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Dr paradox
2013-04-02, 12:50 PM
So, in my campaign, the party is going to get their hands on a puzzle box with a talking head inside. but, they can't talk to the head until they open the puzzle box.

The purpose of there being a puzzle on it is because the box is in the hands of the local empire, who are trying to crack it, but have thus far been unsuccessful.

The problem, however, is that it's no fun for the game to grind to a halt why they try to brute-force-rubiks-cube this thing. It was my hope to incorporate the solution with local mythology or clues found from where the box was retrieved from.

Has anyone done something like this before? or seen something like this? or have any ideas about how to put it together?

mjlush
2013-04-02, 02:24 PM
So, in my campaign, the party is going to get their hands on a puzzle box with a talking head inside. but, they can't talk to the head until they open the puzzle box.

The purpose of there being a puzzle on it is because the box is in the hands of the local empire, who are trying to crack it, but have thus far been unsuccessful.

The problem, however, is that it's no fun for the game to grind to a halt why they try to brute-force-rubiks-cube this thing. It was my hope to incorporate the solution with local mythology or clues found from where the box was retrieved from.

Has anyone done something like this before? or seen something like this? or have any ideas about how to put it together?

You quite right about the problems, your painted into a bit of a corner. You have already established that presumably the brightest in the empire have tried to crack it why should the PC's be able to do it...

Two suggestions come to mind one they have to quest for the reclusive Fingers McGee greatest puzzle solver in the world.

The other would be that the empire took entirely the wrong approach and you actually need to go on some kind of "spirit quest" inside it to speak with the head... and the markings on the outside are clues to that quest

Dr paradox
2013-04-02, 04:01 PM
It was my thought that the empire was taking the wrong tack.

my perspective was that they were trying to brute force it, but that there might be clues inside the tomb where it was dug up. the question largely is, how to provide enough of a clue to a long term puzzle that it can be solved relatively easily, but without just GIVING them the combination or what have you.

Spirit quest is a possibility. perhaps the necessary incantation is engraved on the walls of the tomb? what challenges therein? I could take an inception, anti-physics psychedelic mind tour. Still, I might prefer having the party feel super smart.

mjlush
2013-04-02, 05:40 PM
It was my thought that the empire was taking the wrong tack.

my perspective was that they were trying to brute force it, but that there might be clues inside the tomb where it was dug up. the question largely is, how to provide enough of a clue to a long term puzzle that it can be solved relatively easily, but without just GIVING them the combination or what have you.

Spirit quest is a possibility. perhaps the necessary incantation is engraved on the walls of the tomb? what challenges therein? I could take an inception, anti-physics psychedelic mind tour. Still, I might prefer having the party feel super smart.

The thing about a spirit quest is that clues written on the walls of the tomb may be incredibly cryptic if taken literally, but could be literally true when encountered in the psychedelic mind tour "When the goat turns red strikes true" could refer to a cleric. a zombie goat and a game of twister.

Re'ozul
2013-04-02, 06:36 PM
Or it could be a more fun solution.

The box is riddled with three different sets of interconnected hint systems, each in a different language (Draconic, Celestial, Infernal). The hints are all merely moderately obscure but allow multiple interpretations through the obscure nature. Each set at its end impresses upon the reader that an incorrect solution will terminate the content in a great magical explosion.

The precise wording is. "Great magics were worked in creating this containment, and great magics will erupt unless the correct solution is found from these reminders."

So the greatest minds took all the different hint-trails and have been analyzing them for years now. But they hit a roadblock in the obscureness of the hints and have been sending out scholars to all ends of the plane to find correct interpretations to finalize their answer.

However, the hint trails are a red herring. The 'from these reminders' part of the end messages refers to the end messages themselves.
The solution is simply to take the cube into an antimagic field and smash it, disallowing the magics of protection to work and the magics of destruction to emerge.

kyoryu
2013-04-02, 08:04 PM
Here's a thought. This may not work for you or your group.

Don't come up with a solution. Instead, let your players come up with ideas for how they want to approach solving the box. Whatever way they agree on, say "yes, but..." and introduce sufficient complications in their path.

"We want to find the bestest puzzle solver in the world!" "Sure, but... you'll have to find who it is, where he is, and convince him to help you."

"We want to find a super magical spell that can solve it!" "Sure, but... you'll have to do lots of research for that, which will probably give away what you're doing. Oh, and it's going to take some special components."

"We want to search out secret clues that we think are hidden!" "Sure, but... the clues are scattered across the continent, and in very dark and dangerous places."

"We want to go on a spirit quest to find info on it!" "Sure, but... that could be dangerous, and you'll need to find out how to start it. And once you've done the quest, you'll have to find someone to help you interpret the clues."

Dr paradox
2013-04-02, 08:19 PM
Hm. I'd rather not make opening the box itself a whole big song and dance multi stage adventure, because that's how they're getting access to it in the first place, not to mention that it's their lead on something they've been wanting to investigate for five levels by now.

The loophole closer with the anti-magic field is interesting, but I can see at least two problems with it...

1: the party doesn't have anti-magic field yet. granted, they can find another wizard, but it's something to consider.

2: the whole thing hinges on them interpreting a misleading statement in the correct way. that's worse than a riddle - that's guessing one of those word tricks, like "If the blue man lives in the blue house, and the green man lives in the green house, who lives in the white house?"

or stuff like that.

most specifically, I would want it to include an aspect of the culture's mythology, that the empire overlooked because they were wrapped up in their own cleverness (They're from a different continent).

maybe the solution is just to smash the box, and the carvings on the outside make subtle reference to a cultural hero who cut gordian's knot? something along those lines, perhaps.

thanks for the suggestions so far!

Zahhak
2013-04-02, 09:03 PM
Has the party physically seen the puzzle box? It seems to me that the empire and whoever made the puzzle box may be spreading disinformation. The empire may physically have a puzzle box, but it is just a decoy they are using (or that the makers of the "puzzle box" used to confuse people), and the real "puzzle box" is an elaborate maze that has random locations where you need to answer a riddle or solve some physical puzzle, and a failure means death. Throw in an anti-magic field to prevent communication, and you have the perfect reason why the empire hasn't cracked the puzzle yet, but that the party reasonably could get through it. And if the empire doesn't even know that the "puzzle box" isn't the real "puzzle box" well, that just makes things even better: the party could figure out where the real puzzle box is and go in unobstructed.

Of course, if your party hates dungeon crawls, they wont like it very much, but its an idea.

kyoryu
2013-04-02, 09:18 PM
Hm. I'd rather not make opening the box itself a whole big song and dance multi stage adventure, because that's how they're getting access to it in the first place, not to mention that it's their lead on something they've been wanting to investigate for five levels by now.

That's fine, you can still use "Yes, but..." to get ideas from the players and then make it interesting.

Basically, I'm suggesting that instead of a puzzle, you make it a story, and allow the players to contribute. Puzzles are *hard*, and while some people are good at making them, most of us aren't.

What'sInAName?
2013-04-02, 09:45 PM
Well ...

There's always the old standby of "Only the worthy may open the Ancient Puzzle-Box of Mysterious Long-Dead Culture". And determining who among the players is actually "worthy" would be subject to the cultural values of the box's creators ... so maybe the culture has a really traditional Lawful Good mindset and only a Paladin (or at least a really lawful, really good character) can open it. Or maybe the culture valued freedom, independence, and creativity and so only someone of a Chaotic alignment can open it. Or maybe the culture was all about tyrrany and domination and so only someone of an Evil alignment can open it. Or the culture valued peace and harmony and balance in all things - only True Neutral can open it. That sort of thing.

Depending on the alignment of your players, you can change the specifics of what exactly qualifies as worthy in such a way that it is not inconceivable that the Antagonistic Empire hasn't had someone of that alignment try to open the Box - if the Empire is, as I would expect, inherently Lawful, then it's very doubtful that anyone of a Chaotic alignment would rise to such an important and trusted position that they would be allowed to try to open the box.

Otherwise, maybe the Empire actually figured out how to open the box, but the players stole it before they could actually try their new theory. The players could then find the solution in the journal of one of the Empire's leading scholars without going too far out of their way. If push comes to shove, you could have the Empire re-capture the Box and open it without the players' help, but you leave an opening for the players to steal back the Box before the Empire's people can do anything. If they don't steal the box there, then maybe after opening the box, the Empire quickly closes it back up, packs it away and sends it via courier to the Emperor/Empress him/herself. That leaves the players with plenty of time to steal back the Box without facing ridiculous odds - maybe they waylay the courier and his small contingent of guards, or they sneak aboard the messenger's ship and escape via rowboat, or whatever.

Dr paradox
2013-04-03, 02:55 AM
Perhaps a little more background on their situation.

The party has not been on good terms with the empire, but the empire is NOT evil. They aspire to lawful goodness, but as governments tend to do, fall short of that goal by way of "necessary evil."

The party was convinced by a paladin working for the empire to earn their freedom by helping out with violent resistance to empire presence on their continent (Note: not really rebellion against takeover, the resistance if violently opposed because they see the empire as a subversion of their culture, which in some ways the empire is.)

This basically meant that instead of the party having to break into the fortress where the box is under examination, they're instead doing a quest for the empire so that they're ALLOWED inside to see the puzzle box.

This provides some wrinkles. the empire will almost certainly not allow them to take the box anywhere, but there aren't really any time constraints. then again, whatever they do or say with the box and the head inside will be closely monitored.

The head itself is that of a person named Mimir, the first of his kind to make contact with the gods. he curried favor with the god of wisdom and magic, and so was granted intellect, a hotline to the gods, and immortality. He probably came to regret this last one, as he was beheaded out of jealousy by another, his head kept as a trophy. from that position, mimir played dead, and yet tormented his foe with his gifts while the war leader slept, driving him to madness.

there are a few other stories, but largely the path of the head of mimir is lost to time, only recently resurfacing in an archaeological dig conducted in territory friendly to the empire.


And that's the far too long whole story behind the whole shebang. use it wisely.

W3bDragon
2013-04-03, 04:30 AM
Working with the angle that the empire is wrapped up in their own cleverness trying to understand the hints to open the box, while the actual solution is to just disable its magics and then open it . . .

You could tie in local myth and legend with the following story:

Mimir's mythical tale is a little known local legend in this culture. The legend speaks of a man who managed to cheat his way to success and eventual immortality. Though the tale itself is only known by the most studied mythologists, Mimir's name has not itself gone into obscurity. Over time, his name has taken the meaning in local vernacular to cheat successfully, or cheat when you have no other option to achieve your desired result.

Examples:

* Mark played cards against the biggest card sharks in town. He mimired his way to a 200 gold profit before leaving town.

* I know I wasn't allowed to use the riding horses for farming, but the mule was sick, and the farm needed tilling, so I mimired it. At least the tilling is done.

Mark: "Roark the bully challenged me to a fight at midday and he had a bet with his buddies that I wouldn't show up. I showed up with two deputies at my side."
Jacob: "You mimired that one nicely!"


The idea is to allow them to recognize Mimir's name as part of their local vernacular and then it usually refers to successful cheating. That should hopefully put them on the path of cheating their way to successfully opening the box rather than trying to puzzle out what the hints mean as the Empire has been doing. Once that's done, any reasonable attempt to cheat their way to success should work. Dispel Magic, Anti-magic field. Even throwing it off of a cliff so that the box shatters far away from them and any magics it carries are released harmlessly.

Zahhak
2013-04-03, 10:22 AM
I think this actually ties in pretty with my suggestion. If the quest for the empire included some test of their loyalty to the empire, they could finally get in to see the puzzle box and find a group of depressed puzzle workers who admit they cracked it a month ago, but that it didn't open. The party could then suggest that clues might be found where the puzzle was originally found, and from there "accidentally" discover that the puzzle was a trick, and really Mimir's head is in the center of a maze.

puctheplayfull
2013-04-04, 04:01 PM
Some questions...
Has the Empire already gone over the tomb where the box was found with a fine toothed +5 comb? If so, there isn't likely to be much in there that the party will find unless it has to be found by someone from that racial/cultural background. Even then, the occupying scholars/military would have likely used local laborers as part of the excavation force that brought out the box and further searched the tomb, and thus would have found anything hidden from outsiders.

Is the head of Mimir actually in the box? If so, that eliminates any need for an additional maze or clues to an alt location. I would avoid red herrings, your PC's will misdirect themselves enough trying to solve the puzzle.

Does the party have access to any special tools, additional information, or magical/special abilities or items that the Empire doesn't? If so, that could be your solution, it's just a matter of putting the right clues in for them to find it, that the Empire couldn't have connected to ability/item X.

If the answer to the last was no, do you want the solution to be magical, mechanical, a combination of the two, or neither? This is only a step in the right direction. You still run into the problem of creating a solution the PC's could come up with and enact that the greatest scholars of the Empire could not.

Have you already come up with and given them any of the text from the box? If the PC's already have part of the puzzle, you will have to build from that part, but if not, that gives us a lot more freedom in creating the right clues, once we have a solution. If you have some of the text, and they don't have it yet, what have you got so far? That would be a good place to start on finding your solution.

Further building on the questions I asked above will help narrow down possible ways they can solve the puzzle, and once you have found a solution, you can start trying to come up with clues the Empire would have missed or at least misinterpreted that the PC's can use to solve it.

I've tried using cryptic clues and puzzles for doors and chests before with mixed results. In some cases, the PC's figured it out easily, and in others they skipped, missed, or ignored the clues and could never get past the puzzle without help. If you are not familiar with the 'three clue rule' (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule) for investigative games (I only recently stumbled upon it on the playground), I would suggest reading up on it as it would probably apply to your situation.

Zahhak
2013-04-04, 06:17 PM
I don't think this was specifically directed at me, but still think I should respond to these two.


Has the Empire already gone over the tomb where the box was found with a fine toothed +5 comb?

My assumption was that they knew the puzzle box was at place X because of some cryptic riddle, which could reasonably be understood to lead somewhere else.


Is the head of Mimir actually in the box?

It doesn't have to be. My comments have been with the understanding that the box itself is a diversion and the head of Mimir is actually in a maze.

Have you already come up with and given them any of the text from the box?

Kami2awa
2013-04-05, 04:51 PM
The idea that the puzzle is still unsolved isn't so unlikely; consider the plot of the Stargate film, where the US military spend years trying to crack the Stargate to no avail only to have a civilian expert (Daniel Jackson) break the code in a few days.

A thought occurs, since the box has a talking (and so presumably sentient) head inside... there's a old video game which has a door that can't be opened by the player. It's locked, there's no available key, it can't be broken down, there are no tools, magic, tricks or other means to open it. How do you get in?

You knock.

Though the trouble with this kind of puzzle is that if there is only one solution the players will never get it and eventually you'll have to give it to them just to stop them dying of boredom or giving up. I think the best idea is to provide a few hints that *might* solve the box (e.g. indecipherable runes on the outside) and let them find ways to open it themselves, with the most well-thought out or creative route being the successful one.

Nepenthe
2013-04-06, 09:40 PM
"It is not hands that call us, but desire."
Probably butchered that quote, but whatever. The final step to opening the box is that you have to want it to open. None of the hired puzzle solvers really want that in their heart of hearts because then they'd be out of a job. Maybe require the PCs (via a sidequest) to really, really know that they want it open before they can open it themselves.

glissle
2013-04-08, 12:32 AM
How about communicating telepathically with Mimir to ask him for the solution?

The Empire could mention that they've already attempted that, but that they apparently angered him or made him otherwise reluctant to have the box opened.

The party could offer to go on a quest for him, and the quest could be one the Empire wouldn't like - such as seeking a way to (eventually) obtain or grow a new body for him, which would make it awkward for a non-evil state to treat him like an object.


I like the idea of letting any reasonable idea of the party have the potential to succeed.

If you don't feel comfortable with doing it totally by fiat, you could overlay one of the new-fangled games systems that have the "fail forward" (http://adam.legendary.org/thoughts/13th-age-fail-forward/) concept built in, as a meta-mini-game.