Cross-class skills and multiclassing question

[gooddragon1]

I'm finding 2 different answers:

Source 1: The PHB (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29003909/Multiclass_Skill_Point_Question)

A character takes a level in one class, then takes a level in a second class. If he spends skill points on a skill that isn't a class skill for his second class (but IS a class skill for the first class) does it count as a cross-class skill or not?
Yes, it would count as a crossclass skill. This can be found on page 60 of the 3.5 Players Handbook under "Advancing A Level".

Source 2: The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm)

Skills

If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.

Is there some sort of errata I'm unaware of that changed the entry in the PHB?

Also, one of the human paragon abilities becomes worthless if the SRD is right.

[TuggyNE]

There is no contradiction, and the SRD has it right. What's more, the Human Paragon class feature is not worthless.

This is because cross-class skills have two restrictions: maximum rank invested, and skill points needed per rank. If one of your classes has it listed as a class skill, though, the maximum rank is raised to the normal. Human Paragon removes the extra cost per rank for (normally) cross-class skills.

Example: Joff is a Human Rogue 1. He takes 4 ranks in Tumble, 4 ranks in Balance, and 4 ranks also in Bluff (as well as others that are not relevant). Then his next level is in Sorcerer; the cap for all these is 5 ranks, because they were class skills for rogue, but if he wants to raise Tumble or Balance, he needs to spend two skill points for one rank (Bluff is a Sorcerer class skill). Next, he takes a level in Human Paragon, and one of his ten selected class skills is Tumble, which he also designates for Adaptive Learning; he can now gain ranks in Tumble at the usual 1-for-1 rate in all future levels.

Does that make more sense?

[gooddragon1]

There is no contradiction, and the SRD has it right. What's more, the Human Paragon class feature is not worthless.

This is because cross-class skills have two restrictions: maximum rank invested, and skill points needed per rank. If one of your classes has it listed as a class skill, though, the maximum rank is raised to the normal. Human Paragon removes the extra cost per rank for (normally) cross-class skills.

Example: Joff is a Human Rogue 1. He takes 4 ranks in Tumble, 4 ranks in Balance, and 4 ranks also in Bluff (as well as others that are not relevant). Then his next level is in Sorcerer; the cap for all these is 5 ranks, because they were class skills for rogue, but if he wants to raise Tumble or Balance, he needs to spend two skill points for one rank (Bluff is a Sorcerer class skill). Next, he takes a level in Human Paragon, and one of his ten selected class skills is Tumble, which he also designates for Adaptive Learning; he can now gain ranks in Tumble at the usual 1-for-1 rate in all future levels.

Does that make more sense?

Yes, but that is some interesting miscellanea.

[Greenish]

Yes, but that is some interesting miscellanea.Several feats (such as Able Learner, Guerilla Warrior, and Guerilla Scout) make use of how the class skills function. Not to even mention PrC entries for various multiclass PrCs.

[Tanklin]

i'm almost 100% sure i read something like "once a class skill, always a class skill" for prestige classes...

The problem is ... when? where? i can't remember!

[KillingAScarab]

i'm almost 100% sure i read something like "once a class skill, always a class skill"You probably had a sane DM who thought people play the game to have fun, rather than ruin themsevles with a gauntlet of trivialities.

For the rest of us, be a human, take able learner, take a level of rogue and a level of bard. You now have class skill max ranks for every skill except handle animal, heal, ride, survival and autohypnosis, and only pay 1 skill point for any skill ever. If you ever take classes which have those skills on their list, congratulations you have won D&D 3.5.

[Divide by Zero]

For the rest of us, be a human, take able learner, take a level of rogue and a level of bardfactotum. You now have class skill max ranks for every skill except handle animal, heal, ride, survival and autohypnosis, and only pay 1 skill point for any skill ever.

Fixed it for you :smalltongue:

[KillingAScarab]

Fixed it for you :smalltongue:Why is everyone here such a fan of that class? It's like this was the author's website or something.[/sarcasm]

[jindra34]

Why is everyone here such a fan of that class? It's like this was the author's website or something.[/sarcasm]

In this case at least they have good reason. Given that it explicitly says EVERY skill is a class skill for it. Why spend two levels to get less when you can just spend 1?

[Deox]

Because it's balanced and fun?

Have you even played a Factotum? If the answer is yes, then you'd like them too.

[KillingAScarab]

Because it's balanced and fun?

Have you even played a Factotum? If the answer is yes, then you'd like them too.Hadn't heard of it until about two years ago, and I don't have access to Dungeonscape, so no.

[Deox]

Fair enough, sir!

[DementedFellow]

There is no contradiction, and the SRD has it right. What's more, the Human Paragon class feature is not worthless.

This is because cross-class skills have two restrictions: maximum rank invested, and skill points needed per rank. If one of your classes has it listed as a class skill, though, the maximum rank is raised to the normal. Human Paragon removes the extra cost per rank for (normally) cross-class skills.

Example: Joff is a Human Rogue 1. He takes 4 ranks in Tumble, 4 ranks in Balance, and 4 ranks also in Bluff (as well as others that are not relevant). Then his next level is in Sorcerer; the cap for all these is 5 ranks, because they were class skills for rogue, but if he wants to raise Tumble or Balance, he needs to spend two skill points for one rank (Bluff is a Sorcerer class skill). Next, he takes a level in Human Paragon, and one of his ten selected class skills is Tumble, which he also designates for Adaptive Learning; he can now gain ranks in Tumble at the usual 1-for-1 rate in all future levels.

Does that make more sense?

I just realized I've been playing the game wrong for years. Not to mention but my friends have been doing it wrong as well.

This is depressing.

[TuggyNE]

I just realized I've been playing the game wrong for years. Not to mention but my friends have been doing it wrong as well.

This is depressing.

I think nearly everyone comes to this sort of realization at some point (except the people who blithely continue playing things wrong). Take heart, though; misallocated skill points are a much smaller error than, say, giving wizards 3rd-level spells at level 3.

[KillingAScarab]

I just realized I've been playing the game wrong for years. Not to mention but my friends have been doing it wrong as well.

This is depressing.I'm interested to hear what your interpretation was. However, before that, I would like to ask you this: did everyone have fun while playing the game that way?

I think there was a D&D podcast where someone at Wizards said they sometimes hold playtesting focus groups with regular people. They let those people play the game without any interference, they just watch, and sometimes the groups interpret the rules quite differently. The takeaway was that if the group had fun, what does it matter if they didn't play correctly? Sure, the rules are there to try to balance things, but playing differently isn't always bad.