How to fix VoP... one simple fix.

[visigani]

For each Vow the character posseses he may prepare and cast one clerical spell of any level equal to a cleric of the same level as a supernatural ability. He must still meet any ability score or alignment requirements required by the spell. He may spontanously convert any of these prepared spells into healing spells of equal level.

For example, a level 3 human Fighter with Wisdom and the Vow of Poverty, the Vow of Chastity, and the Vow of Purity feats could prepare three bull's strength spells.

[Ganorenas]

My only experiance with VoP in games has been on a class that has spell casting, though i have been told VoP monks are popular. :smallsmile:

It does seem like a good fix, but as stated above, I do not have much experiance with VoP.

[Flickerdart]

Because fighters can totally afford to dump enough points into Wisdom to make this worth a damn.

[Vaz]

Making Druid, Totemist, Eschew Material's Sorcerer and Binder more effective, but still leaving the Monk etc useless.

[Karnith]

Because fighters can totally afford to dump enough points into Wisdom to make this worth a damn.
Well, I dunno how much it helps anybody else, but it would certainly make a VoP druid better. Who clearly needed the help.

[Divide by Zero]

Here's a different idea that doesn't disproportionately benefit high-Wis characters: at any level the character would get a bonus Exalted feat (since there's only like four of those worth taking anyway), they can instead gain the benefit of one non-charged wondrous item of up to <some value based on character level> as a supernatural (spell-like?) ability.

[TuggyNE]

Well, I dunno how much it helps anybody else, but it would certainly make a VoP druid better. Who is clearly needed the help.

I was just about to come in and mention that you left something out, but you edit-fake-ninja'd me. :smalltongue:


But yeah, in general, a fix needs to: Have the desired effects on all, or substantially all, of the target characters
Not have that effect on any other characters Given that this doesn't fix Fighters/Barbarians, and is only moderately effective on Monks/Paladins/Rangers, it would seem it doesn't really pass the first criterion; given that it enhances Druids, it would seem it doesn't make the second.

[mattie_p]

Let's break this down...


Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): At 7th level, an ascetic gains a +2 enhancement bonus to one ability score.


Bull's Strength. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength,


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source

like, for instance, enhancement...

[Karnith]

I was just about to come in and mention that you left something out, but you edit-fake-ninja'd me. :smalltongue:
Because of my horrendously sloppy typing and a tendency to rush through things, I don't think that there's a single post I've ever made here that I haven't edited.

But yeah, in general, a fix needs to: Have the desired effects on all, or substantially all, of the target characters
Not have that effect on any other characters Given that this doesn't fix Fighters/Barbarians, and is only moderately effective on Monks/Paladins/Rangers, it would seem it doesn't really pass the first criterion; given that it enhances Druids, it would seem it doesn't make the second.
I think that making the ability independent of an ability score requirement, and having it not be available to the full-casters, would make it more balanced.

Or maybe just "pick from a handful of these effects," with access to flight, teleportation, mind blank, etc. at appropriate levels?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Here's a different idea that doesn't disproportionately benefit high-Wis characters: at any level the character would get a bonus Exalted feat (since there's only like four of those worth taking anyway), they can instead gain the benefit of one non-charged wondrous item of up to <some value based on character level> as a supernatural (spell-like?) ability.
I like this, actually. I really like this. Let's see... Level * 5000gp? Gives us a total of 550,000gp worth of magic items at 20th level, or about 2/3 WBL... but probably too much at low levels. Level squared * 500 gives us 770,000 at 20th level... a little more than WBL. But level squared * 250 seems to work pretty nicely...

{table]level|gp value|total value
2|1,000|1,000
4|4,000|5,000
6|9,000|14,000
8|16,000|30,000
10|25,000|55,000
12|36,000|91,000
14|49,000|140,000
16|64,000|204,000
18|81,000|285,000
20|100,000|385,000[/table]

[chaos_redefined]

I think it needs to allow items with charges/day, especially since that's the vast majority of MIC, the book with the most magic items printed...

[Divide by Zero]

I like this, actually. I really like this. Let's see... Level * 5000gp? Gives us a total of 550,000gp worth of magic items at 20th level, or about 2/3 WBL... but probably too much at low levels. Level squared * 500 gives us 770,000 at 20th level... a little more than WBL. But level squared * 250 seems to work pretty nicely...

*snip*
That seems like a pretty solid formula. For instance, you could pick up the effect of Winged Boots at level 8, a couple levels after the casters get it but before flight becomes mandatory.

I think it needs to allow items with charges/day, especially since that's the vast majority of MIC, the book with the most magic items printed...

By charges I meant permanently consumable charges (particularly the various single-use items), not per day charges.

[visigani]

You guys aren't really thinking through how powerful my OP suggestion is.

Upwards to 7 spells, per day, of the highest level a Cleric may cast of that level, as a supernatural ability

[Divide by Zero]

You guys aren't really thinking through how powerful my OP suggestion is.

Upwards to 7 spells, per day, of the highest level a Cleric may cast of that level, as a supernatural ability

But it's still vastly inferior to actually being a caster, it puts HEAVY roleplaying restrictions on your character if you want to take full advantage of it, and there are still some holes that cleric casting doesn't cover (for instance, unless you include domains I can't recall any cleric spells that grant flight), not to mention the sharply limited uses per day.

[limejuicepowder]

You guys aren't really thinking through how powerful my OP suggestion is.

Upwards to 7 spells, per day, of the highest level a Cleric may cast of that level, as a supernatural ability

Yes, it would be powerful. But unfortunately, it would benefit caster-classes the most, which most people here are loath to do with any change. Even if you want to make the argument that VoP gives enough ability bonuses that the mundane can afford to pump wisdom, it still remains their tertiary stat, instead of the prime one for many casters.

[TuggyNE]

You guys aren't really thinking through how powerful my OP suggestion is.

Upwards to 7 spells, per day, of the highest level a Cleric may cast of that level, as a supernatural ability

Actually, we are, and we did. A substantial boost in power that doesn't hit all desired classes equally, and does hit classes that are already more than capable as it is, is not a suitable fix — no matter how powerful it may be!

[Karnith]

You guys aren't really thinking through how powerful my OP suggestion is.

Upwards to 7 spells, per day, of the highest level a Cleric may cast of that level, as a supernatural ability
Since you have the ability score requirement, this ability disproportionately benefits the characters who are already really good with VoP. A VoP druid basically gets 7 (or whatever) free spells per day from this. On the other hand, a VoP fighter (for example) has no reason but this ability to put points into Wisdom, and hence he will need to divert resources to boost his Wisdom so he can use it effectively. It's certainly good enough to focus on, but at that point he's not a fighter, he's just a terrible cleric.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Though it does help the Monk somewhat. I can't deny that.

[Matticussama]

Make it key off of Con or Strength instead of Wisdom ("the magic comes from the perfection of body" sort of thing) and it might be better. Add in some caveat that keeps it from boosting Druids while they're in wildshape form, like it only applies to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids. Then it might be a decent fix.

[Divide by Zero]

Add in some caveat that keeps it from boosting Druids while they're in wildshape form, like it only applies to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids. Then it might be a decent fix.

And then the "creature retains the type and subtype of its original form" clause of Alternate Form actually works in druids' favor for once :smalltongue:

[visigani]

You guys aren't really thinking through how powerful my OP suggestion is.

Upwards to 7 spells, per day, of the highest level a Cleric may cast of that level, as a supernatural ability

[Matticussama]

And then the "creature retains the type and subtype of its original form" clause of Alternate Form actually works in druids' favor for once :smalltongue:

I didn't think about that part. Well then, you could always blatantly implement it so that it only works while in your natural form and not while under any sort of wild shape/polymorph/shape change ability. That way melee can benefit from it without making Druids even more overpowered.


You guys aren't really thinking through how powerful my OP suggestion is.

Upwards to 7 spells, per day, of the highest level a Cleric may cast of that level, as a supernatural ability

Yes, we are thinking about how powerful the suggestion is. We are also considering that Druids - already more powerful than melee - would get the most benefit out of it. Cleric casting is tied to Wisdom; Druids will have a high Wisdom, while Fighters/Monks/Barbarians/etc won't necessarily have a high wisdom. Therefore your "fix" gives Druids far more power than it does to melee characters, and Druids don't need any boost.

[Karnith]

You guys aren't really thinking through how powerful my OP suggestion is.

Upwards to 7 spells, per day, of the highest level a Cleric may cast of that level, as a supernatural ability
We recognize how powerful it is. Seriously. The problem is that it improves VoP spellcasters a lot more than it does VoP mundanes. Who are the guys that actually need the help.

It helps VoP mundanes, but it forces them to focus on an ability score that they don't normally need to, and it makes them into extremely limited casters instead of whatever they were supposed to be in the first place.

[Divide by Zero]

You guys aren't really thinking through how powerful my OP suggestion is.

Upwards to 7 spells, per day, of the highest level a Cleric may cast of that level, as a supernatural ability


You guys aren't really thinking through how powerful my OP suggestion is.

Upwards to 7 spells, per day, of the highest level a Cleric may cast of that level, as a supernatural ability

Reposting the same thing verbatim without actually responding to any of the criticisms isn't going to convince anyone...:smallannoyed:

[visigani]

We recognize how powerful it is. Seriously. The problem is that it improves VoP spellcasters a lot more than it does VoP mundanes. Who are the guys that actually need the help.

It helps VoP mundanes, but it forces them to focus on an ability score that they don't normally need to, and it makes them into extremely limited casters instead of whatever they were supposed to be in the first place.


Where did I say I was going to fix the power differentiation in classes?

The ability, strangely enough, benefits characters that re traditionally more pone to things like vows... namely religious characters. However, the requirement.. that allows a fighter to have access to Upto 7 Miracles in a day is a pretty small price to pay.

[Deophaun]

I thought the simplest fix was to count Incarnum feats as Exalted for the purpose of bonus feats.

[Dimers]

I thought the simplest fix was to count Incarnum feats as Exalted for the purpose of bonus feats.

I prefer "any feat you're qualified for", myself. EDIT: Er, for noncasters, of course.

[Venger]

But it's still vastly inferior to actually being a caster, it puts HEAVY roleplaying restrictions on your character if you want to take full advantage of it, and there are still some holes that cleric casting doesn't cover (for instance, unless you include domains I can't recall any cleric spells that grant flight), not to mention the sharply limited uses per day.

air walk, wind walk, and demon wings are some that offer flight without getting into domains off the top of my head, but then you're wasting your high level slots on something that at this level of play is a necessity rather than indulgence.

[Matticussama]

Where did I say I was going to fix the power differentiation in classes?

The ability, strangely enough, benefits characters that re traditionally more pone to things like vows... namely religious characters. However, the requirement.. that allows a fighter to have access to Upto 7 Miracles in a day is a pretty small price to pay.

Except that to cast Miracle the Fighter would need a Wisdom of 19. So a Fighter can put a tremendous amount of resources into obtaining this bonus, which does indeed give him some strength, at the sacrifice of his core class abilities. Meanwhile, a Cleric or Druid can take it without making any major changes to their classes. So, good job; you've just helped to unbalance the classes even more by giving them access to even more high-powered spell slots. Just what the game needed.

[Rejusu]

Where did I say I was going to fix the power differentiation in classes?

The ability, strangely enough, benefits characters that re traditionally more pone to things like vows... namely religious characters. However, the requirement.. that allows a fighter to have access to Upto 7 Miracles in a day is a pretty small price to pay.

It's not necessary to fix it, but anything that widens the power gap is generally not a good fix. Casters don't need helping.

I echo the above sentiment, offering access to meldshaping is a logical fix. Soulmelds are pseudo magic items after all.

[Andezzar]

First of all, why WIS? There are divine casters that cast with CHA and INT as well. At least make it a choice.

I do not agree that characters with a connection to the divine are any more prone to take vows than others.

I'd say base the casting stat as well as spell access on the level of the character: Assume the casting stat is Round Down(10+ 1/2 character level), minimum 11.

You should also specify what happens if the player selects a spell with a casting time longer than a standard action.

[Zerter]

This is a really weird thread. The title says fix VoP, but everybody seems to assume fix VoP in a way that makes it in line with optimized item purchasing for games that features an entire party of optimizers. My suggestion would be, learn to keep item availability in check and cut the guy using the VoP some slack for neccesary stuff. Offering access to meldshaping is not a logical fix at all. maybe 10% of people that actually play this game are familiar with it.

[Preaplanes]

Well, that fix only really works for non-Clerics, since Clerics, you know, already have Cleric spells.

[lord_khaine]

This is a really weird thread. The title says fix VoP, but everybody seems to assume fix VoP in a way that makes it in line with optimized item purchasing for games that features an entire party of optimizers. My suggestion would be, learn to keep item availability in check and cut the guy using the VoP some slack for neccesary stuff. Offering access to meldshaping is not a logical fix at all. maybe 10% of people that actually play this game are familiar with it.

yes, this is obvious a brilliant solution, because its not like the spellcasters can just make their own items anyway, or that its the non-casters who need those items the most.

[Andezzar]

This is a really weird thread. The title says fix VoP, but everybody seems to assume fix VoP in a way that makes it in line with optimized item purchasing for games that features an entire party of optimizers. My suggestion would be, learn to keep item availability in check and cut the guy using the VoP some slack for neccesary stuff.You cannot have stuff of non-negligible value, if you vow to be poor. Necessary stuff is rarely without value.

Even against non optimized characters a VoP character will be significantly behind the power curve. A feat should increase a character's power not decrease it.

While it won't be optimal for a cleric, more of a good thing is never bad. Also SU Freedom of movement is great. Unless I'm mistaken this is equivalent of a stilled silent Freedom of Movement cast by a character with eschew materials. I bet you can find other cleric spells you want to cast without V, S, or M components.

[ahenobarbi]

Well, that fix only really works for non-Clerics, since Clerics, you know, already have Cleric spells.

But getting spells as (Su) makes them better. No material component, no XP, no dispelling...

[Preaplanes]

But getting spells as (Su) makes them better. No material component, no XP, no dispelling...

Eh, better, yes, but still subpar to any other class, as they gain much less versatility with that. Heck, a L17 Rogue can suddenly cast any spell from the Cleric list, and by using Miracle, also gains access to any 7th-and-below spell from any list to boot, on top of all its Rogue abilities.

The cleric just gets to do the same thing it's been doing, just a little more.

I'm not saying it ISN'T a benefit, just that the benefits aren't comparable to those of non-clerics'.

[icefractal]

I don't think the benefit for casters is actually hugely better. You're not getting bonus spells from Wis, so if you pick non-save spells (like most of the Cleric spells are), then you only need the minimum Wis to cast them (so - a starting Wisdom of 13, I guess). And "having 7th level spells at all" is a bigger relative benefit than "having an extra couple 7th level spells". Making it key off Con instead would still be a good idea though, IMO.

However, what this doesn't do is particularly benefit VoP. Compared to taking other Vow feats and not VoP, you only get one extra spell. Sure, the bonus feats are good for taking Vows, but it's not like that's the only way to get bonus feats, and having all the Vows at once gets problematic anyway.

[Andreaz]

Where did I say I was going to fix the power differentiation in classes?

The ability, strangely enough, benefits characters that re traditionally more pone to things like vows... namely religious characters. However, the requirement.. that allows a fighter to have access to Upto 7 Miracles in a day is a pretty small price to pay.Except "religiosity" is not tied to any stat. As the rest of the crew said, this is biased towards the classes that don't lose much on the bad vop.

tl;dr: It's not simple, and it's not a fix.

[visigani]

Except "religiosity" is not tied to any stat. As the rest of the crew said, this is biased towards the classes that don't lose much on the bad vop.

tl;dr: It's not simple, and it's not a fix.

Youre going to tell me with a straight face that giving a fighter 7 open ended miracles a day isnt significantly beneficial to the fighter? A fighter that starts with 13 wis.. thanks to vop can get enough bonuses to easily reach 19 wis.

That giving a level 1 fighter with 11 wisdom access to any clerical spell of their choice isnt beneficial?

[hamiltond465]

Youre going to tell me with a straight face that giving a fighter 7 open ended miracles a day isnt significantly beneficial to the fighter? A fighter that starts with 13 wis.. thanks to vop can get enough bonuses to easily reach 19 wis.

That giving a level 1 fighter with 11 wisdom access to any clerical spell of their choice isnt beneficial?

Build a character with your new rules. Does it work?
Think about what a fighter needs.
A fighter needs STR, DEX and CON. You're adding WIS to that.
Most of the classes that are weak with Vow of Poverty are already Multiple ability dependent. Adding another one to max out plus bad spellcasting doesn't help them out as much as you might think.


7 open ended miracles at level 20, remember.

[Kesnit]

Youre going to tell me with a straight face that giving a fighter 7 open ended miracles a day isnt significantly beneficial to the fighter? A fighter that starts with 13 wis.. thanks to vop can get enough bonuses to easily reach 19 wis.

What about at lower levels, where the Fighter hasn't gotten to WIS 19?

Yes, a Fighter can get to WIS 19. But to do so, the Fighter has to forgo boosts to stats that (s)he actually uses as a Fighter - STR and CON.

And as other people have pointed out, this is a huge boost to Druids. Druid casting is based off WIS, so a Druid is already boosting WIS. Since wildshape takes the physical stats of the new shape, but keeps mental stats, a Druid is going to dump physicals in favor of mentals anyway.

In summary: Your "fix" hurts Fighters (because they need to boost WIS as well as STR and CON) and helps Druids (who already boost WIS).

[Soranar]

I'd just keep the vow as is but add the following

at each level, you may spend the equivalent a quarter your allotted wealth by level (or whatever you DM seems justified) to improve your vow however you see fit, this improvement essentially mimics the properties of any given magic item without actually having said item

in a similar fashion, the bonuses granted by the vow can also be improved accordingly, thus the sacred bonus to armor can be enchanted as if it was a normal magic armor (for example you could add fortification to it)

the mimicked item appears as a sacred version of the original magic item and is, in fact, a sacred boon granted by your god to aid you on your quests

as such this item does not truly exist and thus is weightless and it cannot be sundered

however the item will be suppressed by an antimagic field and it is a supernatural ability

These improvement do not grant you more magic item slots then you would normally have, any magic item you mimic fills the appropriate slot

This way you're still penalized for not taking items but you can compensate for obvious flaws that make certain classes unplayable (add a way to fly for example) and gives you some ways to customize the vow a little

[Andreaz]

Youre going to tell me with a straight face that giving a fighter 7 open ended miracles a day isnt significantly beneficial to the fighter? A fighter that starts with 13 wis.. thanks to vop can get enough bonuses to easily reach 19 wis.

That giving a level 1 fighter with 11 wisdom access to any clerical spell of their choice isnt beneficial?

The straightest face. A fighter that gears for wis is going to end up as a guy that cannot wield a sword and gets to be a cleric roughly once per day.

[mattie_p]

In addition to being forced to boost wisdom, a fighter only gets 7 miracles or whatever each day if they have all 7 vows. A fighter with vow of non-violence and vow of peace may as well not be a fighter.

[killem2]

Youre going to tell me with a straight face that giving a fighter 7 open ended miracles a day isnt significantly beneficial to the fighter? A fighter that starts with 13 wis.. thanks to vop can get enough bonuses to easily reach 19 wis.

That giving a level 1 fighter with 11 wisdom access to any clerical spell of their choice isnt beneficial?

Beneficial doesn't mean fixed.

VoP should grant some BAB increases as well.

[Andezzar]

Don't forget that whatever you can do with miracle is pretty much GM fiat:
You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

A miracle can do any of the following things.

[...]

In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.

Lol Fighter with Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace.

[Karnith]

Lol Fighter with Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace.
Well, you can still deal nonlethal damage with both vows, so it's at least do-able, if silly.

[Andezzar]

Well, you could still deal nonlethal damage, even with both vows. So it's at least do-able, if silly.Woops forgot about still being allowed to deal nonlethal damage. Too bad that you cannot even have a merciful walking stick due to VoP.

[Karnith]

Woops forgot about still being allowed to deal nonlethal damage. Too bad that you cannot even have a merciful walking stick due to VoP.But you can punch people into unconsciousness with your mighty fists of pacifism.

[Andezzar]

But you can punch people into unconsciousness with your mighty fists of pacifism.Which requires at least one feat or class feature to avoid getting a sword in your face every time you try.

[Karnith]

Which requires at least one feat or class feature to avoid getting a sword in your face every time you try.
Well sure, but Improved Unarmed Strike is a fighter bonus feat, and (more importantly) I am endlessly amused by the idea of an ardent pacifist brutally beating people into unconsciousness.

[Fates]

Here's a different idea that doesn't disproportionately benefit high-Wis characters: at any level the character would get a bonus Exalted feat (since there's only like four of those worth taking anyway), they can instead gain the benefit of one non-charged wondrous item of up to <some value based on character level> as a supernatural (spell-like?) ability.

Eh, I guess it makes the vow more useful, but I think it would no longer feel like a character who actually took a vow of poverty. Still, I haven't got any better ideas.

[Andezzar]

I guess that is the main problem with vow of poverty as a feat. It should be a restriction and not a benefit, but feats should give you benefits not restrictions.

While it can make sense for the character to take such a vow, it would normally only hinder him in pursuing an adventuring career.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well sure, but Improved Unarmed Strike is a fighter bonus feat, and (more importantly) I am endlessly amused by the idea of an ardent pacifist brutally beating people into unconsciousness.
Hmm... won't kill, but won't mind breaking a few bones with nonlethal damage... where have I seen that before... I'm the Batman!

[Dimers]

Yeah, VoP should've been introduced as a flaw, not a feat. GURPS comes out and says it: "disadvantages" aren't always things that society looks down on, they're just anything that hinders your character mechanically.

[mattie_p]

Yeah, VoP should've been introduced as a flaw, not a feat. GURPS comes out and says it: "disadvantages" aren't always things that society looks down on, they're just anything that hinders your character mechanically.

Mechanicly, it functions as a flaw, why do you think you get so many bonus feats?

[Flickerdart]

My suggestion would be, learn to keep item availability in check
Why can't melee have nice things again?

[Preaplanes]

Hmm... won't kill, but won't mind breaking a few bones with nonlethal damage... where have I seen that before... I'm the Batman!

Every other Naive Good character ever?

Or batman. Clever, Grod, clever.

[Andezzar]

Why can't melee have nice things again?Melee should, but anyone who forgoes worldly possessions should not.

Giving a VoP character access to the benefits of certain magic items may however put him at less of a disadvantage compared to the normal "kill them and take their stuff" characters.

[Kornaki]

Hmm... won't kill, but won't mind breaking a few bones with nonlethal damage... where have I seen that before... I'm the Batman!

Batman taking vow of poverty explains why he didn't explode at the DM when Bane stole all his money. They probably worked it out together beforehand

[Flickerdart]

Melee should, but anyone who forgoes worldly possessions should not.
A character so pure and good that they forgo material wealth to help the needy should not become worse at fighting for good and justice than a character who hoards it all in a big vault. Because if they do become worse, then they're actively harming the cause of good by giving their stuff away, making the decision inconsistent with the ideals for which the decision was made.

[Andreaz]

A character so pure and good that they forgo material wealth to help the needy should not become worse at fighting for good and justice than a character who hoards it all in a big vault. Because if they do become worse, then they're actively harming the cause of good by giving their stuff away, making the decision inconsistent with the ideals for which the decision was made.That makes such characters fools, just as it is IRL.

Now the question is whether that reality should be encouraged or changed.

[Flickerdart]

Options that are only taken by stupid people should not exist in a balanced game.

[Juntao112]

That makes such characters fools, just as it is IRL.

I do believe real life lacks a population of rich vigilantes beating up criminals at night.

[Andezzar]

Options that are only taken by stupid people should not exist in a balanced game.Since when has D&D been balanced?

A game that is supposed to have a least a vague connection to reality should have options that are suboptimal/only taken by stupid people, because those options do exist in reality.

[Suddo]

Youre going to tell me with a straight face that giving a fighter 7 open ended miracles a day isnt significantly beneficial to the fighter? A fighter that starts with 13 wis.. thanks to vop can get enough bonuses to easily reach 19 wis.

That giving a level 1 fighter with 11 wisdom access to any clerical spell of their choice isnt beneficial?

If the fighter wanted to be a cleric he should play a cleric.

And giving Supernatural spells out like candy is stupid. I mean now the fighter's party (not the fighter) has infinite wealth.

Edit:

That makes such characters fools, just as it is IRL.

Now the question is whether that reality should be encouraged or changed.

Even though there should be divine leadership allowing them to become more powerful?

[Juntao112]

Since when has D&D been balanced?

A game that is supposed to have a least a vague connection to reality should have options that are suboptimal/only taken by stupid people, because those options do exist in reality.

So... people should be punished because they do not have the free time to learn all the ins and outs of D&D?

[Flickerdart]

Since when has D&D been balanced?
I dare suggest that in a thread titled "how to fix VoP", we are implicitly interested in balance.

[SeekAndDestroy]

Hmm... won't kill, but won't mind breaking a few bones with nonlethal damage... where have I seen that before... I'm the Batman!

I was thinking more the Bible being somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps, but...

[killem2]

I was thinking, I would love to roll a charismatic VOP monk, with leadership recruiting monks with VOP. :P

[Andezzar]

So... people should be punished because they do not have the free time to learn all the ins and outs of D&D?The problem lies with the fact that VoP is labeled feat, which implies a benefit, but a VoP IRL is nothing but a drawback. The easiest fix is to rebrand it as a flaw, and give the character, that actually takes it, a bonus feat instead of the rules from BoED. If the character later acquires possessions, remove the feat and the flaw. This obviously is not very attractive, which would explain why very few characters IRL and in game would take that flaw.

Now if you want to give he character krazy powahs because he does not get any stuff, you could start by making the bonuses to ability scores untyped. That way they will not interfere with spells. Now this will not do much to the whole caster>melee problem, but at least it will not put the VoP character that much behind.

Next you should look at one of the must haves lists and assign a couple of those abilities to the VoP table.

I doubt it would be simple balancing that, especially if you want to keep the flavor of restricting yourself.

[Divide by Zero]

Melee should, but anyone who forgoes worldly possessions should not.

Giving a VoP character access to the benefits of certain magic items may however put him at less of a disadvantage compared to the normal "kill them and take their stuff" characters.

The post that was referring to suggested "balancing" VoP by limiting the rest of the party's access to items. Which would only make the gap between casters and non-VoP mundanes even wider.

[Tvtyrant]

Solution is obvious. Limited Wish at will SU attached to Con as a swift action. Now the VoP is broken across the board, and allows the user to keep up with item users. /Sarcasm

[visigani]

What about at lower levels, where the Fighter hasn't gotten to WIS 19?

Yes, a Fighter can get to WIS 19. But to do so, the Fighter has to forgo boosts to stats that (s)he actually uses as a Fighter - STR and CON.

And as other people have pointed out, this is a huge boost to Druids. Druid casting is based off WIS, so a Druid is already boosting WIS. Since wildshape takes the physical stats of the new shape, but keeps mental stats, a Druid is going to dump physicals in favor of mentals anyway.

In summary: Your "fix" hurts Fighters (because they need to boost WIS as well as STR and CON) and helps Druids (who already boost WIS).

The fighter needs wisdom equal to the level of spell.. just like a cleric.

If he has this feat at lvl 1 and has 11 wisdom he can cast one level one cleric spell per

[Augmental]

The fighter needs wisdom equal to the level of spell.. just like a cleric.

The thing is that the cleric's spellcasting is a central part of the class. Fighters don't get anything from a high wisdom that other classes can't.

[Divide by Zero]

The fighter needs wisdom equal to the level of spell.. just like a cleric.

If he has this feat at lvl 1 and has 11 wisdom he can cast one level one cleric spell per

And then as they level up they have to put their highest stat boosts into a stat that otherwise has absolutely no bearing on their ability to fulfill their role, making them even more MAD than they already are. And you still haven't addressed the fact that tying it to other Vows causes severe roleplaying restrictions for people who otherwise wouldn't be taking them.

[icefractal]

In terms of balancing item-less characters in general, there are basically three things that non-consumable items do:
1) Provide basic bonuses - ability scores, AC, attack, saves. This is easy to cover, and VoP does so.
2) Fill in the capabilities for taking on higher-level challenges, such as flight, special senses, SoL protection, and so forth (see http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851, for example). This is harder, and VoP doesn't adequately cover it.
3) Get a variety of useful benefits from minor items - Anklets of Translocation, for example, are trivial in cost by high level, but still provide an effect that's quite useful when you need it. VoP doesn't even try to handle this.

So, I can see a couple possibilities:

The Simple Way
The item-less character gets an amount of virtual money, equal to some % of normal WBL, that they can "spend" on adding item effects as abilities.

More Themed, More Complex
The item-less character gets:
* A basic backbone of stat bonuses, like what VoP gives.
* A number of selections off a list of major abilities, such as flight, senses, protections, etc. These can be themed to what source the powers are coming from. By 15th level or so, they should have pretty much all of these.
* A number of selections off a list of minor abilities, being the relatively lesser but still important abilities normally provided by lower-level items.

[visigani]

And then as they level up they have to put their highest stat boosts into a stat that otherwise has absolutely no bearing on their ability to fulfill their role, making them even more MAD than they already are. And you still haven't addressed the fact that tying it to other Vows causes severe roleplaying restrictions for people who otherwise wouldn't be taking them.

They aren't required to put their highest level stat boost into anything. They can if they WANT TO... but they don't have to. THey retain the power they had previously... which as I assert is any cleric spell any cleric may cast so long as they meet the same restrictions as said cleric.

Which, when we're talking about XP-less Miracles is pretty eff'ng amazing...

If they want to have the ability to cast SEVEN MIRACLES A DAY AS SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES... they have to invest. If they don't want to... they on't have to.

There's no feat in the game that gives you that kind of power. None.

Mind you, the fighter still benefits from increased wisdom... better will save, better spot/listen tc etc... now he just benefits more. A lot more.

And that's why the Cleric gets this so cheaply and it comes at a price for the fighter.because the Cleric *already has access to the entire clerical spell list*.

Finally, your demands concerning "roleplay" are pretty comical. That being said the VoP itself grants you access to the ability, so simply having VoP would allow you to cast at least one miracle per day. I mean is that not enough? And the more "holy" you get... the more vows you take... vows f chastity, vows of peace, vows of purity... the more power you gain.

[Venger]

They aren't required to put their highest level stat boost into anything. They can if they WANT TO... but they don't have to. THey retain the power they had previously... which as I assert is any cleric spell any cleric may cast so long as they meet the same restrictions as said cleric.

Which, when we're talking about XP-less Miracles is pretty eff'ng amazing...

If they want to have the ability to cast SEVEN MIRACLES A DAY AS SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES... they have to invest. If they don't want to... they on't have to.

There's no feat in the game that gives you that kind of power. None.

Mind you, the fighter still benefits from increased wisdom... better will save, better spot/listen tc etc... now he just benefits more. A lot more.

And that's why the Cleric gets this so cheaply and it comes at a price for the fighter.because the Cleric *already has access to the entire clerical spell list*.

Finally, your demands concerning "roleplay" are pretty comical. That being said the VoP itself grants you access to the ability, so simply having VoP would allow you to cast at least one miracle per day. I mean is that not enough? And the more "holy" you get... the more vows you take... vows f chastity, vows of peace, vows of purity... the more power you gain.

Tell me, I’ll forget
Show me, I’ll remember
Involve me, I’ll understand - Chinese proverb/quote sometimes attributed to ben franklin/etc

I feel as though your detractors may be going about explaining our concerns in the wrong way.

visigani, do you think you could work up a build stub for us (nothing especially fancy, just say, a PB of ability scores, level breakdown, and choices for feats at each level) of a fighter with your homebrewed version of VoP?

look at him and compare him to CR-appropriate monsters. ask yourself "how would he do against them?"

you mention that a fighter with VoP provides no contradiction in RP in your mind. would you care to tell us what sort of fighting man (or woman) you can see taking VoP? doesn't have to be a novel, just a character concept or something

I could do it myself, but as I've said (or quoted rather) I feel it would be missing the point, and you would easily be able to say I (or anyone besides yourself) had built the character incorrectly on purpose to paint your vop fix in an unfavorable light.

so, if vop 2.0 fits so well on a fighter, show us and prove us all wrong. if it does, you'll have some concrete stuff (your build) to point us to to strengthen your point, if not, people will be able to pinpoint in a specific example things they have been talking about (MAD, lack of staple magical abilities, etc) and we can help fix/tweak/etc it together (presumably your original purpose for making this thread)

[Augmental]

They aren't required to put their highest level stat boost into anything. They can if they WANT TO... but they don't have to. THey retain the power they had previously... which as I assert is any cleric spell any cleric may cast so long as they meet the same restrictions as said cleric.

Even if it isn't their highest stat, 19 wisdom is a pretty huge investment for a fighter.


Which, when we're talking about XP-less Miracles is pretty eff'ng amazing...

The best part of miracle (the ability to cast any spell below a certain level) can already be used for free.


If they want to have the ability to cast SEVEN MIRACLES A DAY AS SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES... they have to invest. If they don't want to... they don't have to.

Then stop focusing solely on the SEVEN MIRACLES A DAY AS SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES.


There's no feat in the game that gives you that kind of power. None.

You need to take SEVEN feats to get SEVEN MIRACLES A DAY AS SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES, two of which disable themselves permanently if you harm any living being.


And that's why the Cleric gets this so cheaply and it comes at a price for the fighter.because the Cleric *already has access to the entire clerical spell list*.

Because Melee Can't Have Nice Things - not without spending seven feats on them.

[Namfuak]

snip

I think you could make a "fighter" that used wisdom without crippling him too much. An Aasimar will get +2 to wis and fits thematically, since you can't wear armor you may as well take a monk level or two for the AC bonus, and you could safely put the first enhancement in str and the second in wis. A fighter with 11 in wis will have 19 in wis by level 20 (11+2 Aasimar+6 VoP). Saint would also work, but you would only hit 17 by ECL 20 without other investment or la buyoff. However, I think a better test is whether or not this build is "natural" - we all know how to optimize this character, but we shouldn't expect that people will take specific races or templates just to make a feat that is obviously supposed to work "as-is" actually work for them.

[Menzath]

My take on everything I have seen here is that trying to make an "all around" buff to VoP will still give a larger bonus to casters then mundane.

Why not something that specifically TARGETS mundane to get a bigger bonus?

Something like, you get a bonus of +X**** equal to you level, minus your caster level.

I know it's not a perfect idea, just premise. But it is more in line with balancing this feat than a lot of what I have seen, although giving players the ability to choose (SP) abilities from the wondrous items list is really nice. Especially since the ones in item compendium and a few other books make it so any class can do something very unexpected and amazing to help in a variety of situations.(still afraid this may benefit casters more than melee in some circumstances)

[Flickerdart]

Something like, you get a bonus of +X**** equal to you level, minus your caster level.
Flat numeric bonuses are not why mundanes suck.

[Susano-wo]

I like Ice Fractal's idea--I bit of work, but having abilities you can choose from (like flight, etc) along with the basic making up for lack of gear numerical bonuses skeleton sounds like it would make it useful for all classes

[ArcturusV]

Well... part of a decent fix for it might be doing something I always wanted to see happen. Custom Feats. In this case, Custom Exalted Feats. If we could make up new feats, if there was some rules and guidelines for that in the system... then it'd make the option more interesting. Rather than going, "Okay... I got Golden Ice Touch... a couple of vows, Nymph's kiss... and now I need to pick 3 more feats from a list of nothing worthwhile"... but instead being allowed to make up something suitably Exalted to take?

Eh. It might help. And I've always wished there was a rule for that in the game. It could make things like Fighters more interesting to play as you could use Custom Feats to come up with a truly unique and powerful fighting style (As a high level fighter should have). And similarly something like a Vow of Poverty Paladin, for example, could have something which suits his cause a champion of justice who forsakes worldly wealth, using his own divinity and blessings only.

Alas, it's not to be. Least not that I've seen.

[Menzath]

Flat numeric bonuses are not why mundanes suck.

That is very true, but as a premise to give classes without caster level a bonus larger than ones without, it works to help balance this feat.

Though it does nothing to balance classes, which at this point is requires a lot of homebrew.

it may not be a single bonus, but maybe something more complex.
for instance instead of the stat bonuses do, +(class/2-class/(caster level/5) bonus to stats as a perfection bonus)(instead of enhancement) with successive bonus' at every additional even number.
So rangers and paladins initially don't stay even, but end up so.

Again this is just an idea take it or leave it, but always subject to change.
The initial idea though, was that in the end mundane have a much higher bonus of some sort than casters, since casters can in a lot of cases take some spells to compensate for the lack of items.

Yes it is a little math, but most people who get this far into D&D this should not pose much of a problem. And for those familiar with T.H.A.C.0. this is not hard at all.

I would like something a little more defining in role variance, but the idea engine has stopped for now.(I drove for 9hrs today! forgive my ramblings)

Edit:

Alas, it's not to be. Least not that I've seen.
All to true my friend. but balance is a fickle mistress.
And she really hates skills rogues, at least most days.

[Jigokuro]

It is worth noting this 'fix' lets anyone with wis 18 dark chaos shuffle the bonus exalted feats into stuff that doesn't suck without an xp cost. That is about it though, and better fixes often include letting the feats be something other than exalted ones anyway.

@OP: You seem to be reeeealy hung up on Su Miracle being powerful. Sure, it is a powerful ability in a vacuum, but it isn't a good fix for a ton a reasons that have already been said.
Also it is TWO times per day, not seven, because the other vows have many crazy restrictions unrelated to VoP that many players wouldn't want.

[Rejusu]

If they want to have the ability to cast SEVEN MIRACLES A DAY AS SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES... they have to invest. If they don't want to... they on't have to.

The problem isn't that they have to invest, it's that mundanes have to invest comparatively more than casters for the EXACT same benefit. A fighter doesn't get any more than a cleric out of it yet has to raise a stat they don't really use.


There's no feat in the game that gives you that kind of power. None.

There may not be one, but does that mean there should be one?


Mind you, the fighter still benefits from increased wisdom... better will save, better spot/listen tc etc... now he just benefits more. A lot more.

Except spot and listen are cross class for fighters and he could get a bigger boost to saves (all of them) had he skipped VoP and bought a cloak of resistance instead. Not to mention that thanks to being so MAD his Dex or Con might suffer resulting in comparatively lower reflex or fort saves. So no, they don't really benefit from increased wisdom. No where near the degree that they benefit from strength, Dex, or Con.


And that's why the Cleric gets this so cheaply and it comes at a price for the fighter.because the Cleric *already has access to the entire clerical spell list*.

How does this even make sense? The Cleric already has nice toys so he doesn't have to work for his? It's like arguing we should discount housing for the rich because they already have access to vast fortunes.


And the more "holy" you get... the more vows you take... vows f chastity, vows of peace, vows of purity... the more power you gain.

And as a martial character the more power you lose as well. Ever heard of crippling over specialisation? Here are the problems with this "fix" :

1) Taking something that crippled mundanes more than casters to begin with and making it benefit casters even more. All the while forcing mundanes to cripple themselves further just to gain the same benefits. The power disparity between casters and mundanes is bad enough as it is, it doesn't need widening.

2) The fantastical power of XP-less miracles you keep going on about that makes this so supposedly awesome doesn't come into play until end game. Meanwhile you have to deal with playing a crippled character until then.

3) You keep going on about getting seven of these, yet as has already been pointed out the more vows you take the more crippled you are. What's the point of having phenomenal cosmic power if you've taken a vow not to kick ass with it?

Finally I don't know why you're so hung up on an XP-less Miracle being the best thing about this. Frankly Gate with no XP cost is more tempting. Gate in an Efreeti and you can have three wishes instead of a single miracle.

[ArcturusV]

Well, Solars since it's an Exalted thing in nature. But yeah. Gating would be a better option in general.

[Talya]

I got thinking about the idea in the OP, and extrapolated a bit...

What if VOP gave Divine Crusader (CDiv) spellcasting progression at every odd level, with a domain from an appropriately decided list (You're playing an exalted character after all), and a casting stat of whatever you decide? That wouldn't favor existing casters at all, would it?