High Level Spellcasters Background Fight

[Shadowknight12]

Short summary of topic: I have to come up with a background fight between five spellcasters, all of which are high level (and NPCs) so that my player can kill one of them (the Big Bad) while she's distracted. I need your help to come up with spells cast during the fight, round by round.

Explanation:

The player is a rogue/beguiler heading for arcane trickster, and is also a Tiny pixie with no LA (houseruled). I expect he will have reached arcane trickster levels by the time this fight takes place, though I don't know exactly what his level will be (though it will be at least 10, if not more).

To avoid boring everyone with unnecessary campaign details, I have a Big Bad who researched a custom spell based on Trap the Soul, which traps souls but also turns the leftover bodies into soulless automatons under the caster's control. The Big Bad has cast this spell on her two brothers, who are also spellcasters. These three spellcasters are going to be opposed by two very fragile older elven women, who will keep the Big Bad busy while my player exploits the distractions to kill the Big Bad through unexpected trickery (I will let him be creative).

Objective:

What I want is suggestions/instructions on how I can produce a "believable" fight between the two groups, round by round. This will be the "background" while my player finds a way to exploit the distractions and kill the Big Bad.

Ideally, I want a credible threat, so that the player doesn't feel like I'm having the NPCs hold back (it's supposed to be a climatic fight, after all), but without excessive optimising (so that he can feel like he CAN contribute). "Mid-Op" would be ideal.

The point is to portray both groups as evenly matched, so that my player's actions are vital and utterly necessary for the big bad to be defeated.

An example of what I'm looking for:


Round 1: Big Bad opens with [spell], has Soulless Brother 1 cast [spell] and Soulless Brother 2 cast [mystery]. Necromancer counters with [class ability] and Cleric casts [spell].

Round 2: See above.

Etc.

10-15 rounds or so would be ideal, though I know only the first 5 rounds really matter. I just want to have a good buffer in case my player (who plays very cautiously) takes a while to realise he's supposed to act (or spends a lot of rounds preparing/waiting for the right opening).

NPC Builds:

These stats are before magical buffs. No magic items except for stat boosting ones (periapt of wisdom, cloak of charisma, headband of intellect and gloves of dexterity). Pretty much everyone here has the Frail flaw. Some of them might have Feeble, Vulnerable, Non-Combatant, Shaky, Unreactive and the like. I like to cripple my NPCs somewhat.

Evil Side:

Big Bad: NE female half-fey human (no LA) Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Dread Witch 5. Focused Specialist (Enchantment). HP 73, AC 17, DR 5/cold iron, base attack +8, Init +9. Speed 40 ft, Fly 60 ft. Str 12, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 28, Wis 10, Cha 26. Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +14. Barred Schools: Evocation, Abjuration, Conjuration. No familiar.

Important feats: Dark Speech, Violate Spell, Mobile Spellcasting, Alacritous Cogitation.

Caster style: Prefers to mind-control and trap souls. If impossible, will use most efficiently brutal method at her disposal to eliminate the opposition. Is not afraid to spend all her 9th level spells immediately. Does not hold back.

Soulless Brother 1: LN male half-fey human (no LA). Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10. Focused Specialist (Transmutation). Barred schools: Enchantment, Illusion and Necromancy. No familiar. Notable abilities: Low Charisma, Low Strength, High Intelligence. Notable skills: Knowledge(Arcana), Spellcraft, Craft(Alchemy), Decipher Script. Most commonly used spells: Flesh to Stone, Transmute Rock to Mud, Transmute Mud to Rock, Water to Acid, Vitrify and Disintegrate.

Soulless Brother 2: CN male half-fey human (no LA). Sorcerer 4/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 6. No familiar. Notable abilities: Low Wisdom, High Charisma. Notable skills: Spellcraft, Craft(Alchemy), Diplomacy, Bluff. Most commonly used spells: Charm Person, Invisibility and Fly. Most commonly used mysteries: Sight Eclipsed, Feign Life and Step Into Shadow.

The Big Bad can directly control both soulless brothers to act exactly as she specifies, and they act on their own action count.

Good Side:

Necromancer: Venerable LG female homebrewed elf (+2 Int -2 Con) Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Incantatrix 7. Focused Specialist (Necromancy). HP 61, AC 11, base attack +9, Init -6. Speed 15 ft. Str 4, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 34, Wis 14, Cha 14. Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +20. Barred Schools: Evocation, Illusion, Enchantment, Conjuration. No familiar.

Important feats: Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Reach Spell, Twin Spell, Chain Spell, Split Ray, Arcane Thesis (Slay Living, Finger of Death), Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy), Craft Contingent Spell, Alacritous Cogitation, Residual Magic.

Caster style: Shuns all the "unsavoury" aspects of necromancy, and heavily favours abjuration as well. Sticks to death effects and negative energy (Slay Living, Finger of Death, Enervation, Energy Drain, etc), is very fond of protections to make up for her extreme fragility.

Cleric: Middle-aged TN female Outsider(native) {originally homebrewed elf (+2 Wis, -2 Con)} Cleric 10/Contemplative 10. HP 93, AC 9, DR 10/magic, SR 25, base attack +12, Init +0. Speed 30 ft. Str 8, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 32, Cha 12. Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +26. Domains: Oracle (SpC), Destiny (CtS), Magic (PHB) and Moon (SpC). No turn undead (exchanged for Divine Counterspelling).

Important feats: Improved Counterspell, Spontaneous Domains, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Innate Spell, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Sudden Extend, Sudden Silent, Sudden Still.

Caster style: Favours the school of divination. Likes to anticipate an opponent's moves and counter them as simply as possible. Does not like to use [evil] spells, but will do so if she absolutely must.

Specifications:

All official splatbooks allowed. You are free to suggest magical items as well, as I loathe equipping my NPCs with them (beyond basic ability-boosting ones), if you so desire.

I do not have a sheet for the two soulless brothers. Feel free to make up one of your own if you want. I calculate NPC HP as half+1.

I do have a sheet for the other three. I didn't want to overwhelm the post with information, so if there's something vital missing, let me know and I will add it to the OP.

Since the battle is supposed to be more "show" than substance, I'd like to see spells/strategies that are more flavourful than excessively optimised, but still optimised enough to be a credible threat. The Big Bad, for example, should cast truly vile spells, while the necromancer is an extremely frail old lady who stays the hell out of melee.

Thanks in advance for your help! :smallbiggrin:

[Randomguy]

I do not have a sheet for the two soulless brothers. Feel free to make up one of your own if you want. I calculate NPC HP as half+1.

If you calculated HP this way your HP values should be WAY higher. Your BBEG should be getting 3 hp per level, and is getting about 1 hp per level.

Both sides start with prebuffs, right? Since with HP values like this, without prebuffs whoever wins initiative will win in one round. Maybe it would take more than one round if both sides resorted exclusively to 1st level spells.

[Karnith]

If you calculated HP this way your HP values should be WAY higher. Your BBEG should be getting 3 hp per level, and is getting about 1 hp per level.
Everyone has amusingly low Con scores, for some reason. Like, Con 4 for the big bad and 6 for the 20th-level cleric.

Also, the problem with making a fight like this last for more than about one round is that both sides have a lot of Save-or-Dies - the necromancer, enchanter, and one of the soulless brothers, according to your tactics, rely on them - and that any amount of damage at all will kill someone because everyone has so few HP.

[Shadowknight12]

If you calculated HP this way your HP values should be WAY higher. Your BBEG should be getting 3 hp per level, and is getting about 1 hp per level.

She has the Frail flaw and the Quick trait, which give her a -2 per level to HP. She gets 1 HP per level, and 2 HP at first level. All her classes have a d4 HD.


Both sides start with prebuffs, right? Since with HP values like this, without prebuffs whoever wins initiative will win in one round. Maybe it would take more than one round if both sides resorted exclusively to 1st level spells.

Prebuffs are definitely okay, yes, and that's a pretty good way to waste a few rounds. Much like V's fight with Zz'dtri, it could easily go "Slay Living!" "Death Ward! Dominate Person!" "Mind Blank." I would be totally down for that.


Everyone has amusingly low Con scores, for some reason.

The necromancer gets a -6 to Con due to her age and a further -2 for being an elf. She started with a 12.

The cleric started with a 10 and got a -2 for being an elf (she would've had an extra -1 due to her age, but there's a Contemplative class feature that makes her immune to the downsides of aging).

The Big Bad started with a 12 Con and got a -2 from the Half-Fey template. Her brothers had an average Con, so a -2 would make it "low Con" the way I saw it.


Also, the problem with making a fight like this last for more than about one round is that both sides have a lot of Save-or-Dies - the necromancer, enchanter, and one of the soulless brothers, according to your tactics, rely on them - and that any amount of damage at all will kill someone because everyone has so few HP.

Isn't the prevalence of save-or-dies making HP more and more irrelevant? If a spellcaster can kill you on a failed save, HP is kind of not that useful.

[Randomguy]

Everyone has amusingly low Con scores, for some reason.

No, I'm taking the amusingly low Con scores into account. With the exception of the good Necromancer they've all got too few hp. For example, even if the cleric was a cloistered cleric then she should still have at least 40 hp.

[Karnith]

No, I'm taking the amusingly low Con scores into account. With the exception of the good Necromancer they've all got too few hp. For example, even if the cleric was a cloistered cleric then she should still have at least 40 hp.Huh, you're right. Sorry about that.

The necromancer gets a -6 to Con due to her age and a further -2 for being an elf. She started with a 12.

The cleric started with a 10 and got a -2 for being an elf (she would've had an extra -1 due to her age, but there's a Contemplative class feature that makes her immune to the downsides of aging).

The Big Bad started with a 12 Con and got a -2 from the Half-Fey template. Her brothers had an average Con, so a -2 would make it "low Con" the way I saw it.
I mean, I get why they have the low Con scores, it's just that they won't be very effective combatants with so few HP. Like, the LG necromancer/incantatrix? Metamagic'd enervations from her will insta-kill the big bad on HP damage alone. And your divination-focused cleric ought to know from her spells that a Flame Strike (or something) from her would just kill the big bad (she could at least tell the necromancer, who could cast acid fog or something). Or she could cast Divine Power (etc.) and beat the evil wizard to death.

[Shadowknight12]

No, I'm taking the amusingly low Con scores into account. With the exception of the good Necromancer they've all got too few hp. For example, even if the cleric was a cloistered cleric then she should still have at least 40 hp.

Almost all my NPC spellcasters (not just these 3) have the Frail flaw. :smalltongue:

Sytlistic choice, I guess. I have a mid-level Old elven NPC druid with no wildshape or animal companion whose main job is to spout exposition and be exceedingly fragile, for example.


I mean, I get why they have the low Con scores, it's just that they won't be very effective combatants with so few HP. Like, the LG necromancer/incantatrix? Her metamagic'd enervations will insta-kill the big bad on HP damage alone.

Sorry, I missed your previous edit, but I added in an edit of my own that I thought a prevalence of save-or-dies tended to make HP irrelevant. I mean, if spellcaster duels are decided by "who acts first" and "who fails a save" instead of "whose HP reaches 0 first", it seems to me that HP is largely irrelevant.

Though I suppose it wouldn't be a hassle to up everyone's Con by 6 with a Periapt of Constitution +6.

[Karnith]

Sorry, I missed your previous edit, but I added in an edit of my own that I thought a prevalence of save-or-dies tended to make HP irrelevant. I mean, if spellcaster duels are decided by "who acts first" and "who fails a save" instead of "whose HP reaches 0 first", it seems to me that HP is largely irrelevant.

Though I suppose it wouldn't be a hassle to up everyone's Con by 6 with a Periapt of Constitution +6.
Yeah, sorry, I edit things a lot.

HP may be largely irrelevant if everyone is focused on save-or-dies, but characters with the intelligence and magic that yours have access to really ought to know about these weaknesses (i.e. that the evil wizard is incredibly fragile) and plan accordingly. A Power Word: Kill, for example, will end everybody's day (heck, a Power Word: Pain would do it) if Mind Blank is taken care of. Hail of Stone would be similarly effective, and actual, level-appropriate blasting (even if your characters don't normally do it) would be deadly. So, it's kind of a verisimilitude thing that's bothering me.

[Shadowknight12]

Yeah, sorry, I edit things a lot.

HP may be largely irrelevant if everyone is focused on save-or-dies, but characters with the intelligence and magic that yours have access to really ought to know about these weaknesses and plan accordingly. A Power Word: Kill, for example, will end everybody's day (heck, a Power Word: Pain would do it) if Mind Blank is taken care of. Hail of Stone would be similarly effective, and actual blasting (even if your characters don't normally do it) would be deadly. So, it's kind of a verisimilitude thing that's bothering me.

No problem! :smallsmile:

And what would you consider an adequate solution? I assumed frail spellcasters just cast a bunch of defensive buffs every morning after preparing spells to shore up their ever-dwindling defences due to old age and general bodily decay.

Would the suggested Amulet of Health +6 do the trick? Or perhaps specific magic items?

[Karnith]

No problem! :smallsmile:

And what would you consider an adequate solution? I assumed frail spellcasters just cast a bunch of defensive buffs every morning after preparing spells to shore up their ever-dwindling defences due to old age and general bodily decay.

Would the suggested Amulet of Health +6 do the trick? Or perhaps specific magic items?
Well, an item with a Con bonus would certainly do the trick, especially when you are at medium- or low-op levels. Polymorphing or Shapechanging (assuming the spells aren't banned) into something with a big Con score is another way to do it.

For the Big Bad (since your LG necromancer probably wouldn't be interested), would she ever considered lichdom (or one of the myriad other way to become undead)? That would up her HD to d12s and make her huge Con penalty go away. Plus, liches get their own fear aura, which is thematic.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, an item with a Con bonus would certainly do the trick, especially when you are at medium- or low-op. Polymorphing or Shapechanging (assuming the spells aren't banned) into something with a big Con score is another way to do it.

For the Big Bad (since your LG necromancer probably wouldn't be interested), has she ever considered lichdom (or one of the myriad other way to become undead)? That would up her HD to d12s and make her huge Con penalty go away.

My player loathes shapechanging and polymorphing (outside really specific instances, like Baleful Polymorph), and I want to give him an interesting fight, not something he'll be like "Meh, whatever, lost interest after she cast Shapechange." So I will update the OP with the +6 Con bonus on everyone involved.

Well, the BBEG has so many deceptions going on that being secretly undead wouldn't be too unbelievable. My main problems are that A) wouldn't that make it easier for the necromancer to use spells like Undeath to Death and the like on her? and B) It'd make her immune to Sneak Attack, which somewhat undercuts options for my player. Though I could reward him with a Truedeath Crystal sometime soon to take care of that, I suppose.

What type of undead would you suggest? I like the lich angle, the BBEG has a thing for soul magic and unspeakably evil spells, so it would definitely fit. Though vampire and ghost look intriguing too, since they would give her a greater breadth of abilities that key off her (unused) Charisma (and I'm sure there's a spell that gives corporeality to ghosts).

[Randomguy]

Alright; some prebuffs for Team Good:

Since both of them are very fond of preperations and defences, they'll have loads of prebuffs. It'll also burn through their higher level spell slots and make the fight last longer.

Persistent (Via Incantatrix) Bear's Endurance on each: This will buff up HP some and make them less fragile.
Mind Blank on each, cast by the incantatrix.
Magic Circle Against Evil on each.
Energy Immunity (SpC) against all elements on each, or, if not possible, Protection From Energy on each and one Mass Resist Energy for the both of them.
Absorption on the Incantatrix.
Foresight on each.
Greater Mage Armour or possibly Greater Luminous Armour on each.
Either Overland Flight or Elemental Body (Air) (SpC) on the Incantatrix.
Stormrage (SpC) on the cleric.
Both Sheletered Vitality and Death Ward on both, cast by the cleric.
Superior Resistance (SpC) on both.
Spell Turning on the Cleric.
False Life on each.


Normally I would suggest Summoned Monsters being a huge part of this battle, but the 2 strongest casters on either side banned conjuration, and the cleric is pretty much a designated counterspeller so she can't really add to that. The brothers can still summon up some things, though.

The cleric will spend each round readying an action to counterspell and casting a quickened spell, which will be a healing spell when necessary or a quickened blasting spell if possible, something like Sound Burst or Spiritual Weapon. All the clerics slots that aren't used for buffs should be spent on quickened healing and blasting spells and also Wall spells and some other battlefield control, as well as some Greater Dispels for when she runs out of Divine Counterspells.

[Douglas]

With hit points that low, pretty much the first attack of any kind that isn't negated entirely will kill someone. The only way casters like this would ever survive battle is by thoroughly comprehensive pre-cast defensive buffs and immediate action counter/escapes. For this battle to last more than practically a blink of an eye, everyone involved will have to be pretty damn close to invincible because of their buffs.

I can think of two ways to involve the player in such a battle in the decisive role:
1) They're all spellcasters, he's the only weapon user. Leave weapon attacks as the one major hole in their defenses.
2) Action economy.

I would recommend a combination. Craft the battle such that at least one of the bad guys is having to actively spend actions on defense. Make his active action-costing defense the only one he's got that can protect against weapon attacks. It will need to be versatile enough to also protect against spells; immediate action stuff would work well for this, as he could have two different immediate action defenses and select which one to use on the spot when attacked.

As long as the player stands and watches, both sides are stalemated, unable to break each others' defenses. When the player attacks, if he chooses his target well, he will either strike someone who already spent his action blocking an NPC or absorb his target's blocking action so an NPC can get an attack through unblocked, depending on when in the round he strikes.

I don't have time to come up with more specific and detailed recommendations right now, but perusing Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138) might help compile an appropriate list of immunity buffs. The whole thing would obviously be going way too far, even if your NPCs had the resources to be capable of it, but you can select just the defenses you need to make the fight work.

[Shadowknight12]

Alright; some prebuffs for Team Good:

Since both of them are very fond of preperations and defences, they'll have loads of prebuffs. It'll also burn through their higher level spell slots and make the fight last longer.

Persistent (Via Incantatrix) Bear's Endurance on each: This will buff up HP some and make them less fragile.
Mind Blank on each, cast by the incantatrix.
Magic Circle Against Evil on each.
Energy Immunity (SpC) against all elements on each, or, if not possible, Protection From Energy on each and one Mass Resist Energy for the both of them.
Absorption on the Incantatrix.
Foresight on each.
Greater Mage Armour or possibly Greater Luminous Armour on each.
Either Overland Flight or Elemental Body (Air) (SpC) on the Incantatrix.
Stormrage (SpC) on the cleric.
Both Sheletered Vitality and Death Ward on both, cast by the cleric.
Superior Resistance (SpC) on both.
Spell Turning on the Cleric.
False Life on each.

Wow! This was very comprehensible and frankly quite excellent. Thank you for taking the time to compile this! I am familiar with most of these spells, so it shouldn't be too difficult for me to remember what they all do.


Normally I would suggest Summoned Monsters being a huge part of this battle, but the 2 strongest casters on either side banned conjuration, and the cleric is pretty much a designated counterspeller so she can't really add to that. The brothers can still summon up some things, though.

The cleric will spend each round readying an action to counterspell and casting a quickened spell, which will be a healing spell when necessary or a quickened blasting spell if possible, something like Sound Burst or Spiritual Weapon. All the clerics slots that aren't used for buffs should be spent on quickened healing and blasting spells and also Wall spells and some other battlefield control, as well as some Greater Dispels for when she runs out of Divine Counterspells.

Yeah, they could summon a few cannon fodder creatures to lengthen the fight, so that's a good idea. Since they're lower level, they won't be that challenging, but they will eat up Dismissal/Banishment/Finger of Death spells.

That's an excellent strategy for the cleric, that is quite precisely what she would do, thanks. The Walls were a very interesting idea, I definitely want some flashy battlefield effects too (which won't be much of a hindrance for my player, who is Tiny, can fly, has Greater Invisibility, Evasion and a superb Reflex save).

Excellent post!


With hit points that low, pretty much the first attack of any kind that isn't negated entirely will kill someone. The only way casters like this would ever survive battle is by thoroughly comprehensive pre-cast defensive buffs and immediate action counter/escapes. For this battle to last more than practically a blink of an eye, everyone involved will have to be pretty damn close to invincible because of their buffs.

This is how I assumed high-level spellcasters worked. Maybe I've been Doing It Wrong. :smallredface:


I can think of two ways to involve the player in such a battle in the decisive role:
1) They're all spellcasters, he's the only weapon user. Leave weapon attacks as the one major hole in their defenses.
2) Action economy.

That is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for with the thread. That is definitely a believable way to convince my player that his actions are indispensable to winning the fight and ending the BBEG's threat.


I would recommend a combination. Craft the battle such that at least one of the bad guys is having to actively spend actions on defense. Make his active action-costing defense the only one he's got that can protect against weapon attacks. It will need to be versatile enough to also protect against spells; immediate action stuff would work well for this, as he could have two different immediate action defenses and select which one to use on the spot when attacked.

As long as the player stands and watches, both sides are stalemated, unable to break each others' defenses. When the player attacks, if he chooses his target well, he will either strike someone who already spent his action blocking an NPC or absorb his target's blocking action so an NPC can get an attack through unblocked, depending on when in the round he strikes.

Yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I was aiming for. That is definitely a very believable way of sustaining a stalemate between five spellcasters of different power levels and specialties. I also like the idea of them wasting spells on each other as they are mostly unaware of what prebuffs they have cast before the fight, as per Randomguy's suggestions. I could very feasibly combine the two for a prolonged fight sequence.


I don't have time to come up with more specific and detailed recommendations right now, but perusing Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138) might help compile an appropriate list of immunity buffs. The whole thing would obviously be going way too far, even if your NPCs had the resources to be capable of it, but you can select just the defenses you need to make the fight work.

Wow, that was incredibly overwhelming. I am digesting it slowly, but thanks for bringing it to my attention! It has already given me ideas for certain protections in order to waste spells like Flesh to Stone, Poison and the like.

I do wonder at the Fire subtype. Solars don't have it, and it seems like a troubling buff, since it comes with Vulnerability to Cold. Surely if you can afford to gain Immunity to Cold, you could do the same with fire and avoid gaining the Fire subtype.

It's all highly appreciated, though! :smallbiggrin:

[Randomguy]

I can think of two ways to involve the player in such a battle in the decisive role:
1) They're all spellcasters, he's the only weapon user. Leave weapon attacks as the one major hole in their defenses.
2) Action economy.

I would recommend a combination. Craft the battle such that at least one of the bad guys is having to actively spend actions on defense. Make his active action-costing defense the only one he's got that can protect against weapon attacks. It will need to be versatile enough to also protect against spells; immediate action stuff would work well for this, as he could have two different immediate action defenses and select which one to use on the spot when attacked.

Yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I was aiming for. That is definitely a very believable way of sustaining a stalemate between five spellcasters of different power levels and specialties. I also like the idea of them wasting spells on each other as they are mostly unaware of what prebuffs they have cast before the fight, as per Randomguy's suggestions. I could very feasibly combine the two for a prolonged fight sequence.


The perfect spell for this purpose would be Wings of Cover, cast by the sorcerer brother. It's a sorcerer only spell, immediate action cast, blocks any single target attack and gives a cover bonus against area attacks I think. It's in either Races of the Dragon or Dragon Magic.
The sorcerer is also well equiped to annoy casters, as a Noctumancer. He'd probably use his Eldritch disruption power frequently.

[Douglas]

This is how I assumed high-level spellcasters worked. Maybe I've been Doing It Wrong. :smallredface:
Not "Wrong", exactly, but that's how high-level high-optimization spellcasters work. Near-total immunity builds are a hallmark of very high optimization, and you said you were targeting for mid-op.

If you do have near total immunity for these guys, that's quite high optimization. If you don't, they need enough hit points to take at least 3 or 4 attacks to not be very low optimization.

Just a bit of terminology/system spiel here, I think the high op approach you've been describing would make for a more interesting game if you do it right. High op can produce an indefinite stalemate for the player to resolve, mid op can't because sooner or later someone will run out of hit points.


I do wonder at the Fire subtype. Solars don't have it, and it seems like a troubling buff, since it comes with Vulnerability to Cold. Surely if you can afford to gain Immunity to Cold, you could do the same with fire and avoid gaining the Fire subtype.

It's all highly appreciated, though! :smallbiggrin:
That comes from the Elemental Body spell, which provides immunity to sleep and paralysis (plus several other things that are redundant with other buffs). I had to pick an elemental subtype, the spell doesn't let you get just the immunities without a subtype, and fire let me reduce the number of times I had to cast Energy Immunity.

[Shadowknight12]

The perfect spell for this purpose would be Wings of Cover, cast by the sorcerer brother. It's a sorcerer only spell, immediate action cast, blocks any single target attack and gives a cover bonus against area attacks I think. It's in either Races of the Dragon or Dragon Magic.
The sorcerer is also well equiped to annoy casters, as a Noctumancer. He'd probably use his Eldritch disruption power frequently.

Oh, I've heard of that spell before, actually. I'll look it up, it sounds pretty interesting and useful. Blocking attacks as an immediate action is a great way to let them swing powerful spells without fear of ending the battle too quickly.

Yes, I made him a Noctumancer precisely for that. If I find myself stumped as to how to counter something Team Good does, I can resort to the Noctumancer's class features.


Not "Wrong", exactly, but that's how high-level high-optimization spellcasters work. Near-total immunity builds are a hallmark of very high optimization, and you said you were targeting for mid-op.

If you do have near total immunity for these guys, that's quite high optimization. If you don't, they need enough hit points to take at least 3 or 4 attacks to not be very low optimization.

Just a bit of terminology/system spiel here, I think the high op approach you've been describing would make for a more interesting game if you do it right. High op can produce an indefinite stalemate for the player to resolve, mid op can't because sooner or later someone will run out of hit points.

The main problem is that my player knows more or less how high-op looks like (we've discussed the problems with D&D at length, so he knows what most of the "win" buttons are and who can push them), but he views high-op disdainfully (for reasons that are too varied and irrelevant to list here), and he also knows I have a tendency to aim for the "high" side of "mid to high op", so I don't want him to think I'm going easy on him just because he's mid-op.

On the other hand, I have to go easy on him because he's mid-op and doesn't have years of experience with the game under his belt. If I don't go easy on him, he'll be an ineffectual bystander while the NPCs do all the work (which is not fun) or, at worst, might actually get killed due to collateral damage (which is REALLY not fun). However, if I tip my hand too much, he's going to realise I'm going easy on him and he's not going to enjoy himself because he'll think I'm "letting him win" or declawing the challenge.

So I'm trying to strike a balance where it "looks" convincingly high-op to someone who knows what it looks like but has never dabbled in it, while still being mid-op enough that he can meaningfully contribute to the fight and deal the blow necessary to kill the BBEG.


That comes from the Elemental Body spell, which provides immunity to sleep and paralysis (plus several other things that are redundant with other buffs). I had to pick an elemental subtype, the spell doesn't let you get just the immunities without a subtype, and fire let me reduce the number of times I had to cast Energy Immunity.

Ahhh, I do see what you mean. I thought Freedom of Movement provided immunity to paralysis (the Freedom spell certainly does) while all sleep effects were either poisons, diseases or mind-affecting, so they would be by default covered by other buffs.

[TuggyNE]

Ahhh, I do see what you mean. I thought Freedom of Movement provided immunity to paralysis (the Freedom spell certainly does) while all sleep effects were either poisons, diseases or mind-affecting, so they would be by default covered by other buffs.

There's a PrC that gives a non-magical sleep attack; among other things, elves are not immune. (It's some sort of grapple-focused thing.)

[Shadowknight12]

There's a PrC that gives a non-magical sleep attack; among other things, elves are not immune. (It's some sort of grapple-focused thing.)

That sounds like the kind of obscure thing Craft Contingent Spell (Teleport) is for.

Though I didn't know that existed. And the more you know...

[Malachei]

Everybody should have Battlemagic Perception up, as well as Eyes of the Oracle. Then there's Celerity with Foresight active and Time Stop. Belts of Battle would be available to characters at this level, as well.

[Shadowknight12]

Everybody should have Battlemagic Perception up, as well as Eyes of the Oracle. Then there's Celerity with Foresight active and Time Stop. Belts of Battle would be available to characters at this level, as well.

Battlemagic Perception is indeed excellent, particularly for Team Good (or for Team Evil to counter the necromancer's death effects on the summons). Eyes of the Oracle looks really good, particularly the bit about the readied action.

I had definitely considered Celerity and Foresight, along with Time Stop. The Belt of Battle is a great suggestion, I have some sort of block when it comes to magic items, so I generally play spellcasters just to avoid dealing with them.

That did made me wonder: would it be considered an optimised strategy to used a prepared Time Stop to counterspell an enemy who has also prepared Time Stop? It would be suboptimal if either my Big Bad or my necromancer were spontaneous casters, but since they both know they're both wizards, would it make sense to sacrifice a casting of Time Stop to counterspell an enemy Time Stop?

[Malachei]

Battlemagic Perception is indeed excellent, particularly for Team Good (or for Team Evil to counter the necromancer's death effects on the summons). Eyes of the Oracle looks really good, particularly the bit about the readied action.

I had definitely considered Celerity and Foresight, along with Time Stop. The Belt of Battle is a great suggestion, I have some sort of block when it comes to magic items, so I generally play spellcasters just to avoid dealing with them.

That did made me wonder: would it be considered an optimised strategy to used a prepared Time Stop to counterspell an enemy who has also prepared Time Stop? It would be suboptimal if either my Big Bad or my necromancer were spontaneous casters, but since they both know they're both wizards, would it make sense to sacrifice a casting of Time Stop to counterspell an enemy Time Stop?

In general, brute-force counterspelling (i.e. dealing damage or hindering the enemy's ability to cast, via silence etc.) is considered superior to using greater dispel magic (etc.) or the exact same spell to counterspell.

[Shadowknight12]

In general, brute-force counterspelling (i.e. dealing damage or hindering the enemy's ability to cast, via silence etc.) is considered superior to using greater dispel magic (etc.) or the exact same spell to counterspell.

But... that's strange. Silence? I definitely get that one. That one is smart, though easily dispellable.

But blasting? I thought blasting was considered suboptimal. What's the point in preparing an Empowered, Maximised Freezing Sphere from a 6th level spell slot when Greater Dispel Magic is much more useful? And especially when we take into account energy immunity/resistance, and how you basically need to be a mailman sorcerer to be a decent blaster (and even then, it's still suboptimal). I mean, if you're going to waste a spell slot to disrupt an enemy's spellcasting and make them lose their spell, why not go with Dispel Magic and its ilk, rather than preparing a blasting spell that the target might end up being immune to?

[TuggyNE]

But blasting? I thought blasting was considered suboptimal. What's the point in preparing an Empowered, Maximised Freezing Sphere from a 6th level spell slot when Greater Dispel Magic is much more useful? And especially when we take into account energy immunity/resistance, and how you basically need to be a mailman sorcerer to be a decent blaster (and even then, it's still suboptimal). I mean, if you're going to waste a spell slot to disrupt an enemy's spellcasting and make them lose their spell, why not go with Dispel Magic and its ilk, rather than preparing a blasting spell that the target might end up being immune to?

It's one of those curious quirks, where blasting to kill things is useless at mid-op, but great at low- and high-op, and blasting merely to force high Concentration DCs is rather easier. All you need is something that's hard to resist or avoid and does let's say 30-50 damage to a single target. Even a measly fireball, at CL 10, can force an average 45+spell level Concentration DC, which is very difficult for NPCs. (Even if they save, it's still 27+spell level, which is no mean DC in itself.) More reasonably, Empowered orb of force is an average DC of 62+level, no save, from the same slot as a greater dispel magic… and if memory serves, it's not blocked by shield either.

And, if it works properly, you've not only countered their spell, but worked toward killing them. Hey, every bit of damage is nice, eh?

[Malachei]

It's one of those curious quirks, where blasting to kill things is useless at mid-op, but great at low- and high-op, and blasting merely to force high Concentration DCs is rather easier. All you need is something that's hard to resist or avoid and does let's say 30-50 damage to a single target. Even a measly fireball, at CL 10, can force an average 45+spell level Concentration DC, which is very difficult for NPCs. (Even if they save, it's still 27+spell level, which is no mean DC in itself.) More reasonably, Empowered orb of force is an average DC of 62+level, no save, from the same slot as a greater dispel magic… and if memory serves, it's not blocked by shield either.

And, if it works properly, you've not only countered their spell, but worked toward killing them. Hey, every bit of damage is nice, eh?

Excellent comments. Shield would not stop Orb of Force, however.

The big issue with brute-force counterspelling is finding a blasting spell that pierces the enemy's protections on a reliable basis.

A good way is dealing untyped damage. Another way is to use energy types that enemies are rarely immune against.

A third strategy is stacking metamagic to pierce defenses. For instance, lacing a [fire] spell with the Searing Spell Metamagic feat for a mere +1 spell level adjustment. There are numerous other ways, of course.

Often, blocking Line of Effect or simply preventing the enemy from completing his casting (Silence, other spells) is equal to achieving the same result with blasting.

Brute-force counterspelling by blasting excels when you have a reliable way to pierce the enemy's protections. Then it has the benefit of being fairly reliable, plus causing harm, which means the enemy may as well be dead real soon.

[Urpriest]

The problem with Brute-Force Counterspelling is not applicability, but action economy. In order to use Brute-Force Counterspelling, you have to ready an action, while any decent Counterspell build will be able to Counterspell as an Immediate.

[Malachei]

The problem with Brute-Force Counterspelling is not applicability, but action economy. In order to use Brute-Force Counterspelling, you have to ready an action, while any decent Counterspell build will be able to Counterspell as an Immediate.

Yes, but you have Celerity, Eyes of the Oracle and Belts of Battle for this. In a high-level spellcaster fight, it is mostly about the first, perhaps second counterspell, because the effect is dramatic and the fight will probably be decided quickly. Probably, you'll want a combination, because if everybody uses Celerity, the Initiative roll decides again (because the last Celerity user goes first). In this scenario, having extra free actions to counterspell via Battlemagic Perception, and other extras / action economy advantages via Belt of Battle and Eyes of Oracle etc. is paramount. So you might be using a triple strategy: Blocking LOE or hindering casting for spells you don't want to come down on yourself or your allies, brute-force blasting with extra actions and free counterspelling with free action from Battlemagic Perception and Immediate actions.