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Mnemnosyne
2013-04-01, 07:48 PM
I've been thinking about how to make permanent, undispellable physical changes to a character, things that would normally come about more from an Instantaneous spell than a Permanent one. This is primarily for purposes of appearance; body sculpting, fashion, that sort of thing. It's not meant to give actual additional abilities, but who knows, maybe it would.

Perhaps there's a more straightforward, simple way to do it that I don't know about. An instantaneous spell that has the correct effects, or some other permanent, undispellable means. If so, would be glad to learn about it. But, assuming there's not...

Polymorph any object can easily be used to make a Permanent physical change to a body, if the race of the original subject and the target form are the same - the idea is purely to make the character taller, shorter, slimmer, fatter, increase or reduce the size of features like breasts, butt, thighs, give more sculpted muscle appearance, or change the face. But these changes are forever subject to being dispelled, and they are suppressed in an area of antimagic.

So, I think to myself, what if we combine flesh to stone with polymorph? Polymorph the subject into the desired appearance, then flesh to stone them. What happens when the polymorph expires, or is dispelled? The polymorph presumably can't return them to their original form, because they're now a statue. Hell, they're not even a valid target for normal polymorph at this point. Does that mean that the statue is unaffected when polymorph expires, so what you have is a statue of the polymorphed form? Seems reasonable. And what's the result if we then cast stone to flesh on the statue? Does it change back into the original, pre-polymorph character, or does it change back into the original race/type/etc, but with the same shape as the statue?

To be honest, I don't fully expect RAW to cover this one way or the other. I'd be a bit surprised if someone can explain it in a way that there's a clear answer found within the rules, since personally I can't find any interpretation of the rules that actually answers these questions. Assuming lack of RAW, I'm looking for other people's opinions on what the result would be; I'd like to see if others agree with my line of reasoning or not.

Now, so far, this isn't being abusive or trying to stretch the mechanical effects too much, we're just looking for a way to reshape bodies without granting any new abilities of any kind. But assuming it does work to reshape bodies cosmetically, we then have to ask, what happens when we try to add physical features? If we use the same process, but change the person into something with claws, or wings? Would the person retain the ability to fly, or would the stone to flesh restore the 'added' parts as otherwise inert lumps of flesh, so the person is now stuck with huge fleshy wings that have no muscles or ability to lift?

TuggyNE
2013-04-01, 07:59 PM
But assuming it does work to reshape bodies cosmetically, we then have to ask, what happens when we try to add physical features? If we use the same process, but change the person into something with claws, or wings? Would the person retain the ability to fly, or would the stone to flesh restore the 'added' parts as otherwise inert lumps of flesh, so the person is now stuck with huge fleshy wings that have no muscles or ability to lift?

The three most discouraging words in practical op are in full effect here: Ask. Your. DM.

Jack_Simth
2013-04-01, 08:18 PM
The three most discouraging words in practical op are in full effect here: Ask. Your. DM.
And then some, yes.

You might consider Flesh to Stone + Stone Shape/Fabricate/Transmute Rock to Mud(+ a mould + Dispel Magic) + Stone to Flesh... but then, you're still looking at very heavy DM adjudication, as it's unclear what the designer intent is for such things.

However, I suspect that if you try to keep it to the level of what Disguise Self would give you, many DMs will probably let it fly.

Mnemnosyne
2013-04-01, 08:34 PM
The addition of mechancial effects is really just an add-on, my main query was to gather opinions and thoughts as to whether this makes sense as a method of making cosmetic changes. I think the 'inert lumps of flesh' makes for a reasonable explanation, to me, as to why the procedure can't give new abilities, so that it retains sense while also not giving permanent undispellable changes effectively for free.

I'm more hesitant on options that rely on altering the shape of the statue because I feel like those might often be more correctly interpreted as 'damage' to the statue, as explained in the flesh to stone spell.

Kane0
2013-04-01, 09:13 PM
I'd probably rule that the actual expiration of the polymorph occurs as soon as it is able, IE you remain with your polymporph-induced changes while in stone form but as soon as you are fleshified the polymorph then expires and you revert to your original cosmetic state.

But why not just use permanency for polymorph plastic surgery?

Edit: This thread gives rise to an interesting thought:
Child: Daddy, where do babies come from?
Daddy: Well, first I carve the baby out of stone, then I use my magic book of spells to make the stone into flesh like us!

Phelix-Mu
2013-04-01, 09:32 PM
I'd opt for trying to talk the DM into some kind of stone to flesh on stone of the appropriate shape/appearance, and then Graft Flesh to add the flesh to an existing body. You might need some additional Heal checks or something to connect blood flow, but hey, healing magic is very cool.... I think ice to flesh might work for this too.

I've also considered house rules on high-level Heal usage that would allow advanced surgery.

Nettlekid
2013-04-02, 07:48 AM
Tangentially related, I've often wondered about how it says that if you use Stone to Flesh on a statue, you get a corpse. What happens if you Raise Dead on that corpse? Who is it? What memories do they have? If it's of a person, do they act like that person, or are they basically mindless? What if you Awaken them?

Cruiser1
2013-04-02, 10:06 AM
I'd probably rule that the actual expiration of the polymorph occurs as soon as it is able, IE you remain with your polymporph-induced changes while in stone form but as soon as you are fleshified the polymorph then expires and you revert to your original cosmetic state.
This is the closest to how RAW works. I'm an Orc. Polymorph me into a Nymph, now I'm an Orc in a Nymph's body. Flesh to Stone, now I'm a statue of a Nymph. Polymorph expires, but doesn't affect the Nymph statue. Stone to Flesh, and I revert from a Nymph statue to my original flesh and blood Orc form.

But why not just use permanency for polymorph plastic surgery?
Because it can be dispelled, and goes away in an antimagic field.

Tangentially related, I've often wondered about how it says that if you use Stone to Flesh on a statue, you get a corpse. What happens if you Raise Dead on that corpse? What if you Awaken them?
Raise Dead does nothing, because there's no soul that can agree to return to a body it once inhabited. Awaken effectively calls in a new soul, similar to awakening animals or plants.

Rubik
2013-04-02, 10:40 AM
Might I suggest that you use Eschew Materials with Ice Assassin or Simulacrum to create a new body designed how you like, then manifest Mind Switch and kill the original, or True Mind Switch to instantaneously swap?

It'd be expensive, but possible, and unlike with Polymorph Any Object, you don't have to worry about Intelligence changes.