How would you do this dungeon level.

[killem2]

I will scan the map tonight for you all to get a better idea of what I'm doing but there are a series of rooms.

There are no walls (that anyone can tell), you walk along perfect stone path ways, where one would see a normal walls is a complete fog. (Permanent fog like spell not determined yet)

At each dead end, there is a rune. It will teleport them to some other area. Each rune has one other rune. there are 15 pairs of runes (14.5 techincaly see below) and only ONE of them leads them to the next stair way. They might even find it quick, they may not.

Some runes lead to ceilings where if they step on it, it will drop the, 20 ft to take damage, some will put them under water, one will put them into a room that is surrounded by the stone walls, but they are illusionary and they could walk through it.

The keeper of this entire dungeon that goes deeper and deeper into the earth ultimatley is a high powered mindflayer that is extremely mad, and very arrogant and extremely intelligence and loves riddles and tricks to test the intellect of those who dare venture forth.

Basically is is a series of portals that just put people in a different area but they won't really have any indication of where they are, with out a lot of trial and error.

[IamL]

So are you asking how I, if I were playing, would do this dungeon level? Or are you asking for help on the design?

[XiaoTie]

Reminds me of a dungeon in the Eye of the Beholder game for the SNES (and some others, IIRC).

I remember it being very annoying and rage inducing, so you might, at first, ask yourself if your players would like /have fun going through it.

If you truly think they'd like it, try adding some creatures at some portals, so at least that could help them remember where they are after a random portal sending them around (kinda like grim landmarks).

[Shining Wrath]

How are your artistic skills? Because the shape of the runes ought to mean *something*. If it's purely random then the arrogant genius mindflayer isn't testing anything.

I do like the idea of permanent walls of fog rather than stone. It's nice fluff, although I don't see the point. My character would suggest (after a few runes) tying a rope to someone and trying to walk through the fog.

[killem2]

How are your artistic skills? Because the shape of the runes ought to mean *something*. If it's purely random then the arrogant genius mindflayer isn't testing anything.

I do like the idea of permanent walls of fog rather than stone. It's nice fluff, although I don't see the point. My character would suggest (after a few runes) tying a rope to someone and trying to walk through the fog.

I suppose I am asking what ways I can reward my players for completing it, (like this post would grant MAJOR exp rewards)

I would also just like opinions if it seems to complex for d&d time frames. Since we spend most of the time fighting monsters, I would like to grant them the same exp so it doesn't feel like time wasted.

My group is also, poor at note taking and quite often forgets what has happened even in the last session, sometimes I am nice and I remind them, but we've been playing for over a year on this run of character so I think it is time for them to be accountable.

I also don't know much about mindflayers, or really fluff about crazy trickster like characters, I'm just out here winging it lol.

[Shining Wrath]

I suppose I am asking what ways I can reward my players for completing it, (like this post would grant MAJOR exp rewards)

I would also just like opinions if it seems to complex for d&d time frames. Since we spend most of the time fighting monsters, I would like to grant them the same exp so it doesn't feel like time wasted.

My group is also, poor at note taking and quite often forgets what has happened even in the last session, sometimes I am nice and I remind them, but we've been playing for over a year on this run of character so I think it is time for them to be accountable.

I also don't know much about mindflayers, or really fluff about crazy trickster like characters, I'm just out here winging it lol.

Mindflayers are one of those "gotta be evil" monsters, inasmuch as they view humans as cattle and eat their brains. Unless you want to create a vegetarian one, which could also be hilarious. They have strong psychic powers and can dominate people so can have lots of human minions.

It seems you are trying to get your PCs to take notes and be a little more careful about what they do. So what you could do is have a set of runes that have to be pressed *in the right order*, with clues at each rune describing how to find the next one and what it looks like. Sort of like a treasure hunt. And guess what happens if they press a rune out of order?
1) Fight something with no treasure
2) Walls shift (they are made of fog, after all) and they have to find their way back to the last correct rune, press it again, and then find their way to the correct rune on the new map.

Each rune correctly pressed gives treasure, heals some damage for the person pressing the rune, and gives XP. The amount goes up with each success.

The last rune, of course, supplies a nice big treasure - after they fight the MiniBoss.

[Deadline]

Each rune correctly pressed gives treasure, heals some damage for the person pressing the rune, and gives XP. The amount goes up with each success.

You may want to avoid this, or make it very clear that the rune doesn't always produce treasure/healing each time it is pressed. Because if you give the players a button that heals them or spits out treasure when they push it, they are going to push it repeatedly.

[Shining Wrath]

You may want to avoid this, or make it very clear that the rune doesn't always produce treasure/healing each time it is pressed. Because if you give the players a button that heals them or spits out treasure when they push it, they are going to push it repeatedly.

Only on the first correct push. After that it's inert. Unless they have to go back to it due to pressing an incorrect rune, in which case all it does is supply the clue to the next rune; no treasure, no XP, no healing. OK, maybe it mocks them.

[killem2]

Only on the first correct push. After that it's inert. Unless they have to go back to it due to pressing an incorrect rune, in which case all it does is supply the clue to the next rune; no treasure, no XP, no healing. OK, maybe it mocks them.

I like the idea of mocking them haha.

The idea behind this is, I'm trying to create an exhustive process to the mind with out having to apply statistical penalties. They are gonig to come across long since dead corpses that have gotten lost in the maze of runes and gave up hope. I may even have sound effects in the back ground going off and use my computer to play certain sounds. Sorta reverse role playing almost. Really getting them immersed into this area to let them know, this is strange.

I don't know if anyone has read my entry on the BBEG thread, but they will enter an area where there are animated dead bodies that come to life and sing and dance and give them clues ZoZo style (Any final fantasy 3 (us version) fans here?) and lead them deeper and deeper into this place.

I didn't really intend on their being ANY fighting in this level. Just pure thinking, and I plan on looking over their sheets to make sure all knowledge checks are somethign they can actually do.

Getting them to appreciate note taking is a goal here, but not the only one and certainly not the most important. I want it to be fun, challening, and hopefully, this will force their rather large group to split up and look for clues.

This group is made up of 7 players, and 2-3 companions. (if some of the other players show up that have since stop coming then we'll have nearly double this many players)

[Sith_Happens]

...

So what you're saying is, you made the Silph Co. building, but more so.

http://i.imgur.com/keMbh.jpg

[Shining Wrath]

I like the idea of mocking them haha.

The idea behind this is, I'm trying to create an exhustive process to the mind with out having to apply statistical penalties. They are gonig to come across long since dead corpses that have gotten lost in the maze of runes and gave up hope. I may even have sound effects in the back ground going off and use my computer to play certain sounds. Sorta reverse role playing almost. Really getting them immersed into this area to let them know, this is strange.


Suggestion: some of the hopelessly lost creatures have maps and / or journals. Written in their own languages, of course - why would they use Common? This gives you a chance to map language of map to character for role-playing goodness. Will the thief reveal what the journal really says? Will the fighter admit he doesn't know what that one word means? And they can't possibly find their way through without deciphering the maps / journals and understanding what it is they read.

[Togo]

It sounds remarkably similar to the original demonweb pits. You have runes instead of doors, and teleporters instead of non-euclidian geometry, but otherwise the effect is the same.

Prepare yourself for the idea that the players may simply not bother to navigate, and just wander around until things happen.

[Nettlekid]

I'm surprised no one has asked the level or classes of the characters involved. Depending on the level, it could be pretty trivial. Is there a user of Psionics? A simple Trace Teleport power (maybe using a Power Crystal or something, since who would actually learn that power?) would let you easily keep track of which rune led where. I daresay Find the Path could also make this whole thing obsolete.

If I was a player in this, it would be pretty clear soon enough that these runes didn't do too much harm. You might fall a little and have to mitigate falling damage with a Tumble check, or swim a little, but that's not bad at all. I might use the Wizard/Sorcerer's familiar or Druid/Ranger's animal companion to scout, especially if they had more than one mode of movement (like a hawk or badger). Failing that, Arcane casters would use Spellcraft to identify the magic signatures on the runes, and try to match up "enters" and "exits" using those unique magical signatures. Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of Conjuration (Teleport) or Conjuration (Summoning) spells would be up to it, I daresay. What happens if you tie a rope to someone who touches a rune? Does the rope hang in space, or cut, or what? What happens if nonliving matter touches the rune? Because I'd want to throw an iron pot at a rune and listen for the clatter elsewhere. Mark the runes and all your paths with chalk, and make a map of the dungeon layout. Otherwise, like people have said, it's JUST trial and error.

[killem2]

...

So what you're saying is, you made the Silph Co. building, but more so.

http://i.imgur.com/keMbh.jpg

I think I remember what you are talking about, was that the one with all the treadmill walk ways?

[Jack_Simth]

Well, teleporters are generally bad things to step on in D&D, as they put you who-knows-where without preparation. Once it becomes pretty clear that it's really the only option, I'd very quickly start marking the things. Patterns of copper coins on the floor, maybe (most have a heads/tails, right?) to give binary numbers or some such. Or just scratch up the floor with a magically-hard dagger or something. Once it became clear it was effectively non-euclidian (which really, any teleporter dungeon is) I'd be tracking which teleporter number leads to which teleporter number, until I'd tried them all.

[killem2]

Well, teleporters are generally bad things to step on in D&D, as they put you who-knows-where without preparation. Once it becomes pretty clear that it's really the only option, I'd very quickly start marking the things. Patterns of copper coins on the floor, maybe (most have a heads/tails, right?) to give binary numbers or some such. Or just scratch up the floor with a magically-hard dagger or something. Once it became clear it was effectively non-euclidian (which really, any teleporter dungeon is) I'd be tracking which teleporter number leads to which teleporter number, until I'd tried them all.


I have not gotten that far into the descriptions of the rooms yet or the runes, but I suppose I could include something that at least would have the.. ehh.. for a lack of better comparsion "Memory" effect. So they can have some reference point. Like this on is the one with a marking of an elephant, so that will take us to the OTHER elephant and we remember what happened there.



I'm surprised no one has asked the level or classes of the characters involved. Depending on the level, it could be pretty trivial. Is there a user of Psionics? A simple Trace Teleport power (maybe using a Power Crystal or something, since who would actually learn that power?) would let you easily keep track of which rune led where. I daresay Find the Path could also make this whole thing obsolete.

It's a fair question.

Of the people who are currently playing who I know for sure will probably be there:

Level 4 Centaur Fighter
Level 4 Rogue 3 Assassin
Level 8 Rogue
Level 8 Cleric (earth and divine magician)
Level 8 Wizard (she's new so, she doesn't think like you would think a wizard around here would think)
Level 7 Minotaur Fighter
Level 2 Ranger/ 5 Scout/ 1 Cloistered Cleric

Now, if I have the full group, add on:

Level 3 Barbaran/ 2 Fighter/2 Beastmaster w/ wolf, riding dog, fleshraker
Level 7 Fighter/ 1 Stone lord w/warbeast brown bear
Level 7 Ranger w/ fleshraker
Level 4 Ranger Level 2 Two weapon fighter d&d wiki prc class. w/ elvenhound





If I was a player in this, it would be pretty clear soon enough that these runes didn't do too much harm. You might fall a little and have to mitigate falling damage with a Tumble check, or swim a little, but that's not bad at all. I might use the Wizard/Sorcerer's familiar or Druid/Ranger's animal companion to scout, especially if they had more than one mode of movement (like a hawk or badger). Failing that, Arcane casters would use Spellcraft to identify the magic signatures on the runes, and try to match up "enters" and "exits" using those unique magical signatures. Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of Conjuration (Teleport) or Conjuration (Summoning) spells would be up to it, I daresay. What happens if you tie a rope to someone who touches a rune? Does the rope hang in space, or cut, or what? What happens if nonliving matter touches the rune? Because I'd want to throw an iron pot at a rune and listen for the clatter elsewhere. Mark the runes and all your paths with chalk, and make a map of the dungeon layout. Otherwise, like people have said, it's JUST trial and error.

I don't have all that laid out, but the runes will probaby work with anything you throw on it. Walking aroud is possible, but just because the walls are fog like doesn't mean this is just some giant 400x400ft square maze, there are drops and elevations too. I am still not sure if I want just an obscuring fog like ability, or something that has some actual pain for entering it.


It sounds remarkably similar to the original demonweb pits. You have runes instead of doors, and teleporters instead of non-euclidian geometry, but otherwise the effect is the same.

Prepare yourself for the idea that the players may simply not bother to navigate, and just wander around until things happen.

Not sure what demonweb pits are, I will check that out, I think my friend has that module in the flesh!

Maybe they won't navigate, maybe they will just run around like chickens with their heads cut off lol.


Suggestion: some of the hopelessly lost creatures have maps and / or journals. Written in their own languages, of course - why would they use Common? This gives you a chance to map language of map to character for role-playing goodness. Will the thief reveal what the journal really says? Will the fighter admit he doesn't know what that one word means? And they can't possibly find their way through without deciphering the maps / journals and understanding what it is they read.


This...this is fantastic. thank you


At school right now guys waiting for class, will get scan up tonight!

[killem2]

Ok here is the scan.


http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i168/ica171/dungeon_zps5f72e138.jpg

The top left hand side is actually the entrance, that 15 circle is actually on the ceiling there.

[Azoth]

I gotta say that I am a major fan of trap dungeons. Always have been.

Teleporters allow for a great deal of fun, as has been said, they can send you anywhere. This is where you get to have the most fun with your party. Instead of simply making them fall from the ceiling/go to a random time out corner, have them transported to various rooms which are deadly on their own right.

Say they hit rune 3 instead of rune 2, have them transported to a room of colums with a massive drop. They have to jump from colum to colum to reach the next rune. Some colums are completely safe, some can only hold so much weight, and others crumble at the slightest touch. Give them a few big rocks on the first colum and show others are already broken in the description. Sit back and watch them panic over the countless paths to the exist.

Have another one where everything in it (aside their gear) is subject to a heat metal spell. Enjoy them trying to figure out the timing in which to move things around searching for the rune to get out.

Basically, let the dungeon itself build a paranoia in them to remember things and think analytically. Once the healers are out of spells for the day, no one is going to be in the mood for big risk taking. You don't need combat to scare people, just tangible consequences for thei brash actions.

[Sith_Happens]

I think I remember what you are talking about, was that the one with all the treadmill walk ways?

It's the one in Saffron City with all the indistinguishable teleport tiles. Getting through the place is a disorienting PITA, getting to the Master Ball even more so.

[Shining Wrath]

Ok here is the scan.


http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i168/ica171/dungeon_zps5f72e138.jpg

The top left hand side is actually the entrance, that 15 circle is actually on the ceiling there.

Hard to tell which way a teleport goes - or are they bi-directional?

[killem2]

Hard to tell which way a teleport goes - or are they bi-directional?

The numbers are the matching points. 2 goes to 2, 1 goes to 1. and so on.

[rockdeworld]

I, personally, would use my diplomacy-focused Expert to fanatisize a nearby city, use their money to hire a wizard to cast PaO on me twice and turn me into a Will-O-the-Wisp, get some decent equipment, and a bunch of trained warrior hirelings. Then I'd scout the place and have the warriors purposely walk into the fog side by side and slaughter anything they see. After carefully mapping everything out I'd return to the marketplace and pay the wizard to scry-and-die the BBEG.

Edit: And tell the warriors to shout if they find anything, of course.

[Aerlock]

...
I don't have all that laid out, but the runes will probaby work with anything you throw on it. Walking aroud is possible, but just because the walls are fog like doesn't mean this is just some giant 400x400ft square maze, there are drops and elevations too. I am still not sure if I want just an obscuring fog like ability, or something that has some actual pain for entering it.
...

Maybe have the walkways all be on different levels and as they go "deeper" into the maze the fog starts to do more damage if they stick their hand/head/sword into it. Sort of like an escalating Acid Fog effect. Say on the 1st level it does nothing, on the second 1d6 acid damage, on the third 2d6, etc. They will quickly learn that fog = bad if they're curious folks. You'd probably also want to include clues inside the fog to help them out and give them incentive to stick things into the fog.

- Aerlock

[Zubrowka74]

One advice : make shure you have somekind of logical pattern in your teleports. Something the players will be able to deduce. Random stuff that rekly on chance alone to be solved tend to be annoying. Make it complicated but not impossible. If it starts to look like the plot of a David Lynch movie, you've gone too far.

[killem2]

Is there an easier way to find a list of fog like spells, (hurtful or otherwise) that CAN'T be removed with wind?

[JellyPooga]

Very much liking the "walls are fog" theme. Perhaps you could run away with it somewhat more, to really emphasise how disorienting it is in the maze.

- Have one of the rooms' ground level be a series of narrow stone walkways above a [something]-filled pit and the whole room be filled with the cloying fog. The heroes cannot see more than 5ft ahead, so must navigate the maze-within-a-maze whilst trying to avoid falling off into the [something]. Shake it up some with periodic Gust of Wind (or similar) effects.

- False walls are an obvious shoe-in for the theme. Some of the "fog-walls" are just fog. I know you've put a "real-wall false-wall" already, but I see no repetition in having a "false-wall false-wall".

- If trickery is the theme, then a false-teleport is also an option. Instead of taking you somewhere, the "teleport-rune" (which looks much as the others do), just turns you around (for the disorientation) and creates a Silence + Fog effect in the room, disguising the presence of any others that may have been there.

- Rotating destinations. Have a teleport-rune cycle through a number of different destinations, to split up the rather large party. If you're really feeling creative and don't mind your players not noticing the effort you put into your campaigns, cycle the destination using a cross reference of mathmatical sequences e.g. a geometric progression of 2 divided by the Fibonacci sequence, rounding fractions alternately up then down and resetting when the number reaches a total greater than the number of teleport-runes in the maze. Let's see here; to get you started, that would be 2, 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 16...

[killem2]

Very much liking the "walls are fog" theme. Perhaps you could run away with it somewhat more, to really emphasise how disorienting it is in the maze.


I'm open to anything, and I like it too. It gives me way of making a dungeon, that I don't have to keep stopping to have the elves and dwarves in the party trying to search all over for secret doors.



- Have one of the rooms' ground level be a series of narrow stone walkways above a [something]-filled pit and the whole room be filled with the cloying fog. The heroes cannot see more than 5ft ahead, so must navigate the maze-within-a-maze whilst trying to avoid falling off into the [something]. Shake it up some with periodic Gust of Wind (or similar) effects.

I'm not quite understanding how to accomplish this, if the fog is in the way of the actual path, isn't that almost counter active? I do want to them to see the path ways to the runes, and those do whatever of course, but if they can't see it, I'm not sure how they would navigate that might be too much trial and error.

I could be misunderstanding you though.



- False walls are an obvious shoe-in for the theme. Some of the "fog-walls" are just fog. I know you've put a "real-wall false-wall" already, but I see no repetition in having a "false-wall false-wall".

That's true. Use basic fog, to represent doorways.



- If trickery is the theme, then a false-teleport is also an option. Instead of taking you somewhere, the "teleport-rune" (which looks much as the others do), just turns you around (for the disorientation) and creates a Silence + Fog effect in the room, disguising the presence of any others that may have been there.

Now this could be very fun.

ME: "You enter a 3x3 room, with one rune at the east end."
Player: "I step on it"
Me: "You appear in a 3x3 room, with a rune at the west end."

*same room though*
LOL




- Rotating destinations. Have a teleport-rune cycle through a number of different destinations, to split up the rather large party. If you're really feeling creative and don't mind your players not noticing the effort you put into your campaigns, cycle the destination using a cross reference of mathmatical sequences e.g. a geometric progression of 2 divided by the Fibonacci sequence, rounding fractions alternately up then down and resetting when the number reaches a total greater than the number of teleport-runes in the maze. Let's see here; to get you started, that would be 2, 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 16...

I don't mind being complicated, but I do hate it when I do something awesome and it gets over looked.

This group, is very cautious, I don't know why, they seem to think I am always out to murder them lol but I have never put them in a fight that they could not have a chance at haha.

I think with the use of walls of basic fog, that will allow some false walls to be found, with dud runes, in combination with the other trap like effects and use of actual powerful fogs, could be very disorientating.

[killem2]

Update.

So, I went back to the drawing board. Here's what I am thinking. Keeping the linear telportation (for my sanity), labeled by letters to me so I can tell here they go on my map.


I'll try and give ya the run down, try and imagine this as a figurative Matrix. (the movie) One part that looks like it is a completely differenent area but really its just manufactured.

This is actually one giant room. 355ft x 280ft (flat as a pancake), then around 160ft or more high.

Details:

Each area is surrounded with some sort of permanent obstacle but it isn't solid. Walls of fire, walls of smoke, fog clouds, acid fogs, and so on.

On this level are pillars that actually raise up into a ceiling of a mix of Solid Fog and Mind Fog. These are reached via a rune, that leads into a pathway of pillars you can jump between. Some 5ft, 10, 15ft,20ft apart. Some with running distance, some not.

If you miss the jump, you fall into the solid fog, which acts as a pillow, until you fall through the rest, and then you fall and take falling damage. :smallsigh:, and of course the mind fog penalties.

Some of these pillars actually fall outside of the areas surrding the runes with fog, and if you did fall down here, you would be able to see strange and random clouds in odd places.

To the unknowing, these look like a new room, new obstacles, but if the obscuring mists/fogs, ect were not there, you'd be able to clearly see the entrance all the pillars, and of course the runes :).

I would like to use some of those clouds that deal more effects but the stats say they are "rolling" clouds, THEY NEED to stand still :(.

I have little parts where they will see other adventurers. There will be no enemies here. The only possible damage is walking through certain clouds, walking through walls, falling, and so on.

They are also Colums of Ice from frost burn :D.