PHB 2 and DMG 2 for DnD 3.5. Any good?

[Kafana]

Seeing as how I've read both the original PHB and DM Guide from cover to cover, skimmed through three of the five monster manuals as well as played the core 3.5 system for about a year now, I feel that I've learned most of what the core rules have to offer (I obviously don't know every wondrous item, monster and spell, but the classes, rules and so on have been more or less mastered).

I was wondering - should I go from here to Pathfinder, or should I look into expanding the 3.5 system with the PHB 2 and DMG 2 books. I'd opt for the latter, seeing as how all the people I play with are familiar with the 3.5 system. So, are the books any good? Are the classes they add balanced enough? What are your thoughts regarding those two books? Do they offer much in terms of gameplay?

If not those than which? Oh, and I'd prefer general books, not ones that favor a certain class (such as the ones that favor arcane magic oriented classes).

[Duskranger]

I don't know anything about the DMG2 but the PHB2 adds two wonderfull classes to the mix.

The duskblade, a magical warrior and the Beguiler, enchantment and illusionmaster.

Both are good classes in my opinion and very nice balanced.

Edit: and the archetypes for some classes are sometimes usable (druid I am looking at you)

[HunterOfJello]

PHB2 has some good base classes in it. Notably, the Beguiler and the Duskblade. It also has a long list of very good feats. Many of the feats are intended for higher level characters, which is an interesting choice for the authors to take.

PHB2 is also really great for players hoping to flesh their character's backgrounds and personalities. It can give you a lot of good ideas and inspiration, in an area that's often difficult to fill in.

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DMG2 is great for DMs, but doesn't have a ton of crunch in it for player usage. It does have some good stuff at the end of the book, including item types, but it could be absent from a d&d book collection without missing too much.

~

Overall, owning both is great, but in a limited collection I would definitely grab the PHB2, but wouldn't require the DMG2 as a player. If you're a DM, then go ahead and grab the DMG2 for inspiration and general usage.

[Kafana]

Thanks for the tips. While I do enjoy playing the game, I'm looking at this as a DM. Seeing as how most of my players are new to DnD but have managed to grasp the basics I plan to expand on the 3.5 system this summer with them.

Any additional info regarding these two books (or any similar, general purpose and related to the 3.5 system) are more than welcome.

[supermonkeyjoe]

If I had to choose just one other book for character options it would most often be Players handbook 2, it expands all of the base classes from PHB1 with some useful options, adds a load of feats that help out mundane melee types, adds classes for those that want to be an arcane warrior (duskblade) or magical trickster (beguiler) plus the dragon shaman, and generally has a lot to improve on a core-rules game.

Dungeon masters guide 2 has some useful advice for DMs in the beginning but most of the actual rules content is... mediocre at best.

[Greenish]

Magic Item Compendium is a pretty great catch for most everyone, having all those wonderful toys to toss your PCs, or better yet, to their enemies.

[navar100]

PHB2 is worth it. New classes that are well received. New feats worth taking that give warrior classes some love. Introduces the concept of retraining to have established rules to allow players to tweak their characters, such as changing feats, when they find the choices they made aren't working out as they imagined. DMs could always fiat the change, but some people need to have a published work to reference. That's not an insult, merely a reflection of taste.

[Zaq]

PHB2 is great. Cool ACFs, cool feats, cool classes, cool spells. Just pretend the Celerity line doesn't exist (and maybe conveniently ignore Abrupt Jaunt as well, from the ACF section) and you'll have fun.

DMG2 isn't worth it. There's pathetically little crunch, and the non-crunch material isn't generally very profound or useful. It's probably a YMMV book, but I didn't get much out of reading it.

[WhatBigTeeth]

PHB2 is great. Full of *stuff* like interesting classes, feats and spells and formalized guidelines for rebuilding characters to different degrees, deeper canned NPC creation templates. Its character description sections and teamwork rules probably won't see any use, but there's enough meat to it that it's very useful to have.

DMG2 is mediocre. It's fairly well written and it does have some meat to it in the forms of whole new rulesets for apprenticeship, affiliations, contacts, crowds and a few elements of equipment. So in theory, it's a book that *should* be interesting, and that *should* apply to most games. But its meat just isn't that useful. Of the copy my group shuffles around, I think the one chapter that's seen use in multiple games is the one on equipment - and for those purposes, the book's pretty conspicuously lacking compared to magic item compendium and the arms and equipment guide.

[Glimbur]

I like Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, Magic of Incarnum, and Magic Item Compendium. Also Spell Compendium, but remember that adding more spells makes spellcasters better. The good news is that it makes ranger/paladin casting better too.

Honestly, most of the Completes are piles of PrCs, some of which are interesting. The power level of them varies. They're alright for fine-tuning a concept but I wouldn't add them next.

The Fiendish Codices are kind of interesting for the background/setting. There's also some stuff for PC's in one of them... the second, I think.

PHB 2 is pretty neat. DMG 2 has some magic items that don't seem very well thought out, and is otherwise pretty meh.

[137beth]

If you are gradually expanding their experience, start by adding PHB2. I'd say next go with the complete series (mainly, you are looking to expand feats/ACFs for the base classes, and add in a few non-crazy new classes.) You could pass on ToM. I don't really like ToB very much, although a lot of people on these forums do (oddly, I've never met anyone in real life who is a fan of ToB, but almost everyone I talk to on the web likes it. Weird.)

DMG2 has almost nothing for players, so you can get it for your own inspiration without the players knowing:smallwink:

[Grod_The_Giant]

PHB2 is one of my favorite 3.5 books for player content. Possibly my favorite if we discount subsystems.

[Gavinfoxx]

If I had to choose...

PHB II
Magic Item Compendium
Spell Compendium
Tome of Battle

are some of the better D&D books.

[Togath]

Since you mentioned pathfinder, I feel I should mention most of it's content is available free and online(and legally) in it's srd, so you could actually try both more 3.5 stuff and it, if you're willing to look through PF's srd for the PF stuff.

[T.G. Oskar]

I join the chorus of voices praising the PHB II.

The Beguiler and the Duskblade are pretty awesome, the Dragon Shaman has interesting bits but could get some more love (if you're using the Dragon Magic supplement, for example), and the Knight combines some aspects of warrior and bard, making it a decent class. The alternate class features provides some decent options, which range from insanely good (Wizard ACF, Warmage ACF) to balanced (Druid Shapeshift ACF) to nice options (Paladin ACF, Monk ACF) to...erm... (Swashbuckler ACF). It's a mixed bag, but the general inclination is that they're decent. The feats are simply awesome, including loads of boosts to just about every class (Combat Form feats, Robilar's Gambit, an actual SnB line, Arcane Thesis). The spells include some of the few non-Core broken spells (Celerity!!!), but otherwise are pretty creative nonetheless (the Mega Man spells, for example). The other awesome set of rules involves the retraining rules. Some hidden gems involve the teamwork tactics and the standard adventurer's kit (I generally give that kit to all of my players pretty much for free, or at least lead them to that page and let them spend the money).

The DMG II, on the other hand...I'll have to dissent on a few of the comments here. Most of the equipment in the DMG II was ported into the Magic Item Compendium, but some remain specific (the Vest of Legends is for Bards what the Monk's Belt is for Monks, and wasn't ported to the MIC; the Elemental Power abilities can be pretty awesome). The rules there are a mixed bag, but they're meant for NPCs mostly. The Apprentice/Master system can be nice (particularly if you're looking for class skills or a pseudo-cohort), for example. The "advanced" NPCs are a joke, on the other hand (ranging from 6 to 20, but they're really unoptimized). The special traits for NPCs range from "meh" to "this is a joke, isn't it?": it ranges between Poisonlaced (detect poison at will and immunity to poison), to guardian spirit (+2 deflection bonus to AC), to Lifemate (you're bonded with an NPC with which you can do some spell-like abilities once per week or per month), to Divinity (access to domain granted power and a +2 sacred/profane bonus to one of three kinds of checks), Arcane Adept (able to cast a custom choice of arcane spells as SLAs with CL equal to character level and properly scaling DC), Past Life (the equivalent of Heroism plus the benefit of a class feature from a PHB class as if it were at 11th level), Aberrant Limbs (extra arms or extra legs with actual functions) and Vestigial Twin (how's action economy exploit sounds for you?)...and did I mention that players can get them if the DM allows them (although with some serious LA?).

Both books have teamwork benefits, but the DMG II ones seem to be better than the PHB II ones; then again, it depends on whether you'll spend the time considering the teamwork benefits. The benefits of the DMG are nice, though: Superior Flank, for example, lets you treat an enemy flanked by two of your companions as flanked by ALL of your companions; Spell Barrage imposes a cumulative penalty on Reflex saves, Friendly Fire Evasion makes you impervious to spells cast by people of the same team if they succeed on their Reflex saves. On the other hand, the way DMG II handles organizations pales in comparison to how the PHB II treats guilds: the former is just a load of fluff, while the latter adds some tasty bits of crunch. In fact, it actually was used for latter supplements (the Complete Champion books, namely).

Both have nice benefits, but it takes a lot of digging in one of the books rather than the glimpse on the other. If it helps: I purposedly bought the Player's Handbook II, while I got the Dungeon Master's Guide II secondhand.