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Jack_Simth
2013-04-01, 08:11 PM
So, I was noodling diplomacy (and diplomancy) around in my head, and a thought popped in: What if it's either a save-or-lose effect or an opposed skill check (at the defender's option)?

When you use diplomacy on someone, first you must have a language in common with them (or be able to communicate in detail with them through other means, such as telepathy or a Tongues spell), you force them to pick one of two options:
1) Ignore: The target must make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your ranks in diplomacy (NOT YOUR MODIFIER) + your charisma modifier). If the target fails, the target is affected as by a Calm Emotions spell (Extraordinary, but treated as a mind-affecting effect for mechanics interactions). If the target fails by five or more, the target is affected as by Charm Monster (extraordinary, but treated as a mind-affecting Charm effect). If the target fails by ten or more, the target is affected as by Dominate Monster (extraordinary, but treated as a mind-affecting Compulsion; does not grant the mental link that the spell would). If the target saves, there is no effect. If the target fails, the duration of the effect is 1 round per level of the attacker for a Calm, 1 minute per level of the attacker for Charm, and 1 hour per level of the attacker for Dominate.
2) Negotiate: Diplomacy can be opposed by Sense Motive. In this case, both the attacker and the defender roll their skill checks. If the defender wins, then the defender can make an immediate Diplomacy attack against the attacker. If the attacker wins by less than 10 points, then the target is affected by Calm Emotions (as above). If the attacker wins by 20 or more, then the target is affected by Charm Monster (as above). If the attacker wins by 30 or more, then the target is affected as Dominate Monster (as above).

Thoughts?

Edit:
Action: Under normal circumstances, making a diplomacy check takes ten rounds of concentrated talking, during which you can take no other actions. If you're in a hurry, and have to make a very fast Diplomacy check, you can make one as a full-round action. If the defender chooses to Ignore, then the defender gets a +5 bonus to the will save. If the defender chooses to Negotiate, then the defender gets a +10 bonus to the Sense Motive check.

If you have two or more parties competing for influence on a target (referred to as the True Target), all parties (except the True Target) make opposed Diplomacy checks in a one hour time frame. The winner makes an attempt on the True Target as normal, however, the winner's effective skill ranks for the diplomacy check is the winner's full normal skill ranks, or the amount by which the winner beat the next-highest roll, whichever is lower.

Razanir
2013-04-01, 09:03 PM
I suggest you look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9606632&postcount=2) for inspiration. It's the Giant's homebrew Persuasion skill

Jack_Simth
2013-04-01, 09:59 PM
I suggest you look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9606632&postcount=2) for inspiration. It's the Giant's homebrew Persuasion skill
I've seen it. Rant follows:It's got a mess of problems. While it mostly fixes diplomacy for diplomancers... it then *requires* everyone past moderate levels invest in diplomacy to get even expected requests out of their equals.

Seriously - take, say, a child asking his 10th-level cleric grandmother for a cookie. Intimate relationship (-10), neither risk nor reward (+0), Grandmother is 10th level (Base DC 25), and grandmother has a +5 (low, for 10th level) Wisdom modifier. Final DC? 20. That kid is going to need ranks to stand even a moderate chance.

You cannot give a castle to a Clerical order of any power (something that was done historically quite often) without being an experienced diplomat. It's a Fantastic deal (you're giving them a castle with no expectation of reward; that's good for a -10 to the DC), but you're facing the highest level in the group (say, 15), and the highest wisdom modifier in the group (probably 10), and probably no relationship (+0), so you're looking at a DC of 15+15+10-10 = 30. If you don't have a high Charisma modifier, you'll need 20 ranks to have an even chance of giving away a castle.

A 20th level Wizard can't get his equal-level lover to give him the time of day unless he's got a high Charisma and/or invests in Diplomacy. Seriously.
20th level target, Wis-10, Intimate relationship, neither risk nor reward: 15+20-10+0=DC 25.

And before you say "But you're not supposed to use the rules for things that are blatantly obvious!" (or similar) remember, part of Rich's reasoning for his fix was "I don't decide whether I want someone to be persuadable, I want a rule system that lets me determine it randomly." - oh yes, and the various examples I'm pulling? Rich pretty much has them as examples on his modifiers. "-10 Intimate: Someone who with whom you have an implicit trust. Example: A lover or spouse." (emphasis added). "+0 Even: The reward and risk are more or less even, or the deal involves neither reward nor risk. Example: A request for directions to someplace that is not a secret."

Really, while I agree with some of his premises, from my perspective, The Giant's fix is simply broken in the opposite direction; everyone is now required to invest in diplomacy to do even simple things socially. Oh yes, and there are still abuses that come pretty easily with The Giant's fix - it's a fairly simple matter for a mid-level diplomancer to amass an arbitrarily large army of low-level cannon fodder (1st level Wis-10 character, that you just met, offered a "Horrible" deal is DC 26; a level eight bard can pretty much take ten (11 ranks, +5 Charisma modifier); If he's a half-elf, that drops to about level six (9 ranks, +5 Charisma modifier, +2 Racial = +16); a half-elf with Negotiator and Skill Focus can be as low as level 3 and pull it off by taking ten (6 ranks, +2 Racial, +3 Charisma, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Negotiator, +2 Bluff Synergy=+18); someone who actually optimizes doesn't really need to take ten to make people die for him, and it's really easy to amass hordes of orcs).

So... I've seen it, and it doesn't satisfy, but thanks for trying.

Draz74
2013-04-01, 11:41 PM
So, I was noodling diplomacy (and diplomancy) around in my head, and a thought popped in: What if it's either a save-or-lose effect or an opposed skill check (at the defender's option)?
Hmmm, yeah, this is essentially what I've been planning to use as the basis for the social skills system in CRE8. (Originally inspired, I think, by the Duel of Wills minigame in Tome of Battle.) So I approve of the basic idea. I don't have a lot of specific ideas to contribute to your fix, though, since my fix also involves changing lots of other stuff. "Diplomacy" and "Sense Motive" aren't skills anymore. :smalltongue:


I've seen it.

And based on the grandma/cookie example you mentioned, I assume you've also read the Alexandrian's "fix" of Rich's fix of the Diplomacy rules? I consider it a marginal improvement, although obviously I'm still looking for better options. :smallsmile:

Jack_Simth
2013-04-02, 07:21 AM
And based on the grandma/cookie example you mentioned, I assume you've also read the Alexandrian's "fix" of Rich's fix of the Diplomacy rules? I consider it a marginal improvement, although obviously I'm still looking for better options. :smallsmile:
I hadn't seen it, no (just looked it (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/diplomacy-design.html) up (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/diplomacy-design.html)) although apparently I'd seen something written by someone who had seen it (or who had seen something written by someone who had seen it, or some other level of recursion of that statement).

But as you noted: Marginal improvement - it maintains many of the same issues. However, it's now DC 30 to mass-recruit disposable minions (horrible deal), if you're being honest about it and heading somewhere you're expected to find people who are willing to listen. Oh yes, and he put one of the synergies back, and removed the hit die portion of the DC from the check - which means your 5th level active diplomancer can now hire 10th level Fighters & Wizards for peanuts, rather than being limited to 1st-3rd level Fighters & Wizards.

Edit: Hmm... Half-elf Bard-1 (for the class skills)/Psion-1(Friendly Psicrystal off the bonus feat)/Warlock-1(Beguiling Influence) with Negotiator and Skill Focus(Diplomacy) as feats... +2 racial, +3 Psicrystal, +2 Negotiator, +3 Skill Focus, +6 ranks, +6 Beguiling Influence=+20 before Charisma. A modest (for the level) +4 Charisma modifier makes for a +24 modifier, able to make the DC 30 check by taking ten.