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Carl
2013-04-02, 07:46 PM
I'm in the middle of writing a paladin revision but figured I'd run some reasoning by you lot first. So here's my thoughts on the weakpoints of the Paladin Class.

Skills: The only thing i can really say here is that the skill points per level are woefully inadequate. Whilst there may be an argument for some classes to have such a limited skill list that 2+int is enough. For anything with even a moderate skill list a much greater number of points are needed. The Paladin seems to have an acceptable, albeit, not spectacular, skill list.

BAB:Full BAB progression good solid basic martial class stuff, but nothing special since BAB value is limited.

Saves: Basic Fort strong, wil and Reflex weak. Aside from 3.5's whole spell issues this isn't intrinsically good or bad. It's pretty neutral.

Proficiencies: Good basic weapon proficiencies, Plus full armour and Shields thrown in for good measure. The problem is a variety of factors make Heavy Armour in 3.5 something of a dead duck. Whilst ideally this would be something dealt with by an overhaul of the armour rules, if where looking at a self contained fix, then Heavy Armour, and Shields need to be made worth it via class level changes.

Class Features:

Level 1: Detect Evil is a nice if limited use utility skill. Aura of Good seems to be pure fluff, having no practical benefit i can discern. Nothing wrong with that, but still. Smite is in theory the piece de resistance of 1st level. Unfortunately it falls at the first hurdle. Whilst the attack bonus is nice, the damage bonus is pitiful for many levels, and by then the attack bonus has become poor. To add insult to injury it's so limited in it's uses per day that it fails to really give any meaningful boost to a paladin fighting predominantly evil creatures even at 20th level. She may hit a lovely amount harder a few times per day, but if she faces enough encounters she's going to run out of uses early on in the day.

Level 2: At level 2 you get Divine Grace and Lay on Hands. Divine grace makes up for the bad saves, but i'm not sure what it accomplishes that giving the paladin better base saves couldn't. It's so low level you can't even claim it's to keep multi-classer's from benefiting. Lay on Hands is better but shows the first sign of schizophrenic design vis a vis the Paladin's primary stats. As a martial type she'll doubtless want good strength, but her spells and divine grace want wisdom, whilst her Lay on Hands and Turn Undead want Charisma. And her meatshield tendencies might dictate Con as a good stat. In short some focusing could do with going on here IMO. Other that that point Lay on Hands isn't too bad. Subject to the right base score or a big enough Charisma boost it can make a solid healing capability, if a little outpaced later on. It does share some weakpoints of paladin casting though. (see relevant level).

Level 3:Divine Health and Aura of Courage. Both are nice immunities, though a part of me is screaming at the obvious multi-classing abuse here. It wouldn't be a bad thing though if mind affect abilities where covered or something.

Level 4: Turn Undead and spellcasting. Turn Undead has the Main stat problem attached, but it is also 3 caster levels worse than the cleric form. Which means many things the paladin can turn on a successful check are probably too low level to be a really significant threat. Handy for random low level helpers of serious bad guys, but little else

The spellcasting though is a mess. With quicken requiring a feat and locking out your highest level spell slots to use, (not mention very limited higher level slots till high levels, and then they're still not exactly abundant), you've very limited ways of casting your spells whilst doing your martial stuff. It's one or the other. The spell list is also unimpressive with a huge range of affects being so weak they don't justify a spell slot, and many more being either limited by a paladins low effective caster level or just being so weak their only of marginal benefit even if they justify the spell slots. A few good spells do exist. But your still stuck with al the problems that go with it.

Level 5: The Special Mount. In theory it's a great class feature. In practise far less so. The problem is that unless you get into crazy, (but cool), idea's like sharks or dire wolves, or other such things, it doesn't tend to scale well. Even then it's always lagging. A it's gets only very minor bonuses to it's attack and damage roll's, and at higher levels the DR and SR isn't as impressive. Bonus hit Die, Natural Armour, and Yes DR/ER/SR are all nice. But at the end of the day it's ability to hurt something on level is woeful underdone. Nor can a paladin gain the mounted combat feats needed to take full advantage without giving a lot of other things up. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing. There are just too many situations where mounted combat isn't viable on space grounds for a class to be built entierly around it. As a nice extra it's ok. As a significant class feature it's lacking.

Level 6: Oh, I can cure diseases, but not very often, (far less than would be required by many situations that result in it being needed since several party members would be affected in many cases).

Level 7+:Oh. Nothing. How Lovely. Yes you get more uses of some abilities, a bit more spellcasting, and a scaling of Lay on Hands. But overall it doesn't add up to much.

The truth is an 11/9 Cleric Fighter Multiclass with 2 appropriate domains is capable of 4 attacks whilst having spells that replicate many of the effects of the Paladin, and having access to upto 6th level spells from the much broader and better cleric lists. It's not even dow to clerics are powerful. it's just that man Paladin spells are also cleric spells, and some of the class features of the Paladin can be easily replicated by a cleric. The paladin would have a marginally better turn and marginally better saves, plus the mount and smite. But in return the multi-class gets the really versatile 5th and 6th level cleric spells, not to mention more spells overall.

And to top it all off it can still be fluffed up as a perfectly acceptable holy warrior. For someone who is supposed to bring protection to the helpless, healing to the weak, and judgement to the foe the paladin is remarkably lacking in anything defining beyond the mount and does little better than a cleric does. Mostly because so much of it's power is treated as being in it's spellcasting. Which has no advantages over clerics and a whole slew of downsides to boot.



So where do i think we need to concentrate?

Well lets go through them:

Skills: Honestly a simple increase in available skill points should fix this. Let not get fancy when there's an obvious solution staring us in the face.

BAB: This honestly is fine i see no real down point to jump on here

Saves:Again a weak save isn't necessarily a bad thing so long as we give option's for dealing with some of the more overpowered affects. Alternatively we could boost sees, but indirectly to emphasise a paladin mechanic more.

Proficiencies: Here we need to do something, but that's a class level features change.

Class Features:

Level 1:I think the biggest change we need to make right away is to make smite evil a much more worthwhile affect. Making it per encounter would help, but your still going to need a fairly high level before you can fully utilise it. Honestly it needs a total re-tool to keep it appropriately prevalent in all encounters whilst keeping the power in line with the paladin level.

Level 2:Lay on Hands needs the same kind of fixes i'm going to talk about with spellcasting. The ability to use it alongside other capabilities when healing, and a actual choice of a main stat. I think the current damage application use is fine. Divine grace on the other hand needs a re-think. Mostly in terms of it's level. Apart from unnecessarily concentrating class skill it really encourages dipping 2 into paladin just to get it. Moving it up a couple of levels or so would keep that at bay.

Level 3:Again i look at these and see some multi-classing issues. Otherwise a good level.

Level 4: Turn undead really needs to be made equivalent to the cleric form.

Spellcasting needs a much more major overhaul. A Paladin really needs to be able to throw out spells alongside martial attack. Quicken, Still, and Silent spell metamagics should really be free automatics for paladin spells. At the same time, again pick a main stat for everything and stick to it. The final thing that needs a look at IMO is the type and number of various spells. Many effects are so weak they really ought to be cast at will an unlimited number of times per day. And a bunch more should be available in much greater numbers. A Paladin could also do with some actual stand out spells adding to her list, something to really cap off a high level paladins bag of magical tricks. They' shouldn't be things like earthquake or whatever. A paladins purview is the holy warrior. Not the world altering conduit of their gods power. But their best stuff shouldn't be glorified parlour tricks either.

Level 5:The mount is a nice idea, but i don't think we should be focusing our efforts on it. It's a cute fluffy throw it in, but not something we should be seeing as more than an extra IMO.

Level 6:Stuff like this really ought to just be on the spell lists IMO.

Level 7+:There needs to be a focus on bringing in more class features.. Especially ones that represent a paladins nature as a holy warrior. They're not just a fighter by another name with some cute extra abilities. A Paladin is part protector, part bringer of judgement and this should be reflected in her extra skills and such like. AT the same time Paladins are fairly variable in nature in literature. From near saint like healer and protectors to the slightly scary incarnations of vengeance, (:miko:), and within those bounds a player ought to be able to choose what sort of paladin they're representing. The class shouldn't leave them feeling constrained too much because there a lot of differences between paladin's for them to explore.


Thoughts everyone?

Grod_The_Giant
2013-04-02, 08:01 PM
The key problems you've noted-- MAD, useless smite-- are pretty well established. On the subject of quickening spells, pretty much every paladin worth his salt will pick up Battle Blessing from Complete Champion, which turns all his standard action paladin spells to swift actions. I'm not exactly sure where you'd go from here, though. I guess maybe offer a few different archetypes-- protector, healer, avenger?

I've done paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12150015#post12150015) rewrites (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14783115)before-- it's one of the three most popular, I'd say, along with the fighter and monk.

Kish
2013-04-02, 08:23 PM
Dis-cushion?

Miko's "sleep on sharp rocks" thing isn't a general paladin thing, y'know...

Phippster
2013-04-02, 08:24 PM
If you're working on a Paladin revision, I strongly suggest looking at Grod's rewrite, especially the first one. It's I think my favorite paladin rewrite I've seen on this board, and I actually discovered it after I more or less finished my own, other than custom aspects I'm adding to it, and in many ways it mirrored my own fix.

Some things I would also suggest fixing:

1. A lot of people don't like the half casting. I've seen people suggest it should run a little more like a tougher, divine duskblade. Personally, I gave it Bard-style casting, but even just expanding its spell lists solves that problem to a degree.

2. A lot of people are of the opinion Paladins should have Mettle as a class ability, and I agree. He should also have a good Will save, at least in my mind. Paladins are warriors in service to gods, and such literal and powerful devotion certainly is not for the weak-willed.

3. You should try thinking of the paladin's archetype rather than just the class. Knights in shining armor, crusaders against evil, weapons of the faith. Come up with class features that reflect how you think a Paladin should be played, and build off of that idea. Don't be afraid to make up new class features to fit your theme.

4. For abilities, try looking at Pathfinder Paladin. While it certainly has its problems, it unquestionably jumped from T5 to T4 in Pathfinder with the inclusion of its new abilities. It's eventual immunity to mind-affecting effects is golden, but could come earlier.

Carl
2013-04-02, 09:18 PM
Dis-cushion?

Miko's "sleep on sharp rocks" thing isn't a general paladin thing, y'know...

No but it's one valid interpretation you see even outside of OoTS, even in storytelling. It's admittedly one of the darker theme's, but i see no reason to bar it for that alone.

@Grod: Interesting fix, focuses a bit much on some elements i want to be optional and takes a tack on the divine connection that's stronger than i like at low levels. But interesting to see some similar thought processes.

As for the Complete Champion. I honestly think expecting people to pay out feats or whatever for exra from non-core just to make spellcasting work is really kind of bad from a design PoV, they should function without add on's.

@Phippster:

1. Yeah the duskblade is interesting, (thank you D&Dtools), but fairly different from my own solution. I hit on most of my idea's in the OP. ability to cast almost anything as a swift action and a lot of low level spells are unlimited per day. Not to mention a much expanded spell list.

2. Thats an interesting thought, but i think i have enough features to deal with the save's anyway.

3. oh yes, this is a core theme, with combat styles and oaths you can be everything from the warrior lite healing type, to the all out instrument of vengeance, or anything in between.

4. It's certainly interesting, but once you get past the mercies, (which I've folded into basic spellcasting anyway), it's only marginally different. It still lacks that definitive holly warrior feel for me. Absolutely better though :).

Phippster
2013-04-02, 10:18 PM
@Phippster:

1. Yeah the duskblade is interesting, (thank you D&Dtools), but fairly different from my own solution. I hit on most of my idea's in the OP. ability to cast almost anything as a swift action and a lot of low level spells are unlimited per day. Not to mention a much expanded spell list.

2. Thats an interesting thought, but i think i have enough features to deal with the save's anyway.

3. oh yes, this is a core theme, with combat styles and oaths you can be everything from the warrior lite healing type, to the all out instrument of vengeance, or anything in between.

4. It's certainly interesting, but once you get past the mercies, (which I've folded into basic spellcasting anyway), it's only marginally different. It still lacks that definitive holly warrior feel for me. Absolutely better though :).

I'm not saying it should run like a Duskblade, but their fix for a "Spellcasting Warrior" is something I would suggest looking into for inspiration. But giving him a bigger, better spell list and more spells per day is certainly fixing one of the paladin's weaker points.

As long as he can deal with saves, I'd say that you're on the right track. The fact that paladins don't have a good Will save always bothered me, however. But YMMV. Fixing the archetypal paladin to play to a number of play styles is always good, too.

I was actually suggesting adapting some of the auras, which definitely help in boosting him to T4. Aura of Justice and Resolve, and Righteousness at later levels are all helpful new abilities. I agree that the PF Paladin doesn't quite nail the "Holy Warrior" thing for me either, though.

EDIT: If you're looking for Paladin-y high level spells, things like Holy Word in my opinion help capture a Paladin's power from their deity. It's 7th level though, so either they'd be getting way higher casting or it would be an SLA for them.

Logic
2013-04-02, 11:47 PM
I am kinda working on a Paladin fix that makes it an archetype of the cleric.

Basically making a "Paladin" domain is my first step.

Carl
2013-04-03, 01:01 AM
@Phippster: the Main point against the duskblade for me seems to be it's more about expanding the spells per day and maximum spell level. But that doesn't address the huge number of spells a paladin has that you'd never use more than a few times per campaign or that become useless at higher levels. And limiting the known spells as it does doesn't help this. Basically I've gone off on a different tack that a tangent to that.

Regarding the edit. Already on it. There are 3 tiers of spells. Lesser which are at will spells. Greater which are the standard mid power but not spectacular one's, and then Grand which are very limited in numbers but quite powerful. Current list is below. (Cure spell's have their own separate method of acquisition, rather than trying to shoehorn them into the standard list). Basically a solid list of holyish spells and buffish spells with a couple of utilities thrown in.

Grand:Heal, Holy Word, Dictum, Holy Aura, Shield of Law, Greater Restoration, Greater Heroism, Sunburst, Greater Dispel Magic

T.G. Oskar
2013-04-03, 04:13 AM
Skills: The only thing i can really say here is that the skill points per level are woefully inadequate. Whilst there may be an argument for some classes to have such a limited skill list that 2+int is enough. For anything with even a moderate skill list a much greater number of points are needed. The Paladin seems to have an acceptable, albeit, not spectacular, skill list.

[...]

Honestly a simple increase in available skill points should fix this. Let not get fancy when there's an obvious solution staring us in the face.

Two skill points per level on a class that has no need for Intelligence means that they'll usually end up with one skill point each level. Even if their skill set isn't the best, this means they barely have access to skills. 4+Int is fair, even for their limited amount of skills.

That said: why it can't have more skills on their set? Particularly: why no Listen or Spot?


Saves: Basic Fort strong, wil and Reflex weak. Aside from 3.5's whole spell issues this isn't intrinsically good or bad. It's pretty neutral.

[...]

Again a weak save isn't necessarily a bad thing so long as we give option's for dealing with some of the more overpowered affects. Alternatively we could boost sees, but indirectly to emphasise a paladin mechanic more.

Any reason why it should only has good Fortitude saves? If you drop spellcasting (or alter its spellcasting ability score to another), Will saves will suffer, and Charisma might not help on that one.


Level 1: Detect Evil is a nice if limited use utility skill. Aura of Good seems to be pure fluff, having no practical benefit i can discern. Nothing wrong with that, but still. Smite is in theory the piece de resistance of 1st level. Unfortunately it falls at the first hurdle. Whilst the attack bonus is nice, the damage bonus is pitiful for many levels, and by then the attack bonus has become poor. To add insult to injury it's so limited in it's uses per day that it fails to really give any meaningful boost to a paladin fighting predominantly evil creatures even at 20th level. She may hit a lovely amount harder a few times per day, but if she faces enough encounters she's going to run out of uses early on in the day.

[...]

I think the biggest change we need to make right away is to make smite evil a much more worthwhile affect. Making it per encounter would help, but your still going to need a fairly high level before you can fully utilise it. Honestly it needs a total re-tool to keep it appropriately prevalent in all encounters whilst keeping the power in line with the paladin level.

Smite has its share of problems, but also its share of benefits compared to others. Since it's usable only once per day, and the damage bonus is somewhat small at the earliest levels, it's only good to add a small boost to attack rolls; later on, it's better for the damage boost, but it still needs to be saved for when it's necessary.

There's two ways to go with smite: one's turning smites into per encounter uses but keep as-is, and the other is going the way of Pathfinder (usable per day, but the damage extends several rounds against a single enemy). Choose whichever feels appropriate (both are quite good; one is meant to be the Paladin's super-attack, while the other is a more limited form of Rage), but you might need to consider boosting its early damage output. That can be a fixed boost, or probably adding Charisma to damage rolls as well (you'll be expected to start with a decent amount of Charisma, anyways).


Level 2: At level 2 you get Divine Grace and Lay on Hands. Divine grace makes up for the bad saves, but i'm not sure what it accomplishes that giving the paladin better base saves couldn't. It's so low level you can't even claim it's to keep multi-classer's from benefiting. Lay on Hands is better but shows the first sign of schizophrenic design vis a vis the Paladin's primary stats. As a martial type she'll doubtless want good strength, but her spells and divine grace want wisdom, whilst her Lay on Hands and Turn Undead want Charisma. And her meatshield tendencies might dictate Con as a good stat. In short some focusing could do with going on here IMO. Other that that point Lay on Hands isn't too bad. Subject to the right base score or a big enough Charisma boost it can make a solid healing capability, if a little outpaced later on. It does share some weakpoints of paladin casting though. (see relevant level).

[...]

Lay on Hands needs the same kind of fixes i'm going to talk about with spellcasting. The ability to use it alongside other capabilities when healing, and a actual choice of a main stat. I think the current damage application use is fine. Divine grace on the other hand needs a re-think. Mostly in terms of it's level. Apart from unnecessarily concentrating class skill it really encourages dipping 2 into paladin just to get it. Moving it up a couple of levels or so would keep that at bay.

Divine Grace is one of the few good things the Paladin has. It could be shifted a few levels up or kept as-is. Divine Grace makes the Paladin hardier in the saves department, and considering how many special attacks require saving throws, it makes Paladins extremely hard to resist. Having all good saves (like the Monk) cannot compare to what adding two ability scores to a single class does (when they advance, your saves advance as well).

Lay on Hands, on the other hand, is too weak as-is. LoH really works as a form of "burst" healing (that is, you use it to heal a lot of HP at once), but compared to the Heal spell...it's weaker. You're essentially gaining half the effect of a Heal spell once per day, which you can spread between uses.

Again, with LoH, there's two ways. One is to boost the base amount LoH heals (as with the Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality); the other is to use the Pathfinder version (1d6/2 Paladin levels, usable 3+Cha times per day). The PF version is far superior because of its Mercies (if chosen carefully), due to the fact that it can be used more than once, but it suffers from how they bind uses of LoH to uses of Turn Undead. It's not as much regarding Pathfinder, but if backporting the PF Paladin to 3.5 as-is (with TU being replaced with the PF version), it can't use Divine feats, which are better. Again, your choice on how to make them better.


Level 3:Divine Health and Aura of Courage. Both are nice immunities, though a part of me is screaming at the obvious multi-classing abuse here. It wouldn't be a bad thing though if mind affect abilities where covered or something.

[...]

Again i look at these and see some multi-classing issues. Otherwise a good level.

Technically, the immunities are half-useful. Divine Health provides immunity to diseases, but most of them are pretty low on their DC and the Paladin has the Fort save trifecta (good Fort saves + Divine Grace, plus the natural need of all classes regarding Constitution). Aura of Courage, on the other hand, is sorta weak: sure, immunity to fear effects is truly AWESOME, but the other benefit is pretty weak; the +4 bonus on saves vs. fear at such a small range really feels like no benefit at all. Perhaps a range extension would be decent?


Level 4: Turn Undead and spellcasting. Turn Undead has the Main stat problem attached, but it is also 3 caster effevtive cleric levels worse than the cleric form. Which means many things the paladin can turn on a successful check are probably too low level to be a really significant threat. Handy for random low level helpers of serious bad guys, but little else

The spellcasting though is a mess. With quicken requiring a feat and locking out your highest level spell slots to use, (not mention very limited higher level slots till high levels, and then they're still not exactly abundant), you've very limited ways of casting your spells whilst doing your martial stuff. It's one or the other. The spell list is also unimpressive with a huge range of affects being so weak they don't justify a spell slot, and many more being either limited by a paladins low effective caster level or just being so weak their only of marginal benefit even if they justify the spell slots. A few good spells do exist. But your still stuck with al the problems that go with it.

[...]

Turn undead really needs to be made equivalent to the cleric form.

Spellcasting needs a much more major overhaul. A Paladin really needs to be able to throw out spells alongside martial attack. Quicken, Still, and Silent spell metamagics should really be free automatics for paladin spells. At the same time, again pick a main stat for everything and stick to it. The final thing that needs a look at IMO is the type and number of various spells. Many effects are so weak they really ought to be cast at will an unlimited number of times per day. And a bunch more should be available in much greater numbers. A Paladin could also do with some actual stand out spells adding to her list, something to really cap off a high level paladins bag of magical tricks. They' shouldn't be things like earthquake or whatever. A paladins purview is the holy warrior. Not the world altering conduit of their gods power. But their best stuff shouldn't be glorified parlour tricks either.

Divine Feats are formidable, and they require Turn Undead, so that's mostly its utility. If you don't mind, you could easily boost its effective cleric level and it wouldn't be a problem (it's just three levels, mostly), if you actually want TU to be useful outside of Divine feats.

On the other hand...I'd treat spellcasting with tweezers. It's easily the most AND least useful of the Paladin's abilities. If anything, it's the one that can be advanced the easiest, but you'll have to work with it carefully, for many reasons. If you decide to keep spellcasting, you have to justify why not take Cleric for it, considering that between the Destruction domain, Turn Undead, the Pool of Healing ACF from Complete Champion, the Courage domain (for its pseudo-Aura of Courage effect), Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell, you can make a far better Paladin than the Paladin; thus, you have to consider how to treat spellcasting so that it can coexist with the Cleric without the latter making it feel redundant. Another shift is to give it maneuvers, but then you enter the "why choose Paladin over Crusader" thing.

There's two variants that I've seen that are pretty creative. One is going the way of auras. Now, this isn't necessarily a bout of shameless self-promotion, as I've worked with Paladins and improving their auras, but there's a more recent Paladin fix that better exposes the idea of how to work with auras. The other is going the way of the Warlock, and giving it invocations; I've seen two or three fixes that have gone with that idea. Both make the Paladin unique in comparison to the Cleric AND the Crusader, not to mention making them useful overall.

However, one thing I would recommend is to replace or improve spellcasting; never remove it. The attempts at Complete Warrior and Complete Champion really aren't worthwhile. At all. The latter is a bit more effective if you're gonna drop from the Paladin class, but if you intend to take more than 6 levels, dropping spellcasting is a big mistake.

One more thing: if you intend to improve their spellcasting, note their spellcasting suffers from an inverse trifecta: they have halved caster level, they cast spells only up to 4th level, and their progression in terms of spell slots is horribly stunted. All three will have to be raised. The most common version is to give them the spell progression of a Bard or Duskblade, full CL and improve their spell list.


Level 5: The Special Mount. In theory it's a great class feature. In practise far less so. The problem is that unless you get into crazy, (but cool), idea's like sharks or dire wolves, or other such things, it doesn't tend to scale well. Even then it's always lagging. A it's gets only very minor bonuses to it's attack and damage roll's, and at higher levels the DR and SR isn't as impressive. Bonus hit Die, Natural Armour, and Yes DR/ER/SR are all nice. But at the end of the day it's ability to hurt something on level is woeful underdone. Nor can a paladin gain the mounted combat feats needed to take full advantage without giving a lot of other things up. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing. There are just too many situations where mounted combat isn't viable on space grounds for a class to be built entierly around it. As a nice extra it's ok. As a significant class feature it's lacking.

[...]

The mount is a nice idea, but i don't think we should be focusing our efforts on it. It's a cute fluffy throw it in, but not something we should be seeing as more than an extra IMO.

Again: note just how many ACFs exist that replace the mount.

I agree with a fellow poster that Divine Spirit is an excellent ACF, probably ways better than the mount. Likewise, Charging Smite and Underdark Knight are great exchanges. Even Pathfinder has the ability to replace the mount with a bonded sword (or shield, by means of archetypes), which is also better.

IMO, an advice I could give to aspiring fixers is that, if a mechanic from the game works, it's best to keep it. In this case, considering how ACFs work better than the mount BUT the mount is great nonetheless, it's best to keep the mount AND probably allow ACFs to exchange this. A good idea is to keep the special mount, back-port the PF paladin's sword bond, and let the ACFs take care of the rest. Between the mount, the sword, the spirit, the charging smite or the Underdark combat techniques, you have a decent, mutable class feature.


Level 6: Oh, I can cure diseases, but not very often, (far less than would be required by many situations that result in it being needed since several party members would be affected in many cases).

On the other hand, class features that provide nothing should be removed. Remove Disease is one of these. Cursebreaker from Complete Mage is so good, at so many levels, it's not even funny; however, the Paladin gets both spells it provides as part of its spell list. This class feature could easily be gone.


The truth is an 11/9 Cleric Fighter Multiclass with 2 appropriate domains is capable of 4 attacks whilst having spells that replicate many of the effects of the Paladin, and having access to upto 6th level spells from the much broader and better cleric lists. It's not even dow to clerics are powerful. it's just that man Paladin spells are also cleric spells, and some of the class features of the Paladin can be easily replicated by a cleric. The paladin would have a marginally better turn and marginally better saves, plus the mount and smite. But in return the multi-class gets the really versatile 5th and 6th level cleric spells, not to mention more spells overall.

I gave an idea of how a full Cleric can replace a Paladin. This was before I saw this bit. Obviously we were thinking in similar lines (namely, how a Cleric can replace a Paladin so badly, it's not even funny). However, it's a good foundation: take what makes a Cleric 11/Fighter 9 build so great (it's somewhat inefficient, though: you rarely take uneven levels of Fighter, always even), and make the Paladin stand out by something else.


Level 7+:There needs to be a focus on bringing in more class features.. Especially ones that represent a paladins nature as a holy warrior. They're not just a fighter by another name with some cute extra abilities. A Paladin is part protector, part bringer of judgement and this should be reflected in her extra skills and such like. AT the same time Paladins are fairly variable in nature in literature. From near saint like healer and protectors to the slightly scary incarnations of vengeance, (:miko:), and within those bounds a player ought to be able to choose what sort of paladin they're representing. The class shouldn't leave them feeling constrained too much because there a lot of differences between paladin's for them to explore.

Thoughts everyone?

Feats. No ifs, buts or ands. The Paladin is horribly feat starved, and even 9 levels of Fighter means you get...what, 5 bonus feats? Choose between Fighter bonus feats, Divine feats, and perhaps a smaller list. The list from Complete Champion is a good start.

Aside from that...this is something you should consider carefully. I could go ahead and suggest giving more auras (as per PF), mettle, DR, Charisma to certain rolls... but that'd be even more shameless self-promotion, and the idea is that you develop your own feel. Many of the ideas I've given were suggested by others; I simply expanded upon them.

Grod pointed something out: the best thing is to define what you want, and then you can get more refined, better ideas for your fix.

RoyVG
2013-04-03, 06:25 AM
Paladin is my favorite of all the core classes (mostly fluff wise, not mechanically), and the "holy warrior" archetype has been implemented in most of my characters up to now. The Paladin can be very strong in certain areas, but this leaves all his other options in the dark.

His ability scores are a mess. Strength and Constitution for melee combat in general, and maybe even Dexterity for a small AC boost or for ranged combat. Wisdom for casting and Charisma for all other class features. So that is a total of 4-5 ability scores that a Paladin needs. the Paladin is the schoolbook example of MADness. One of the worst parts about this issue IMO, is that divine casting in inherently a Wisdom stat for most classes (Cleric, Druid, but also Ranger, and that is Core alone). Wisdom does not fit a Paladin, Charisma does. Power of Personality, that is what a Paladin is supposed to have, and where he gets most of his powers from. This is usually addressed in the multitude of Paladin fixes by taking out Wisdom as his casting stat, which immediatly lowers i usefullness from a "a decent amount" to "dump it like yesterdays waste".

Paladin is also front-loaded with class featuers, and taking anything more than 5-6 levels is generally considered a waste of character levels. One of the major problems in my opinion is that there are not enough Paladin centric or at least Paladin friendly PrC's that are actually good for improving his overall strengths. (again this is my perception on the problem, i might be completely wrong). The worst part is that a Cleric is more often than not more suited for the PrC.

JusticeZero
2013-04-03, 09:11 AM
Honestly i've been debating on disallowing both cleric and paladin in favor of just using the PF inquisitor, which I haven't experimented with yet. Neither of those two hit my sweet spot for 'holy warrior'. Clerics feel too much like 'holy wizards', and Paladins are underpowered, abused, and fiddly.

Carl
2013-04-03, 01:11 PM
@Oskar:

1. Ahh, seems i misunderstood the wording on skills. I was under the impression that for skills at least negative modifiers where ignored, (would be a dammed good homebrew), though when i said some. I'm talking classes with 4-6 skills, none of which are especially important.

As for no more skills, it's more that they have a decent list already, no one class should be able to cover all bases IMO, be it skill's or combat. In short i don't see any need to increase or decrease the list of skills.

2. Don;t worry i've thought of that ;). My point was more if you ignore for the moment the issue of 3.5e's insane magic having a mix of saves doesn't stand out as good or bad on it's own merits ;).

3. Actually my approach is totally different to both of those. But key was extending the availability to be sufficient to last you without being too powerful.

4. I didn't say divine grace wasn't good, but it's ultra early arrival compound the way all skills are concentrated at early levels and also the way people see paladin as something to take a few levels in then drop.

LoH is a bit more so so for me. LoH's real issue is that it's not governed by a stat you can really focus on. Sure at low levels the healing is also painfully bad and maybe it's a little less than solid at upper levels. But paladins gets spells for that. it always struck me as a backup more than a main healing ability. Still i am playing with this to a degree beyond the main stat and usability issues i outlined.

5. Fair point on the range. Adjusted in response.

6. Maybe i'm misunderstanding the divine section, but i thought that was for gods, which epic destinies aside, aren't a normal part of campaign's, at least on a direct level?

As far as spellcasting goes; My aim isn't to let you compete with cleric's directly as a spellcaster, except in very limited ways. It's to integrate the spellcasting capabilities you do have more directly into the class so that they serve as a valid utility feature alongside the martial functions. Even with quicken spell a cleric has to choose in a fight to some degree, a paladin can throw their trick in alongside their normal martial capabilities. The other core factor is that their spontaneous casters now, so they can spend their much more limited spell slots on exactly the spells they need, as they need them.

7. I'm treating the mount as a throw it in. Literally it's a free extra that there for pure lore/fluff reasons. I'm no longer treating it as a defining feature from a power progression PoV.

8. Thats more or less my thinking on remove disease.

9. That's more or less where I've gone to some degree. As noted the spellcasting is more about the better integration and versatility alongside melee than the totally equivalent spell list or spells per day or maximum spell level, (I hit the DC's and caster level though). he other core point is bringing in some solid and capable martial capabilities alongside this. In particular almost any mid to high level paladin will be walking around with heavy armour on and they have some solid variety options between healing, damage, or meatshield. This gives them a lot of tricks a cleric multi-class absolutely cannot match.

10. My main thrust with this thread is to be sure i hadn't missed anything since my fix is 80% written. I didn't want to post it and be told i missed the biggest problem. Though like the monk the flaws are kind of obvious, if rather more serious.

Your point about feats is interesting though perhaps displays a different view of them than me. Whilst feats can be used to empower a character directly, for most classes the class should be the primary source of power with feats being methods of slightly varying things. Customisation over power as it where. That said i've already handed out a few free feats at class levels to ensure people don't have to take them with specific builds so...


@Zero: Well holy wizard is exactly what a cleric is. Their a priest with a direct connection to their god which allows them to manifest appropriate powers to devastating effect. Their a living font of their deities divine power and very directly connected to them. A Paladin is a powerful warrior with a degree of faith and piety sufficient enough for their god to grant them additional divine aid.

One is very much defined by their connection to their god and the power it grants them, take away their power and their a fairly poor fighter with no bonus feat's and less BAB. The other, even if you take away all that divine power is still an excellent warrior of no small measure of capability.

Their distinctly different concepts.

@RoyVG: This i where i disagree with probably a great many people. Many fictional paladin's aren't necessarily good looking, or great speakers. They're inspiring yes. But it's their faith, their piety and their feat's of arm's not their personality that drives good men to great heights. Thus i feel Charisma, whilst a very valid interpenetration, (if for no other reason than the one IRL person most people think of when you say paladin), isn't necessarily the best to represent the many variations that exist. Though for much the same reason strength or constitution would be poor. You rarely find paladin's lacking in either wisdom or intelligence. Of the two stat's I prefer wisdom myself. So that's how I've built my re-write, has required some custom modifying of the turning rules for paladins, but that's not too arduous.

Deepbluediver
2013-04-03, 02:06 PM
Skills:

As a general skills-fix, rather than having it as class+Int modifier, I prefer to use Int bonus. Or to put it another way, the minimum value for skill points is zero (0)+whatever you get from your class.

I admit though, that's just the start. As you pointed out, since the paladin doesn't have any real reason to stack Intellect, doubling his skill points really just means going from 1 to 2.
By the same token, most of the "skill monkey" classes don't really have a lot of reason to stack Intellect either (beyond skill points, I mean).

I think that the simplest thing would be to increase the paladins skill-points per level to 4, and the best thing would be to rescale the skill-points per level entirely.

Something like:
4 points per level - heavy melee, most full casters
7 points per level - gishes, remaining casters
10 points per level - skill monkeys



BAB:

Your best bet to make BAB more valuable is to rewrite combat manuevers and feat-chains to give melee combat more options and power. I've got a few threads in my extended sig if you want inspiration.


Saves:

I never understood why they had weak Will saves. If the Ranger is a fighter-but-more-rogueish, then the paladin is the fighter-but-more-clericpriestly.

Give him a strong will save and scrap the Charisma-to-saves bit, IMO.


Proficiencies:

Eh, I really think you'd be better off fixing armor for all melee, but if you insist on class-only, then the quickest solution I can think of is to just give the paladin an ability to "bless" his armor or something, reducing it's ACP and movement penalty.

For shields, tanking isn't such a hot style, unless you want to give the paladin a whole bunch of shield-bash related stuff, which locks him into one particular role. Again, not optimal.


Spellcasting
I'm sure some one has already mentioned making all the paladins spellcasting key off of Charisma instead of Wisdom.

Also, I would suggest boosting their overall spells so they don't feel the need to stack their casting stat, which should decrease their MAD.

I've been debating ways to standardize casters, but for the paladin I would probably suggest something like this:

Spells Per Day
{table=head]Class Level|1|2|3|4|5
1st|1||||
2nd|2||||
3rd|2||||
4th|3||||
5th|3|1|||
6th|3|2|||
7th|4|2|||
8th|4|3|||
9th|4|3|1||
10th|4|3|2||
11th|5|4|2||
12th|5|4|3||
13th|5|4|3|1|
14th|5|4|3|2|
15th|5|5|4|2|
16th|6|5|4|3|
17th|6|5|4|3|1
18th|6|5|4|3|2
19th|6|5|5|4|2
20th|6|6|5|4|3[/table]

You can add 5th level spells, or simply leave them open for metamagic use.

Alternatively, scrap the spellcasting entirely and just give the paladin a whole pile of SL/SU abilities to fill in the dead-upper levels, which achieves the same thing.



Smite

I feel like smite should really be something significant, something that an evil target will FEAR.

Maybe either make it more deadly, such as giving it a vorpal-style effect, or craft a couple of modified versions of it to be like ToB manuevers.



Turn Undead

I'm in favor of replacing all clerics/paladins turn undead function with the channel-energy ability from pathfinder. It was a nice bit of flavor, I guess, but it seems to be along the same line of thinking from WotC that all clerics will be Pelor-worshipping healbots. There are tons of different dieties out there, even some of death/undeath. If you really want to keep this for the paladin, switch it to evil outsiders (demons, devils, etc) to differentiate it.



The Mount
I think mounted combat needs some tweaks, but overall the paladin can't relly on always having his mount, so I'm not certain how to approach that issue. I agree that the mount is nice, but not always the game-changer its made out to be. I think it would help if it improved over time in more significant wants than just HD. Something like gaining wings and a fly speed at higher levels or turning into a unicorn at higher levels (and yes, I'm aware how girly that sounds)

Maybe it would be better if you let the paladin choose a celestial-templated animal companion instead.



Curing Whatever

Since the paladin is such a roleplay-heavy class, maybe put roleplaying limits on these rather than mechanical ones. Like, let the paladin use it as often as he/she wants, but only on "allies" (which realy means party members).



The Oath
This is an RP issue, IMO. Anyone who wants to play a paladin should talk to the GM first, so the DM knows what the player will be aiming for, and the player knows what sort of RP functions that GM will throw at them.
Paladins can follow similar, but not identical codes of conduct.

Also, in an article on another site that read recently, they author pointed out that by strict interpretation, the ONLY thing that causes a paladin to fall is willfully commiting an evil act. Breaking your oath is frowned upon, but doesn't actually have any listed effects. Ditto with the "associating with evil creatures" line.

So all those stories about falling from accidentally picking up cursed blades, being charmed into evil, or not obeying the tyrant's stupidly evil laws where in fact, not just the DM being a ****, but being a WRONG ****.
As I said, being a paladin is all about the RP, and the more gentlemenly/less mechanical argeement the player and DM can come to, the better, IMO.



Thos are the major things that I'm thinking about for my own paladin fix that still keep it somewhat similar to the PHB version. To be completely honest, I think it needs even heavier changes (like being a PrC instead), but that's probably beyond the scope of your fix.

hamishspence
2013-04-03, 02:13 PM
Also, in an article on another site that read recently, they author pointed out that by strict interpretation, the ONLY thing that causes a paladin to fall is willfully commiting an evil act. Breaking your oath is frowned upon, but doesn't actually have any listed effects. Ditto with the "associating with evil creatures" line.

Ceasing to be lawful good, and "grossly violating the code of conduct" also count.

In older editions (including 3.0), they specifically stated (in the Atonement spell description) that a paladin who falls due to being compelled to commit an evil act, or "unwittingly" doing say, can get the powers back after atonement- so a paladin can in fact fall for that sort of thing- but a paladin who falls due to willingly committing an evil act, can never get their powers back.

In 3.5, the spell description says that the cleric need spend no XP when casting the spell on a paladin who fell for unwilling or unwitting acts- but must spend XP when they fell for willing evil acts.

T.G. Oskar
2013-04-03, 04:30 PM
As for no more skills, it's more that they have a decent list already, no one class should be able to cover all bases IMO, be it skill's or combat. In short i don't see any need to increase or decrease the list of skills.

Well, the Paladin certainly doesn't need to learn how to use magical devices, or search for secret doors/traps, or learn how to bind a rope. But, it might as well learn how to be intimidating (Intimidate =/= evil), and if the Paladin's gonna be the watchman, might as well have a decent degree of Listen and Spot. Note how 4E made Perception (the combination of Listen and Spot) stand a bit from the other skills, if only because everyone's gonna be subject to them eventually. Think of how the Paladin should be "ever vigilant against the forces of evil", and yet it can't really look OR hear as far. It won't be capable of doing it as well as, say, a Ranger, or a Rogue, or a Monk, who also have the benefit of stealth, but reflexively? It should be a thing to consider.


I didn't say divine grace wasn't good, but it's ultra early arrival compound the way all skills are concentrated at early levels and also the way people see paladin as something to take a few levels in then drop.

Let's go from the opposite direction, then. Consider if Divine Grace was the LAST ability of the Paladin. It's still great (Cha to saves), but it would be somewhat irrelevant compared to, say, a Cloak of Resistance, because that was what supported you so early.

This isn't really my argument, but it's an argument I've heard concerning my work, and thus I find it fair to extend it to you. If your concern is how it front-loads the Paladin, then limit it so that it's not automatically awesome at early levels. Perhaps it could start from 1st level, but only grant a +1 bonus to Charisma, which can increase as the Paladin increases its level (+1/2 levels, for example: if you reach Paladin 20, you'll get to apply up to 10 points of Charisma to all scores, but to reach Charisma 30 you need some investment...) Another is to delay, which is what I feel you'll incline towards, but it should be still somewhat earlier. I don't feel Divine Grace ever falls from relevance, but it is superb during the range of 6-10. That way, you can have your cake (Divine Grace at full strength) and eat it too (...without the concern of being dip-tastic).


LoH is a bit more so so for me. LoH's real issue is that it's not governed by a stat you can really focus on. Sure at low levels the healing is also painfully bad and maybe it's a little less than solid at upper levels. But paladins gets spells for that. it always struck me as a backup more than a main healing ability. Still i am playing with this to a degree beyond the main stat and usability issues i outlined.

That would be the point of "burst" healing. You can have wands of Cure Light Wounds covering you up, but when the going gets rough, Lay on Hands delivers a massive amount of healing at once, much like a Heal spell. It's best used for emergencies, rather than spread through the day. In that sense, it's less backup (as in, complementing your healing) and more backup (darn, things are gonna get rough; here, have a super-heal!).

My main concern is that this should have also been part of the Cleric, because they're (like it or not) the better healers around. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have their spells (though domains can pad up nicely for them), but it's important to notice that one of their roles will eventually end up being healing, and that should be a priority. Just not the priority (buffing should, but considering their nicer spells, some blasting and CC isn't really a bad idea for them).


Maybe i'm misunderstanding the divine section, but i thought that was for gods, which epic destinies aside, aren't a normal part of campaign's, at least on a direct level?

Originally, Divine feats made their appearance on two places: Defenders of the Faith (which dealt with options for Clerics and Paladins), and Deities and Demigods (the book that detailed the creation of deities). Thus, they were built with Clerics and Paladins in mind. 3.5 ran with it a bit further, straight from Complete Warrior, and added a lot of them in various sources. Aside from, say, Complete Divine, very few of these resources actually deal with deities at all; some (like the Fiendish Codices, deal with fiends of the Lower Planes, and aside from cultists and perhaps Orcus and one or two more fiends, none has access to turn/rebuke undead). These are perfect options for users of Turn/Rebuke Undead, as they offer incredibly good abilities (Divine Might and Divine Shield are always the target for judicious Paladins looking to boost their AC or damage rolls, for example).


As far as spellcasting goes; My aim isn't to let you compete with cleric's directly as a spellcaster, except in very limited ways. It's to integrate the spellcasting capabilities you do have more directly into the class so that they serve as a valid utility feature alongside the martial functions. Even with quicken spell a cleric has to choose in a fight to some degree, a paladin can throw their trick in alongside their normal martial capabilities. The other core factor is that their spontaneous casters now, so they can spend their much more limited spell slots on exactly the spells they need, as they need them.

[...]

That's more or less where I've gone to some degree. As noted the spellcasting is more about the better integration and versatility alongside melee than the totally equivalent spell list or spells per day or maximum spell level, (I hit the DC's and caster level though). he other core point is bringing in some solid and capable martial capabilities alongside this. In particular almost any mid to high level paladin will be walking around with heavy armour on and they have some solid variety options between healing, damage, or meatshield. This gives them a lot of tricks a cleric multi-class absolutely cannot match.

Even if you're not trying, the Paladin WILL compete with the Cleric by virtue of the concept of multiclassing.

Now, that doesn't mean you can't do stuff with a 4-level spellcasting progression, but it involves a larger amount of work. For example: if you're limited to 4 levels, you'll have to define if you're aiming for self-buffing, or if you wish to include options that require saving throws. The former and the latter imply you're padding the Paladin spell list with more (and fitting) spells, move spells from their places (because, really: by 11th level, Dispel Magic starts to fail every level it passes, unless you can pad the bonus a bit further), and generally have a good idea on what you wish to do with spellcasting. The difference is that, with the former, you have a defined limit on what spells you plan for the Paladin, while on the latter, you have the problem of low DCs.

The options I offered ("invocations", auras, etc.) were in case you felt spellcasting wasn't just viable for Paladins. No matter what you do, unless you do nothing short of a miracle for their spell list, Paladins will always have some degree of trouble when inevitably compared with the Cleric. That doesn't mean Paladin spells suck (most of their 4th level spells in Core and the Spell Compendium are phenomenal), but that they need some love.

Regarding Cleric multiclasses: do not deny the power of Cleric spellcasting. While it may not seem like it, Cleric spells can be pretty surprising. Their evocations are almost always better than the Wizards (Flame Strike and its "half divine damage", Holy Smite with added blindness effect and its variants, Miracle), and it has a superb range of protective and buffing spells (Shield of Faith, Entropic Shield, Sanctuary, Magic Vestment, Freedom of Movement, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Blade Barrier; all of them are Core spells of 6th level or lower). The Paladin won't stand from the Cleric because or despite its spellcasting; it will stand on its own when, if compared to a Fighter/Cleric multiclass (or worse, a Crusader/Cleric multiclass), it performs reasonably well and STILL have something to make it distinguish.

Spontaneous spellcasting is a great idea, though. Battle Blessing, on the other hand, is both a blessing and a curse (and not a blessing merely because it's what it says on the name); it's a blessing because it improves the action economy of Paladins, but a curse because it feels like feat tax.


Your point about feats is interesting though perhaps displays a different view of them than me. Whilst feats can be used to empower a character directly, for most classes the class should be the primary source of power with feats being methods of slightly varying things. Customisation over power as it where. That said i've already handed out a few free feats at class levels to ensure people don't have to take them with specific builds so...


I emphasize the idea about feats for a very specific reason: it's somewhat less obvious that Paladins are horribly feat-starved.

For once, they have to compete with all other melee classes. Core-only, you have the Fighter, the Barbarian, the Ranger, and to an extent the Monk and the Rogue. Of all those, the only one who *might* have less of an edge regarding the Paladin is the Rogue: the Fighter has a wealth of bonus feats, the Barbarian doesn't need that many feats because its build is pretty specific (Power Attack, or if expanding to other options, boosting Intimidate or even dabbling in ranged combat through Brutal/Power Throw or Whirling Frenzy + archery line), the Ranger gets bonus feats for a specific style, and the Monk ALSO has bonus feats (disregarding for a moment the Monk's own problems, the fact that they get more feats than the Paladin and without the need to qualify for them is actually a plus). Just inclined towards fighting, they're lacking.

Now, add the spellcasting predicament. In this, they share a problem with Rangers: they have limited spellcasting, so that makes them fair game for metamagic feats, even if they won't make the better use of them. If spellcasting (or metamagic) is improved to the point that it becomes viable to Paladins (and Rangers, and all other partial casters), then that's a whole suite of feats that the Paladin has access to.

Now, add Divine feats. Of those, only three classes have an innate access to it: Cleric, Paladin, and Dread Necromancer (from Heroes of Horror). That's yet another set of feats they have access to, and a pretty big one.

Now, add Domain feats (from Complete Champion). All classes have access to them, but only Clerics, Paladins and Dread Necromancers have the innate ability to use them more than once. Some of these (barring Knowlege Devotion) can be activated by expending daily uses of Turn Undead (or Rebuke, in the case of Dread Necros and evil Clerics), and a good deal of them (Knowledge, Travel, Animal IMO) are really good.

That doesn't include the set of feats that are paladin-specific in one way or another (Grace of the Gods, Hands of a Healer, Battle Blessing, Strength of Conviction...), which add yet another layer of feats to the mix.

Now, this alone isn't an argument: all classes have a lot of class-specific, feature-specific (Wild feats for Druids, Ambush feats for Rogues and Ninjas, the Stunning Fist feat chain for Monks and characters with Stunning Fist), but Paladins have another complication: while most of the other classes can pick their feats and make a decent build, Paladins need to dabble a bit further to make their feats worthwhile. A Paladin could easily attempt to get the typical Power Attack line (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper), but that's four feats of the seven feats it has access to, and has focused on dealing damage at the expense of its mount (which gains no benefit from Leap Attack or Shock Trooper), its spells, its smite (it requires a standard action, can't be used on a charge unless by means of Charging Smite), and requires a focus on Strength that is restricted by the class' dependence on Wisdom or Charisma. Once all is said and done, you're left with three feats, and a feat chain that doesn't feel integrated to the mix. In this case, they would have to add more feats to improve other aspects: perhaps a bit of Battle Blessing so that you can cast spells to boost your AC or attack bonus, perhaps Divine Might to boost your damage output...and eventually, you run out of feats to add. And the trick enters game VERY late on, in comparison to a Fighter (which can get it as early as 6th level) or a Barbarian (who has Rage to add on top of it, and based on its PrC selection, can further integrate the feats into its build).

This is mostly academical, as you've expressed the intention of adding more feats. However, it's important to address exactly WHY the Paladin is in need of more feats; of all the classes in the PHB, it depends on the strength of a multitude of things, instead of just one, and feats are a great deal of this multitude. It's actually a problem that's natural to every class (there are too little feat slots for the wealth of feats you'd like to take, period), but they're more noticeable (as you mentioned) on the Paladin, because you depend heavily on your feats to form your build, in comparison to other classes whose class features hold a great deal of their build's power (such as Clerics and Wizards whose spellcasting is the basis of their power, or Druids who also get an animal companion and Wild Shape on top of that). It's important because, while your idea is sound (the class should hold the weight of the build's power, not the feats), early 3.5 (and even late 3.5) places a lot of importance on feats to hold the build's power weight. The class may be buffed in such a way that it can hold the build's weight, but feats will make that weight more significant.

Deepbluediver
2013-04-03, 05:48 PM
Ceasing to be lawful good, and "grossly violating the code of conduct" also count.

My mistake then. I must have misremembered exactly what it says. It still seems like less than the "paladins must only associate with other paladin-like people" interpretation that I think lead to so many problems.

I still think that a more moderate application of the paladin's oath and goals is appropriate. Afterall, aren't mercy, justice, understanding, compassion, and forgiveness also virtues that are considered "good"?

hamishspence
2013-04-03, 05:52 PM
Indeed. And BoED goes out of its way to emphasise those. It has its problems- but that isn't one of them.

Manual of the Planes also describes Celestia- where Law and Good meet- as both justice and mercy.

Carl
2013-04-03, 07:19 PM
@DeepBlueDiver:

1. I'd just make it so that negative Int modifiers are ignored. But that's a discussion for another thread.

2. Well it depends, you can represent it with good saves, or you can tie it in with class features that boost everything. As for BAB and Profficencies. Well manoeuvres aren't something i like. Whilst i understand why they see so much use, (their a cross class applicable fix to many melee issues that evades the need to re-write a good chuck of core), they're always struck me as a patch rather than a proper fix. As a patch their acceptable, as a fix they're being lazy in your design. As such i peffer to fix things other ways if possible, even if i acknowledge their not lazy in most cases.

My main thrust here is self contained fixing, so I'd rather handle Heavy Armour internal to the fix. Besides even if Heavy Armour was viable, so long as it wasn't overpowered i'd absolutely be giving Paladins a boost. Of all the core base classes they stand out as iconic heavy armour wearers and should be able to laugh in the faces of the other users capability wise.

3. My spellcasting fix is fairly different but trust me you'll haven enough power. In fact i'm expecting people to say i need to pare back tbh.

4. I don't want to dole out details of my changes piecemeal, but ATM smite is set up so you've got an always active low level passive form, but can trade in a spell use for a better form. With grand spells giving you a really big boost for a round. Turn undead, i don't want to go re-writing core here any more than necessary.

5. Like i said already got an answer to the mount and I've handled the cure spells in a way that keeps them available without stepping on the local cleric totally. As for the Oath. When i mention an oath myself I'm talking about a separate class feature from the code of conduct.

@Oskar:

1. Oh I'm not arguing with that, just i have a strong tendency to try and play to 2if it ain't broke don;t fix it". Caution is often my biggest weakness.

2. That's going too far the other way though and represents the same issue. One of extreme's. Your still looking at decent saves around level 6 atm, which is far enough in to keep multi-classers from snaffling for it idly whilst keeping it early.

I agree sometimes you need to scale it as you suggest, i'm just not sure this is one of them.

3. No question the cleric is a better healer, and that's fine. But there's nothing wrong with a paladin having backup capabilities. You do have to be careful not to overdo it though, (i'm looking at you Warlords Battlecry 2 High Elf Paladin). I think i've got a good balance. A 20 Paladin can probably very nearly substitute for a Cleric, but only for a limited time, (though she can make rooms full of undead scream in pure terror).

4. Maybe i'm miss-reading it but the SRD says this about divine feats:


Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats.

Since a Paladin or a cleric are servants of deities, not deities themselves i don't see how they qualify. Though obviously if there's non-SRD stuff that does allow them to use them. Well fair enough. But i don't know anything about that nor can i balance around it.

5. Well tbh i'm using a totally non-standard system not based on spell levels. The whole concept of spell levels is fundamentally flawed for part caster types anyway. Save DC's are also handled adequately. One of the first issues with my system i spotted and fixed.

As for multi-classing. Someone wanting a bit more spellcasting power won't get much out of cleric over a 6+ paladin without a lot of cleric levels since a Paladins lowest tier of spells are all "at will any number of times per day". These cover most of the non-top power current paladin spells plus a few similar cleric ones. A low level cleric will have better healing and a few other niche area's, plus earlier initial access, but for basic low level stuff besides that the paladin is just as good with the ability to use them in combat more freely. It's not until mid levels that a cleric gets a clear advantage as they now have more spells and broader lists compared to a paladins smaller and fewer but more strongly backed by martial spellcasting. So a cleric multi-class is best for the warrior lite paladin types who want more and better healing, rather than the nastier martial tricks of higher level paladins. It's a valid tradeoff. But there's no superiority there.

If you want i can PM you an early copy of the spellcasting rules. Don;t want to give out too much picemeal publicly and progress is a bit slow atm due to work.

6. First don't even worry about metamagic, Paladins don't get them now. That might sound like a bad trade-off, but given what paladins can do now it actually works out as a valid trade-off. At the same time a large part of the class fix is giving you less reasons to go after certain feats. Some are still going to be popular obviously, but power attack is unlikely to be one of them any-more unless the things it's pre-requisites for appeal to you. You just have way too many damage dealing options now for power attack to reliably add that much overall. It loses a lot of it's draw in effect. There are also a number of protective and/or healing options too so if you want to be a tough to kill badass or a warrior lite band aid box you can take those routes too, making feats there much less valuable.

Anyway i need to write more fix less forum ;p.

invinible
2013-04-03, 08:12 PM
I feel these 3 changes need to happen for a Paladin to work as a core class:

1. Instead of losing Paladin abilities by not being lawful good, get minor synergy bonus for being either lawful or good which changes to a major synergy bonus if both lawful and good.

2. The only characters a Paladin should never be on the same party as are those that the Paladin knows is intentionally ruining the Paladin's mission(s) and has actively wants th(at)(ose) mission(s) to fail.

and 3. The only way for atonement to permanently not work for a Paladin to regain Paladin class features is if that Paladin was abusing the atonement feature so that player can get away with being a jerk without letting others be able to call that player on it.