penalty to count as not grappling.Since you can't hold Huge (or larger) opponents as a Medium character, the monster will never be grappled to begin with.

And with an ECL9 party, it's fairly reasonable to expect that, as most huge monsters are 3 or 4 CR above them, there won't be much else to that encounter.There are actually quite a few CR 9 and 10 monsters that are huge or larger, even in core. Granted that I have only rarely fought (or made my PCs fight) colossal animated objects, for example, but they're there.

[Gwendol]

Agreed, any respectable build intending to grapple once in a while should have a vial of enlarge person at hand.

[Spuddles]

Huh, I thought grappling was a "larger than 2 size categories," not inclusive. That just means you have to drink more potions of enlarge person.

It looks like elementals, a handful of animals, hydras, and oozes are the only things that are CR10 that show up as huge size or larger. How often does a campaign consist of only oozes, animals, hydras and elementals? Most games I've played in have had a disproportionately large number of giants/undead/humanoids of size small to large.

In core, assuming a rogue in the party, grappling is a pretty solid route, as opposed to tripping. Tripping needs 13 int, which is harder to get if you go optimal orc barbarian. Grappling isn't as hard to get. At level 9, power attack, cleave, improved unarmed strike, and improved grapple is a fairly decent build. What other options do you have for feats? Great Cleave? Weapon Focus? Spirited Charge? Improved Critical?

I think grappling gets a pretty hard rap, but for maybe the first 12 levels, it's fairly decent. Not as good as tripping if wolf totem and/or higher point buy are on the table, but still usable. I wouldn't really go for it if there were more options available, plus I can never remember the goddamn grapple rules. They're so convoluted.

[Eldariel]

In core, assuming a rogue in the party, grappling is a pretty solid route, as opposed to tripping. Tripping needs 13 int, which is harder to get if you go optimal orc barbarian. Grappling isn't as hard to get. At level 9, power attack, cleave, improved unarmed strike, and improved grapple is a fairly decent build. What other options do you have for feats? Great Cleave? Weapon Focus? Spirited Charge? Improved Critical?

Grappling's good situationally; against single opponents of appropriate size who haven't cast Freedom of Movement (it's 10 min/level and a level 4 spell available to both Druids and Clerics so it's not that obscure). However, against a number of opponents, the fact that you're flat-footed vs. everyone but your grapple target is generally really bad if any enemy poses attack capabilities.

Also, Dimension Door is available to Wizards and it isn't that hard to cast in Grapple (level 9 Wizard with 12 ranks in Concentration and +2 Con needs to roll 6 or less to cast Dimension Door), so generally vs. them I'd prefer to maximize my damage instead.

[Spuddles]

Grappling's good situationally; against single opponents of appropriate size who haven't cast Freedom of Movement (it's 10 min/level and a level 4 spell available to both Druids and Clerics so it's not that obscure). However, against a number of opponents, the fact that you're flat-footed vs. everyone but your grapple target is generally really bad if any enemy poses attack capabilities.

Also, Dimension Door is available to Wizards and it isn't that hard to cast in Grapple (level 9 Wizard with 12 ranks in Concentration and +2 Con needs to roll 6 or less to cast Dimension Door), so generally vs. them I'd prefer to maximize my damage instead.

Yes, I am very familiar with the arguments about why grapple is bad. But in my experience, it's rare to be fighting exclusively huge and larger monsters and tier one casters. It's really not as situational as it's commonly made out to be, if only because the situations where it is no good are less common than the monster manual would suggest.

You left out warriors, adepts, rogues, barbarians, rangers, fighters, bards and monks. Of course, if all your opponents are swarms of clerics and wizards, grappling will be bad. But I've never actually played in a game where every opponent was a druid or wizard, or bigger than huge. I don't think I've played in many games where there were a substantial number of "ungrappable" enemies- things too big or too mobile to grapple. The problem is almost always that grappling something really removes your offensive actions if there are more than a couple opponents on the field.

I've found play through any module of levels 1 to 10, and against most opponents, grapple will work just fine. Well, unless it comes with energy drain or something.

I guess what I am getting at, is this. As far as combat actions beyond "I attack" and "I full attack", grapple is really the only useful thing for core only melee to add to their repertoire, besides trip. And trip has that stupid int 13 requirement.

[Eldariel]

I guess what I am getting at, is this. As far as combat actions beyond "I attack" and "I full attack", grapple is really the only useful thing for core only melee to add to their repertoire, besides trip. And trip has that stupid int 13 requirement.

Trip doesn't lose massive amounts of damage like Grapple does though, which is a key difference. If you can get Improved Grapple for near-free (e.g. Monk dip), go for it, but aside from that I'd rather use Tripping simply because Grapple; you're facing multiple Warriors/Fighters/Rangers/Giants/whatever, if you grapple one of them you get high Power Attack hits to the back from the others if they have any kind of coordination at all. Which is not good since your AC is tanked so low that you're probably taking a beating and quite possibly dying.

Grapple (from PCs without Improved Grab/Swallow Whole/etc.) is at its best against lone opponents. Now, how often do you expect to actually face single Fighter/Barbarian/Warrior/Whatever who's a big enough threat that his threat rating warrants Grapple and he's actually grapplable? Usually the few lone martial enemies we've run into in these levels are either big as all hell, or very strong and well-equipped; usually both. If not, they're very rarely a threat. Even just one guy full attack Power Attacking your flat-footed back tends to hurt like hell so I'd be very wary of grappling when anyone is in a position to do that.


Trip is just like Grapple except without the drawbacks, pretty much. Grapple means your damage is cut down to your unarmed damage. Trip, you still do your two-handed Power Attack damage. Grapple leaves you vulnerable to other enemies. Trip on the flipside makes counterattacking very hard for the opponent you tripped making counterattack actually more difficult to execute. 13 Int is painful but losing out on all those drawbacks? Priceless.

[Spuddles]

Oh no, I agree, trip is superior in every way. But if you are going with biggest baddest barbarian, which means an orc with an 18 in str, you won't be able to afford 15 intelligence unless the pointbuy is spectacular.

In which case, two feats to get the ability to do damage when unarmed (hey it comes up sometimes) and have a non-"I attack" option can be worth it. Especially if you have a rogue buddy for that juicy sneak attack damage.

Trip and flank works just as well, if not better, but that means tanking str by about six points.

[Rubik]

Oh no, I agree, trip is superior in every way. But if you are going with biggest baddest barbarian, which means an orc with an 18 in str, you won't be able to afford 15 intelligence unless the pointbuy is spectacular. Spending a bit of gold on a headband of intellect seems like a good investment here.

[Gwendol]

No, because you get tripping "for free" instead of having to spend gold on INT and waste a feat. Grapple you can do anyways, just be really strong. If you go first your opponent is flatfooted which means you can grapple safely without having to worry about an AoO. See the build I posted.

Spuddles is right, the point if grappling isn't to do damage, it's to keep the target in place and present the team with a (relatively) harmless and easy target.

[Spuddles]

Spending a bit of gold on a headband of intellect seems like a good investment here.

Again, it really depends on point buy. If you can start out with a 13 int, then the 4k for the headband is totally worth it. If you have to dump int to 6, then it may be awhile before you're tripping.

I suppose you can always just carry a reach weapon that lets you make trip attacks, but that's only goof if you're fighting things without reach.

[Gwendol]

If you go for tripping, and can't get the feat without the pre-req, I suggest going horizon tripper rather than orc barbarian. You risk ending being nor here or there.

[Spuddles]

You can still make trip attacks with a trip wepaon that has reach, like a glaive, and avoid AoOs.

Of course, huge monsters tend to have more than 5 feet of reach.